Vatican's Secretary of State: “The events in Iraq are not a clash between Islam and Christianity”

[eltoro89]

Sadly, I think America and Britain created many radicals during the last Iraqi war. Thousand of innocent men, women and children died as a result of our invasion. We destabilised the region; there are around two million refugees, many fled Iraq to go to Syria. . How will they get justice, who will compensate them for their loss of family members, homes, jobs education, doctors etc?

There were no WMDs, we invaded on a flimsy pretext, if America and Britain spent billions or possibly trillions on the war, we should have achieved a far better outcome.

Now we live in fear of reprisal, and we blame radicals.

We pray for justice for all people, the same God created each and every one of us, the same God hears all our prayers, despite our differences.

I believe we need to strive for a greater interfaith cooperation.

Forgive me, but I wonder how many dollars of education James Foley took from any ‘radicals’ and what his death did to alleviate the struggles caused by western foreign policy? And if indeed this a solely a problem of western foreign policy, why haven’t any of the other marginalized, downtrodden, and disadvantage groups started beheading children and journalists on Youtube? There is more to this than what can be claimed solely on the basis of de-stabalization.

I will say this, the Vatican is correct in that this is not a Christianity versus peace-loving everyday practicing Muslim issue. It is, however, an issue with Christianity and the institution of Islam itself. Not because of the faithful, benevolent Muslims who follow it, but because of those who lead it and their lack of willingness to take a major stand against the pure injustices that are being done. Until all of the leaders of the historically conservative and anti-west Muslim countries make a bigger effort to thwart out terrorism, then yes, there is an issue between the institution of Islam and Christianity. If it were only westerners being excecuted, I might be more inclined to agree with you. But ISIS executes anyone whose ideas or beliefs does not meld with what they think the caliphate should be.

 

[DaveBj]

Sadly, I think America and Britain created many radicals during the last Iraqi war. . . snip

I will not argue with you, because I cannot :sad_yes:

 

[manualman]

Sadly, I think America and Britain created many radicals during the last Iraqi war. Thousand of innocent men, women and children died as a result of our invasion. We destabilised the region; there are around two million refugees, many fled Iraq to go to Syria. . How will they get justice, who will compensate them for their loss of family members, homes, jobs education, doctors etc?

There were no WMDs, we invaded on a flimsy pretext, if America and Britain spent billions or possibly trillions on the war, we should have achieved a far better outcome.

Now we live in fear of reprisal, and we blame radicals.

This might be remotely plausible if said radicals were determinedly hunting down Americans around the world. But they are slaughtering IRAQIs: Chaldeans, Yezidis and even Shi’ite muslims.

Superpowers always create problems and tensions. But they also get turned into scapegoats to blame for unrelated things too. You’re guilty of scapegoating in this case.

What this really is is a civil war inside Islam that the west can’t do much about except make it worse. And IMO we make it worse with every supertanker that leaves the Persian gulf full of oil and returns stuffed with cash. Forget global warming, we need to eliminate oil as a fuel because it’s what’s really funding global terror. Turn of the middle east money pipelines and global terror will go bankrupt inside of a decade.

 

[manualman]

Most Muslims aren’t radicalised terrorists or supporters of such, and it turns out that most radical Muslim terrorists aren’t particularly faithful to Islam. They generally aren’t particularly ‘religious,’ as we see from a recent study.

Edit: Oops, I misread you. I had thought you were saying the peaceful muslims were the bad muslims. The following is for those sorts, not you.

Don’t do this. Why on earth would you assist the jihadis in their quest to define their version of the “real” Islam? As catholics, we know that “real Islam” is an oxymoron, right? So if there are lots of muslims in the world who have found ways to interpret Muhammed’s teachings and actions in reasonable and non-violent ways, why label them as “bad muslims?” If anything, we should label them as the GOOD muslims!

It’s good to point out and be wary of troubling passages and apparent teachings in the Koran, but don’t assist the jihadis on their side of the Islamic civil war.

I think the above is what shapes the Vatican’s statement in the OP. They’re refusing to affirm the assertion that the only “faithful muslim” is a homicidal muslim. I get why some people want to sound the alarm on that and I share some of their concerns about Islamic teaching and culture, but I’m not persuaded yet that the peaceful muslims will lose their civil war with the jihadis. In the meantime, we just have to be vigilant, not paranoid.

 

[MartinJordan]

Let’s look at the full context of the question and answer:

There are people who report on the events in Iraq as a clash between Christianity and Islam. Is this a correct view or is it an oversimplification?

“I believe it is an oversimplification. Recently, I have been reading some reports from the nuncio in Syria that explained how many Muslims are suffering for these events and are supportive of Christians. So this is definitely not a clash between Islam and Christianity. There are people within Islam, and I believe that they are the majority, who refuse these brutal and inhuman methods. Unfortunately, some factions make them their own but I believe that they are not condoned by most of the other Muslims. We hope that they will also speak up against this, to make a clear distinction between what can and what cannot be done, we hope that the Muslim world speaks up”.

I don’t see what there is to disagree with in what he said. It is a clash between some Muslims and some Christians, but it is not a clash between Islam and Christianity. That’s an important distinction to make.

Agreed.

MJ

 

[graciew]

aina.org/news/20140729162850.htm
Muslim Iraq news anchorwoman wears cross in support of Christians

aleteia.org/en/world/news/report-muslim-speaks-out-for-christians-of-mosul-and-is-assassinated-5798918730285056
Muslim speaks out for Christians in Mosul and is assassinated

I believe that the Vatican’s Secretary of State knows what he is saying. I could not find any more as of the above in English to post,but I have seen another well known Muslim reporter wearing a Tshirt with the nun symbol on TV and speaking in favor of Christianity. It does take courage to do this.

As I see it,If radical Islamism is to be eradicated or moderated on the long run ,the change needs to come from within. If we do not support the ones who are to bring about the change in their own religion nor acknowledge nor respect them,it will never happen. And not as a posture,but as genuine respect.

 

[graciew]

http://translate.google.com/transla...sticia-contra-los-cristianos-5857175331143680

Iraqi Muslim reporterI will not keep silent against injustice against Christians

She launches a campaign " we are all Christians"

http://translate.google.com/transla...-la-letra-nun-en-su-camiseta-5870282229153792

Lebanon: known presenter displays letter nun on her shirt.

Translated from Spanish with google translate. Not perfect but can be understood.
God bless you.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

eltoro89;

Forgive me, but I wonder how many dollars of education James Foley took from any ‘radicals’ and what his death did to alleviate the struggles caused by western foreign policy?

By all accounts James Foley was an innocent man, and should not have faced his death in the way he did. By all accounts, thousands of innocent Iraqi died as the result of American and British military action, they should also have been spared from their unjust deaths.

Justice must be for all people, regardless of race or creed.

I will say this, the Vatican is correct in that this is not a Christianity versus peace-loving everyday practicing Muslim issue. It is, however, an issue with Christianity and the institution of Islam itself. **Not because of the faithful, benevolent Muslims who follow it, but because of those who lead it and their lack of willingness to take a major stand against the pure injustices that are being done. **

9 -11 was evil, but when you repay evil, with more evil, you create even more injustice.

 

[The_Wizard]

Beyond the executions, extortion, and so forth, ISIS is also doing a better-than-expected job of providing basic social services. So while there are clearly some highly visible people who became involved for strictly bloodthirsty reasons, it’s also quite likely that there are some other people who are attracted to ISIS because they see it as their region’s best chance for providing stability, law, and order (specifically to Sunni Islam). These not-bloodthirsty people are most likely a major part of the reason why social services and basic government are being taken care of in the first place, and it seems equally likely that the more-bloodthirsty members see the value of these people to their survival as an organization and are working to position them as well as possible.

The same could be said of NAZI Germany and nazism!

 

[rfournier103]

I would respectfully ask the Secratery of State just WHOM the clash is between, if not those two groups?

However, it IS wise not to publicly frame it as a clash of religions so that a wider conflict (war?) does not erupt globally.

I am DISGUSTED that Muslim clerics and holy men do NOTHING to halt these atrocities. They are either impotent in controlling the “men” that they are supposed to be leaders of; or they approve of murder, rape, and torture of innocent people.

The next imam that speaks up will be the first one.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

According to Iraqi family members of a friend, ISIS is robbing banks as well as terrorizing Christians. They are more of a gang of thugs and criminals using religion as an excuse. They are supposedly being backed by powerful Saudi families.

 

[Elizium23]

According to Iraqi family members of a friend, ISIS is robbing banks as well as terrorizing Christians. They are more of a gang of thugs and criminals using religion as an excuse. They are supposedly being backed by powerful Saudi families.

No, they are faithful Muslims discharging the responsibilities placed upon them by Muhammad and his Quran along with the Hadiths.

Just as faithful Christians exhibit radical love and goodwill when fully living the commandments of Christ and the tenets of the faith, and just as a majority of Christians believe in contraception, abortion, and cruelty to neighbor, thus do a majority of Muslims ignore the call of Islam to complete submission to the will of Allah, conversion by the sword, taqiyya to conceal their true motives, and constant warfare against infidels.

 

[SteveVH]

By all accounts James Foley was an innocent man

Not by all accounts. That is simply not accurate. You might want to wait until all the evidence is in. Justice for all, right?

By all accounts, thousands of innocent Iraqi died as the result of American and British military action, they should also have been spared from their unjust deaths.

The death of innocents is always deplorable, even when a war may be just. I regret that we went to Iraq as well. I regret even more that we left it unprotected and susceptible to this evil.

Justice must be for all people, regardless of race or creed.

Amen.

9 -11 was evil, but when you repay evil, with more evil, you create even more injustice.

Defending one’s self or one’s country against an aggressor is never unjust. Doing nothing can be the worst option of all.

 

[eltoro89]

Eric, I’m not sure if you read my post wrong or I’m reading yours wrong. I didn’t say that James Foley wasn’t innocent, I was replying to another comment earlier who claimed that what he got was the result of American intervention in the ME.

As for those of you who think any actions taken by Americans lends credence to what ISIS has done, please tell me what role Syrian and Iraqi Christians had in 9-11 that justifies this behavior? They are the one being persecuted. Not white Americans.

 

[SteveVH]

Could you please enlighten us as to what evidence might surface suggesting James Foley deserved to be decapitated for the whole of youtube and all of the internet to see?

Oh, my Lord. I am so sorry. I was thinking of a completely different case. I retract everything I said. You are absolutely correct.

I have heard many names for what ISIS is doing, but “defending one’s country against an aggressor” isn’t one of them.

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by Eric Hyom
By all accounts, thousands of innocent Iraqi died as the result of American and British military action, they should also have been spared from their unjust deaths.

I was not addressing or defending ISIS for crying out loud.

 

[eltoro89]

Oh, my Lord. I am so sorry. I was thinking of a completely different case. I retract everything I said. You are absolutely correct.

I was responding to this:

I was not addressing or defending ISIS for crying out loud.

Yeah, I got it now, my bad! It’s just with your James Foley comment I assumed you somehow were trying to justify the evidence by saying he was an aggressor. My bad. I edited my original post.

 

[SteveVH]

Yeah, I got it now, my bad! It’s just with your James Foley comment I assumed you somehow were trying to justify the evidence by saying he was an aggressor. My bad. I edited my original post.

Thanks, and I deleted my post in its entirety. Thank God I still had time.