Vatican's Manner of Excommunication Is Rude :)

[Beryllos]

That’s a little more tricky. We have to be careful not to create martyrs in the court of public opinion. It can boost their position in the public’s estimation. People love martyrs, even those who are not true martyrs. That would come out looking like the bully Church picking on two faithful Catholics who are concerned about women’s rights and women’s health issues. Instead of fixing a problem, there is the potential of strengthening the culture of death. The Church has to navigate around this one with consistency, prudence, and do what she has to do, but do it at the right moment.

Sure, but isn’t the issue really that they (Biden and Pelosi) are not priests and do not claim to be speaking for the church? They support laws that allow and fund abortion services for those who want them. Their involvement is indirect in the sense that they do not get involved in any particular individual’s decision to get an abortion or perform an abortion. They are not trying to make anyone’s mind up for them, they are not forcing anyone to get an abortion, and they are not actually procuring or performing abortions. I see that they are culpable, if that is the right word, on account of enabling others to choose abortion. Is this sufficient grounds for excommunication? I doubt it.

 

[Elizium23]

Whether or not these politicians have incurred latae sententiae excommunication is possibly debatable, but it is a clear and plain fact that they come under the aegis of Canon 915 and that is the common argument, not for excommunication, but for the sacred ministers of Holy Communion to withhold it from manifest, obstinate grave sinners.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

My reaction to this is twofold; (1) why the move towards excommunication in practice that never was practiced the way it is now and (2) isn’t it kind of sad and “rude” that people are kicked out of our faith community without even a reason why -

One priest I know simply embraced post-modern theology and promoted original blessing (which was an Old Testament teaching much newer than Augustine’s original sin stuff) and the other was simply an Australian priest who was public about supporting gay marriage at the state level…

1. Why not? Just because this wonderful practice fell out of fashion it does not meant that it should not return.
2. I’m sure these people know why. ‘Simply’ promoting heresy requires understanding of one’s actions, some knowledge of theology and a big ego. I’m simply delighted that the pope is excommunicating troublemakers.

 

[JReducation]

Sure, but isn’t the issue really that they (Biden and Pelosi) are not priests and do not claim to be speaking for the church? They support laws that allow and fund abortion services for those who want them. Their involvement is indirect in the sense that they do not get involved in any particular individual’s decision to get an abortion or perform an abortion. They are not trying to make anyone’s mind up for them, they are not forcing anyone to get an abortion, and they are not actually procuring or performing abortions. I see that they are culpable, if that is the right word, on account of enabling others to choose abortion. Is this sufficient grounds for excommunication? I doubt it.

Yes this is sufficient grounds for excommunication, because they are formally culpable. To be formally culpable you can be the person who pulls the trigger or you can be the person who provides the gun knowing that it’s going to be used for murder.

In this case,they are providing the gun. They are providing the means to facilitate abortion. They’re not alone, but you can only excommunicate a Catholic. Canon Law has no authority over those who are not Catholic.

 

[JReducation]

My reaction to this is twofold; (1) why the move towards excommunication in practice that never was practiced the way it is now and
Trickster
bruce

This is a question that we don’t have a right to ask and the pope has no moral obligation to answer any other way than to simply say that he has divine authority to bind and unbind, to forgive or to withhold forgiveness and he chooses to exercise it. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition back him up on it.

Just because something has not been done does not mean that it may not be done, if that person (the pope) has a God-given right to do it.

Since this right comes from Christ himself, who are we to question, “Why?”

 

[QuestingKnight]

He set up a dissident church away from the bishop, which is schism.

He let his EMHCs give Communion to non-Catholics and even to a dog. That’s sacrilege and heresy.

And he’d been doing this stuff for years and years and years, and been warned repeatedly by the bishop, by the bishop’s removal of his faculties, and by the Vatican sending him tons and tons of letters asking him to appeal if he had any reasons for his actions at all, or to repent and be forgiven if he was ready to change…

People like this always say they’re surprised. But it’s not like they haven’t been warned and given plenty of time to change their minds. The Vatican moves slowly and sends tons of paperwork to these people. Often they actually send investigators to talk to them. All the canon law rules are easily available on the Internet, too.

If this guy was surprised by the outcome, then he’s also surprised by the sun coming up in the morning.

Well said. That’s my impression also.

My opinion, not directly related to this case: People who do evil have rationalised it in their own heads. When they get arrested, they’re outraged. They fight. They argue. Moral people scratch their heads over why someone would do X. Moral people don’t understand that evil people have shouted down their conscience with argument. It’s thus effectively silenced. They’ve justified their deeds to themselves. Some crooks will admit they’re wrong. Some will not, amazingly to moral people. I think that’s the basis of the ‘sociopath’; utter self-involvement and lack of empathy.

I suppose that’s how Evil started, from Lucifer onwards.

 

[Petaro]

Petaro, ease up here… I believe I said in the first sentence “if someone could get me up to speed on this”…that is got to be a good indicator that I am not trying to make any points; I’m just asking a question based on the facts that I do know…It’s not just the Australian priest I am talking about… I am talking about many theologians who have been excommunicated, there is a pattern emerging…and if it is true that there is no process, then that is not respectful, even if it comes from the Vatican itself…

No one is accusing anyone, I am simply stating an impression that I have based on what little I know…that is the whole point of this thread is to get up to speed…ok Petaro

I am happy that you are such a fierce warrior for the church though…

Bruce
Trickster

Sorry, Bruce. Came on too strong. I think that wise Franciscan brother said it all. (What a waste… should be a priest… probably too damn humble just to rub it in)

 

[St_Francis]

Petaro, ease up here… I believe I said in the first sentence “if someone could get me up to speed on this”…that is got to be a good indicator that I am not trying to make any points;

Well, the first sentence any of us read was your thread title saying: The Vatican’s Manner of Excommunicating is Rude. That seems fairly aggressive, no? Even with a smiley face, that was our first impression of your thoughts here.

Sometimes it’s better to put questions in the form of a question: Is the Vatican Being Rude… or I Don’t Understand Excommunication.

I’m just asking a question based on the facts that I do know…It’s not just the Australian priest I am talking about… I am talking about many theologians who have been excommunicated, there is a pattern emerging…and if it is true that there is no process, then that is not respectful, even if it comes from the Vatican itself…

No one is accusing anyone, I am simply stating an impression that I have based on what little I know…that is the whole point of this thread is to get up to speed…ok Petaro

I am happy that you are such a fierce warrior for the church though…

Bruce
Trickster

 

[10gr8kids]

(2) the reason for excommunications are not given…people apparently just recieve a letter stating that they have been excommunicated!

One priest I know simply embraced post-modern theology and promoted original blessing (which was an Old Testament teaching much newer than Augustine’s original sin stuff) and the other was simply an Australian priest who was public about supporting gay marriage at the state level…

Trickster
bruce

It struck me as kind of odd that they don’t know why they were ‘kicked out’ but you do.

 

[St_Francis]

“recant” sounds rather draconian and medieval

Yes, this is true, but why? Because our society’s way of thinking has moved so far away from the Catholic way of thinking.

I think that this is related to the appeal that what you called experiential theologies hold for you.

Many of those who had never heard Revealed Truth did the best they could with limited information. Some did better with nothing but natural knowledge than others do who are raised Catholic! But when they learned the truth, they *gave up their errors. *

We do not think it is cultural imperialism or ethnocentric or anything like that when we teach aboriginal peoples something like higher math, do we? We don’t think we have to add in whatever they were thinking or using in order to make it more attractive to them, do we? No, we just put it out there as it is.

Catholicism is a set of truths the same way math is a set of truths, but Catholicism has been marginalized to the point we think of it as mere opinion, a decration in our lives rather than a foundation stone of reality.

I have been listening to 2 series of talks about philosophical thought over the last few centuries, and I like them because not onky can i see the dismantling of Catholic thinking, but i can see the philosophical errors popping up in everyday life.

Enlightenment --The two about philosophy were the first two by Prof. Wunsch. They have rearranged the site since then and I cannot guarantee that the first two listed are his. The other two are more about the history of the French Revolution, iirc.

Roots of Modernism --These are terrific, but the man’s style of speaking took some getting used to for me. Since he usually lectures college students, I imagine he’s had to develop attention-getting ways of speaking!

I have listened to these many times in order to get everything they say–there’s a lot there. Hope you like them

But St Francis… I think you are correct…I sense that there must be some sort of idea…I think the priest in Australia thought that he might be defrocked but he was surprised to be outright excommunicated…

Bruce
Trickster

 

[SurfingTheTiber]

I may well be wrong but my recollection is that Matthew Fox wasn’t excommunicated by Rome but dismissed by the Dominican order. By this time he had already founded the Center for Creation Spirituality and chose to pursue that path over continued obedience to his superiors. He was a very popular author and speaker. He might have found that difficult to leave behind. However, still feeling that official clergy status was important (interesting given much of his anti-clerical sentiments) he opted for ordination in the Episcopal church. I think it’s noteworthy that Fox keeps talking and writing about the Catholic Church all these years later.

Here’s an entry from EWTN: ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/FOX.HTM

 

[Beryllos]

Whether or not these politicians have incurred latae sententiae excommunication is possibly debatable, but it is a clear and plain fact that they come under the aegis of Canon 915 and that is the common argument, not for excommunication, but for the sacred ministers of Holy Communion to withhold it from manifest, obstinate grave sinners.

Yes this is sufficient grounds for excommunication, because they are formally culpable. To be formally culpable you can be the person who pulls the trigger or you can be the person who provides the gun knowing that it’s going to be used for murder.

In this case,they are providing the gun. They are providing the means to facilitate abortion. They’re not alone, but you can only excommunicate a Catholic. Canon Law has no authority over those who are not Catholic.

Thank you both for the clarifications.

 

[bben15]

I’m assuming your name is Bruce?

You can’t get “kicked out.” You can be excluded from the sacraments. All the excommunicants have to do in order for the excommunication to be lifted is to recant their views.

Also, you don’t get excommunicated without knowing why. Normally, you don’t get excommunicated without receiving countless warnings. That Australian priest didn’t need an explanation. He knows why he is excommunicated. He has probably received countless warnings, but chose not to listen to them. As a result, he is excommunicated.

 

[trickster]

My area is Ascetical and Mystical Theology. At least that’s what it was called in my day. Today, many universities call it Spiritual Theology, same thing…
I bet you $5.00 and a keg of beer that Clare had no idea what either of those meant. However, Clare had such a powerful devotion to the Blessed Sacrament that she thwarted off a bunch a rapist soldiers by raising a ciboria over the monastery wall. She created perpetual adoration for her nuns, long before the rest of the Church had it. She was also praying Marian prayers and hymns long before the Rosary existed. Did she need a Eucharistic Theology or a Marian Theology? Not at all. Did she need a Franciscan theology to understand Francis? Not at all. In fact, she understood him better than he understood himself. She often told him what God wanted from him. He, like a small child in a state of wonder would look at her and go, “Ohhhhhhhhh” :newidea:

Thanks JReducation…first of all you may note that I have had to delete part of your posting, the reason for that is the number of letters between your posting and mine is that it always exceeds that 6000 character thing …

You bring up a most awesome point; that is you have set my mind on thinking why am I saying “Aboriginal Theology”…I have not meant it in the sense of Spiritual Theology or Dogmatic Theology…I have only used the term “aboriginal theology” from the beginning as a simple reference point to what I am talking about.

In fact, weaving what the Native American / Aboriginal Canadian community have to say about their catholic belief and experience is MUCH better off under the umbrella’s of those more established theologies cause as you say, the thinking, ideas, concepts, proposals are already on the table…and we need to read experience in context of those more universal ideas. Aboriginal people are human, we share much of what the human condition generally has to offer, so it makes sense to me to incorporate this line of study within existing theological umbrellas…so you make a whole lot of sense to me… I need to go back an pray, reflect and think about this…but I sense you are leading me in a good direction.

The second thing is that each theological approach has its general and specific disciplines (do they not? I am kind of assuming that)…and “theology focusing on the indigenous and catholic experience” would be much richer to be exposed to and in conversation with all of the disciplines and hermenuetics (spelling) offered … and rather than approaching it ONLY from aboriginal experience, this approach under existing theological schools can bring out , articulate and expand understanding on the human condition as experienced by North America’s indigneous population.

You have got me thinking and that is what I like about your postings…I am actually honoured that a PhD in theology would take the time to write in response to my postings as you have consistently done for years now.

Megwetch (Thank You in the Algonquin language)

Trickster
bruce Ferguson

 

[trickster]

To keep this to 25 words or less–I’ll simply say that it’s about time! Any priest who is pro gay marriage knows in his heart and soul that he is not in line with church law. They choose to do so anyway and they cause scandal everywhere in their path. I keep hoping that our pope will work his way around to excommunicating Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi too.

I like Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi! Starrsmother, you make a good point, also I don’t think the priest is at peace within the framework of Catholic teaching, so he will obviously follow his heart and conscience…all I wish is that he would stop pretending to be a Catholic priest and find his own way and place to share his ideas, beliefs and so forth.

There would be many gay people as an example whose spirituality can start to grow again simply because they find one man who believes in them; Jesus told his disciples not to critisize the man outside the apostles who was healing in Jesus name, John had said in his text that no book could hold or tell about the work of the Holy Spirit, so it is not for me to judge this priest.

All excommunication to me is a statement that the person and the church are no longer on the same page; it used to mean in the popular mind that the church has “bound them” to hell… not sure if this true or not…so excommunication is not the end of the world, it is simply a line in the sand that says you are catholic within the meaning of the established church or your not…

I have seen other priest like Matthew Fox move on to great theological movements, ideas, expanding thinking on many things; I see him at peace and in full dedication to his conscience…so I wish this Australian priest well and honor the work that he is doing in the gay community and so forth…

Remember our old saying in the seventies “live and let live”?

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

 

[trickster]

This is reminding me of an online game I play where people regularly come to the forums screaming “I wuz band 4 no rezun!!1”

I think that “no reason given” is a mischaracterization of what happens here and others have demonstrated why. I will be the first to admit that when I have gotten in big trouble, sometimes it is hard to see the reasons why, but hindsight is 20/20, and if I step back and think about it, I can point to the events leading up to my trouble and realize that people have tried to intercede and intervene and pull me back from the edge, but I did not listen. Young children need to be told the reason for being disciplined because otherwise they will not learn from the experience, but when we become adults we are expected to have a properly formed conscience and, barring mental illness or the like, we have an understanding of actions and consequences thereof.

It is super-amusing that someone calls the Vatican of this particular pontificate rude. It seems more like a Benedictine epithet, perhaps the mean old Emeritus’ curia still lingers on and you resent that element of it. But come on. Rome is a government (among other things, let’s not reduce it) and governments reserve the right to be harsh when the situation calls for it. I look around and I see many conservatives complaining about how lax Rome is when it comes to dissenting politicians and dissenting religious and ad-libbing priests, and then just one of them gets the hook, and it’s the liberals with a spittle-flecked nutty about the mean old men in dresses calling the shots.

Look at it this way. You can’t arrest all the speeders and throw them in jail. But you set up a speed trap and pull a few over and the rest of them fall into line, scared straight. Hopefully the people close to this one excommunicated Australian priest will re-examine their doctrine and consciences and come to the conclusion that obedience is better than Hell. In my diocese, one sister excommunicated herself over an abortion. This had lasting fallout and sent a very clear message that our bishop meant business about being pro-life. It was the straw that broke the camel’s back and I hope and pray that others saw the error of their ways, not wanting to end up like the good Sister, and recanted pro-abortion views rather than excommunicate themselves too.

Also remember as I hinted above that some excommunications are latae sententiae. This means that the commission of the very sin causes the excommunication automatically. The Church may make a determination that it happened but it doesn’t need to call a tribunal or issue a sentence, the penalty is already in effect.

Hi Elezium23…I agree with your points generally. I will say that as the original poster I was not saying that Francis is rude; I love Francis very much he has given me much hope for “aboriginal theological development” and a more inclusive church for the marginalized which includes our people as the original inhabitants of the America’s…

Yes, I posted this cause I have seen twice the claim that no reason was given; and the respondents to the posting have been very helpful; the church is clear on its teaching and if you speak out against one teaching or more, that is the “raison” for excommunication, pure and simple…people know their conscience.

Like I said in the other post, I respect people who leave the church or “excommunicate themselves” because it is an honest statement that what the church teaches is not what their conscience will allow them to believe…so they move on and go on to do great things; my heart and support is always for former catholics who for whatever reason cannot breath in our church…love is unconditional…I cannot excommunicate or remove excommunication personally, but I have all the power in the world to love and respect people who make those choices, some whom leave for very honourable reasons…

Bruce Ferguson
trickster

 

[trickster]

Whether or not these politicians have incurred latae sententiae excommunication is possibly debatable, but it is a clear and plain fact that they come under the aegis of Canon 915 and that is the common argument, not for excommunication, but for the sacred ministers of Holy Communion to withhold it from manifest, obstinate grave sinners.

Yeah, so throw the book at them Elizium? That seems sad…how the H*&&LL do you know about Canon 915

How many of us regular catholics can even find the canon book

Take care Elizium23…love your passion here.

bruce ferguson
trickster

 

[trickster]

1. Why not? Just because this wonderful practice fell out of fashion it does not meant that it should not return.
2. I’m sure these people know why. ‘Simply’ promoting heresy requires understanding of one’s actions, some knowledge of theology and a big ego. I’m simply delighted that the pope is excommunicating troublemakers.

Yes, i agree with you. This was the point of me posting it as the original poster, cause “excommunication” is not a thing I or other catholics put a whole lot of thinking into…I am not catholic cause I fear hell or excommunication I am one cause I love Jesus and the church makes sense to me…

Cheerz my friend

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[Elizium23]

It’s not a question of throwing the book (or in this case an easy http link) but a question of the Church enforcing one of her more important canons: that which safeguards against sacrilege of the Holy Eucharist. There are not too many American bishops willing to wield this authority over sinners - even pre-Franciscan pontificate - and I am beginning to doubt if they will ever see the light now.

 

[Cider]

The only thing “unkind”, was how long he got away with what he was doing.