VBS....Nuns taught about St. Maria Goretti

[guiltyofdoubt]

Normally this wouldn’t seem like a big deal, except my daughter is 6.

It was an awfully graphic story to tell to kids that age in my opinion.

The Vacation Bible School at our parish is being taught by a couple of Sisters from a Dominican order. They are visiting for the week.

My daughter can’t stop talking about how St. Maria got stabbed 14 times, and how her father died from a mosquito bite (malaria). She is already deathly afraid of flying bugs and mosquitoes, and this has made it worse.

Just surprised that this story was relayed to kids this young in detail.

 

[Kindness]

It certainly doesn’t seem prudent or age appropriate. Young children do not have our understanding of the world. I would not relate this to my just turned 11 year old as she would find it very disturbing. At the moment she still is unaware of abortion and rape. Even my soon to be 14 year old daughter would be very disturbed and upset.

Our 7 year old son was told how dangerous smoking is for your health at school and now he is terrified to be within sight of a smoker! So these messages can backfire.

Personally I would contact the order of sisters that came and tell them that relating a horrible murder of a young girl is definitely not appropriate for any child under middle school age.

 

[Cat]

It certainly doesn’t seem prudent or age appropriate. Young children do not have our understanding of the world. I would not relate this to my just turned 11 year old as she would find it very disturbing. At the moment she still is unaware of abortion and rape. Even my soon to be 14 year old daughter would be very disturbed and upset.

Our 7 year old son was told how dangerous smoking is for your health at school and now he is terrified to be within sight of a smoker! So these messages can backfire.

Personally I would contact the order of sisters that came and tell them that relating a horrible murder of a young girl is definitely not appropriate for any child under middle school age.

I agree with this.

When my daughter was about 5 or 6, she watched a family show (Family Matters–the one with Steve Urkel!), which was one of the most decent shows ever on TV, even compared to the old family comedies.

On one of the Family Matters episodes, Carl (the father of the family) was shot (he was a cop). He was in the hospital, and fully recovered, and there was a lot of comedy associated with the episode.

But that night, in the middle of the night, our daughter woke up screaming, and when we ran into the room, she cried out, “I don’t want Carl to be shot!”

For the next few weeks, she didn’t sleep well. Our city is a violent one (#1 in crime in Illinois), and we happened to be going through a rough few months with a record number of shootings in our city (I believe we were up to 22 by summer). We didn’t read the papers or watch the news with our children around, but they couldn’t help but see and hear. Our daughter was terrified that someone would break into our house and shoot us all.

We ended up taking her to a therapist (we told her it was a “sleep doctor”), and the therapist helped our daughter to be able to sleep peacefully again. It took about six sessions.

There is no need for a graphic telling of the story of St. Marie Goretti. I think the order should be contacted and rebuked for scaring little ones. They may not realize what they are doing.

St. Francis and all his animals is a much better choice for 6-year olds!

And please consider taking the little one to a therapist if she continues to obsess about the violence. A good therapist will help her to get this out of her mind.

 

[coachdennis]

The story of Maria Goretti can be told without the grusome details to a younger audience, but I first heard about her in second or third grade in my Catholic school.

On a bigger scale note there something ironic about this thread: when the Catholic Church doesn’t teach about its saints and its history it is accused by some on this board of watering down its faith, and when it does well then it is accused of being too graphic, too deep, too (whatever fill in the blanks)…

Just saying…

 

[bitterhope]

The story of Maria Goretti can be told without the grusome details to a younger audience, but I first heard about her in second or third grade in my Catholic school.

On a bigger scale note there something ironic about this thread: when the Catholic Church doesn’t teach about its saints and its history it is accused by some on this board of watering down its faith, and when it does well then it is accused of being too graphic, too deep, too (whatever fill in the blanks)…

Just saying…

Yeah, I see that too. Can’t win no matter what I guess.

I’ve taught my own kids about the lives of the saints, including Maria Goretti, starting around age 3. I don’t sugar coat things. They know that the world is ugly and bad things happen. My dad was a police officer and I knew he could get shot. My husband is a soldier, my kids know he might not make it home. People don’t need to shelter their kids from reality all the time. When the real world finally slaps us across the face we need to be prepared, not that much more hurt and shocked because we never realized that bad things can possibly happen. Life is hard, why not teach our kids that instead of allowing the world to do it for us?

 

[Xantippe]

The story of Maria Goretti can be told without the grusome details to a younger audience, but I first heard about her in second or third grade in my Catholic school.

On a bigger scale note there something ironic about this thread: when the Catholic Church doesn’t teach about its saints and its history it is accused by some on this board of watering down its faith, and when it does well then it is accused of being too graphic, too deep, too (whatever fill in the blanks)…

Just saying…

It doesn’t sound like the OP’s daughter has gotten anything positive out of this experience.

 

[FrenzyJen]

I remember learning about her very young also. Perhaps it is just the changing nature of parenting nowadays. Though I learned about abortion very young as well, so this probably didn’t seem as gruesome compared to that.

 

[mommamaree]

I have been pondering this, trying to think about the different perspectives. It sounds like the OP’s daughter is an especially tender-hearted and/or sensitive child. It probably affected her deeply to hear about St. Maria Goretti. Her particular needs are what matters most at this time. Plenty of talks and reassurances are likely necessary for her, since she has been so rattled by this.

That being said, I am not sure that it was inappropriate for the children to be told about the saint by the nun. I have allowed my own young daughter to read saint books since she was capable of reading, and before that, I read them to her. We did come across St. Maria Goretti’s story, and we did discuss it. But, because of the fact that we had already been talking to her about purity and modesty and “good touch, bad touch” as well as the concepts of murder and abortion, safe adults vs. unsafe adults, etc the story of this saint was entirely appropriate in the context of our family. My oldest daughter is also a very sensitive and tender-hearted child, so any of these big truths lead to weeks of repeated discussion. It is just part of how I must parent this particular child, and it doesn’t bother me that she is disturbed and needs those reassurances.
The world is a disturbing place. Ignorance and innocence are not the same things. For my own children, I have chosen the path of introducing them to big truths that they will have to grow into, with my support and guidance. I want my children to know that they are allowed to say no to someone who wishes to use them sexually, and that it is not their fault if they are approached or coerced. I feel that they cannot know that unless I inform them of the dangers before they leave the safety of my home.
Does that make sense? We acknowledge the evil in the world in our conversations while they are still young, and we don’t watch or participate in things that glorify violence or debauchery, in hopes that they are better equipped when they see evil confronting them face-to-face.
Anyway, even if you disagree with my method and believe it would not work for you or your family, I just want to say I understand how hard it is when our children struggle with a big truth. It is hard. We want to shield them from the hurtful realities of this world, because we love them so much. I hope that you are able to find a way to comfort and reassure your daughter. Perhaps it might help to focus on the love of St. Maria Goretti, who forgave her attacker (who later repented and converted and became a religious brother)? Her love extends to all of us who call upon her for aid. Your daughter has a very real friend in heaven who understands the difficulties of growing up as a girl and who wants to help her get to heaven. Perhaps in that way, you could assist her in transforming her fear into a devotion to a beloved saint. God bless!

 

[UbiCaritas]

OP, I quite see your concerns, but I also like what mommamaree had to say.

My take on it is that while this saint’s story could be very disturbing to some kids your daughter’s age, it really depends on both the kid and the context, much like sex ed. We’d probably all agree, for example, that all six-year-olds should know the concepts of good vs bad touch and private areas of the body, and also know that if someone touches or behaves inappropriately with them, they should tell mom or dad. However, some six-year-olds are ready for more information about sex, while some are blissfully ignorant of anything beyond “only mom and my doctor are allowed to look at these areas”–and that’s why sex ed is something that should be taught by parents and tailored specifically to each kid, rather than in a school setting.

It seems to me that St. Maria Goretti’s story is tied very closely to this kind of thing, and should be taught by parents if at all at that age rather than by teachers. There are so many other saints’ stories out there for kids to hear about that aren’t nearly so intertwined with sex; this was really a poor choice, methinks, on the no-doubt-well-meaning sister’s part.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

The story of Maria Goretti can be told without the grusome details to a younger audience, but I first heard about her in second or third grade in my Catholic school.

On a bigger scale note there something ironic about this thread: when the Catholic Church doesn’t teach about its saints and its history it is accused by some on this board of watering down its faith, and when it does well then it is accused of being too graphic, too deep, too (whatever fill in the blanks)…

Just saying…

There’s a difference between irony and inappropriateness. There were saints who underwent bloody tortures, who were flailed alive, etc. but I fail to see how not exposing 6-year-olds to such stories equates to watering down the faith. Surely at age 6 thee are enough things to teach about the Faith, about Jesus, and upcoming First Communion without dealing in blood, violence, and torture. There is time for that later.

 

[LSK]

The first time I read St Maria’s story I was 8.

It can be a little shocking, but we were raised on all the stories of the martyrs when I was growing up.

In my neighborhood, the Catholic kids did not play cowboys and indians…not kidding:

we played Saints and Martyrs.

 

[mommamaree]

There’s a difference between irony and inappropriateness. There were saints who underwent bloody tortures, who were flailed alive, etc. but I fail to see how not exposing 6-year-olds to such stories equates to watering down the faith. Surely at age 6 thee are enough things to teach about the Faith, about Jesus, and upcoming First Communion without dealing in blood, violence, and torture. There is time for that later.

My children have already talked about some saints who were flayed alive. In their children’s book of saints, those saints are depicted carrying a skin suit over their shoulder like a sash. When I was asked to read it aloud for them, they discovered the awful truth. Yet, after the initial shock, they were impressed, as they are with all the saints and martyrs who valiantly gave up everything for Jesus. They love to discuss the bravery and humility of St. Peter who requested to be crucified upside-down, because he felt he was too unworthy to be executed in the same manner as our Lord Jesus. They discuss the fact that St. Paul had to be beheaded because he was a Roman citizen, and therefore could not be crucified. St. Paul is often depicted with a sword. St. Sebastian is depicted as impaled by arrows to a tree. St. Andrew is shown with an X-shape cross because he was crucified that way instead of the T-shape cross. There are so many more stories like this that children can appreciate. St. Joan of Arc was burnt at the stake, yet she never wavered. Some saints had their eyes gouged out, like St. Lucy, whose name means light, and who became the patron saint of the blind. Some saints are depicted with a bloody throat. Some are shown with a bloody dress and it is said that her breasts were cut off as torture before execution. These are the realities of our Faith, presented in a book written and published for children, and sold in just about every Catholic book shop I have ever shopped. I am amazed at how much I have learnt and internalized about these heroic saints and martyrs just by talking with my children and listening to their childish conversations about it. I think it impresses upon them the preciousness of their faith, and that one must be willing to give up everything for it. They start to own it for themselves. It is their faith, and it is worth fighting for and worth dying for.

 

[adawgj]

Truth hurts sometimes. I remember reading martyr stories of saints at a young age. No matter what the detail was I didn’t have any emotional feelings about it. It’s better to be taught than having it watered down. When I went to VBS we learned about martyrs and nobody seemed to get all feelingsy.

Pretty cool to have Dominican nuns teaching.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I don’t think that a story about an attempted rape on an 11-year-old is appropriate subject matter for young children. Generally, I am not against children hearing stories with some violence, such as martyrs dying for the faith, as long as the details are not too graphic and are kept age-appropriate. (Even fairy tales and many traditional children’s stories could be considered rather “violent,” and I think most of those are fine for children.)

But this particular saint story is just not one that I would feel comfortable sharing with or attempting to explain to my 6-year-old, considering the dark, sexual subtext, and I would guess that many parents would feel the same way. For that reason, it seems a very odd choice by the nuns, considering how many hundreds of Bible stories and saint stories they had to choose from.

 

[mommamaree]

I agree that the specifics of rape should not be communicated. When I talked about these things with my oldest, who is 9 now, but was younger at the time, I explained it more from a general perspective. He was guilty of the vice of lust (she had to memorize all the capital vices for first grade religion) and he attempted to do impure things to her. She defended not only her purity but fought for his as well, repeatedly reminding him it is a sin.

Another poster mentioned that such a story is best left to be shared between parent and child, especially for young children, and I think she has a good point. I know how to phrase things in such a way for my own children, but other teachers might not be able to know their students well enough, as a parent would. So while I have chosen to share the story carefully with my child, it is a very delicate situation for anyone else to attempt to share that with young students.

Guiltyofdoubt,
How is your daughter doing today? I think it is a good thing she is talking to you about all of this. I hope you don’t mind that I posted in your thread repeated times today. God has blessed me with lots of little girls, so this thread just had been on my mind a lot today. I will pray for your daughter!

 

[naomily]

I’m a bit disturbed that no one here seems to be concerned that a little girl has been traumatized. You’re all going on about how YOU were fine with graphic stories and theorizing wildly about how not discussing rape with 6 six years amounts to near-Protestantism, but let’s keep in mind that far from an esoteric discussion, this is about an actual CHILD, who was SCARED by what is, quite frankly, a very disturbing story.

OP, I’m praying that your daughter finds peace.

 

[Cat]

There’s a difference between irony and inappropriateness. There were saints who underwent bloody tortures, who were flailed alive, etc. but I fail to see how not exposing 6-year-olds to such stories equates to watering down the faith. Surely at age 6 thee are enough things to teach about the Faith, about Jesus, and upcoming First Communion without dealing in blood, violence, and torture. There is time for that later.

Amen.

We need to respect our child’s innocence and be alert for “readiness” when it comes to teaching them.

This applies to all things that we teach children. E.g., most 6-year olds are not “ready” to learn how to stand at the BBQ and flip hamburgers. They’re not big enough physically.

But most 6-year olds can arrange the fruit in the dish, or stir the batter for the cupcakes, etc. I said “most”–there are some 6-year olds who don’t have the hand-eye coordination and will spill it all over themselves. That’s OK, too, but why not just let them play with toys that will help them develop that hand-eye coordination, and when they are “ready,” then let them have fun learning the skills of the kitchen? Of course, if you have a lot of patience and don’t mind cleaning up messes and most importantly, you can convey a positive, affirming message to the child even when they spill and break things, the kitchen can be a big “toy” for a child, too!

In the story Little Men by Louisa May Alcott, a method of raising children is described in which the parent or teacher carefully and gently “unfolds” the child’s mind and soul. I think this is a wonderful analogy. Rushing a child into things that they are not “ready” for is not a wise idea and will have negative consequences. We must not make the error of treating little children like adults. Precept upon precept–that’s what the Bible tells us. It’s a great child-rearing philosophy, and it works!

BTW, it sounds to me like the little girl was upset/obsessed with the stabbings, not the sex. I don’t blame her–I hate graphic violence, and I tend to avoid shows/plays/books with a great deal of blood and gore. The gruesome pictures stay in your mind forever–this isn’t good. I don’t think a child needs to see a graphic picture in their mind of the tortures that St. Maria Goretti endured to understand the concepts of faithfulness, modesty, and courage.

 

[pensmama87]

Amen.

We need to respect our child’s innocence and be alert for “readiness” when it comes to teaching them.

This applies to all things that we teach children. E.g., most 6-year olds are not “ready” to learn how to stand at the BBQ and flip hamburgers. They’re not big enough physically.

But most 6-year olds can arrange the fruit in the dish, or stir the batter for the cupcakes, etc. I said “most”–there are some 6-year olds who don’t have the hand-eye coordination and will spill it all over themselves. That’s OK, too, but why not just let them play with toys that will help them develop that hand-eye coordination, and when they are “ready,” then let them have fun learning the skills of the kitchen? Of course, if you have a lot of patience and don’t mind cleaning up messes and most importantly, you can convey a positive, affirming message to the child even when they spill and break things, the kitchen can be a big “toy” for a child, too!

In the story Little Men by Louisa May Alcott, a method of raising children is described in which the parent or teacher carefully and gently “unfolds” the child’s mind and soul. I think this is a wonderful analogy. Rushing a child into things that they are not “ready” for is not a wise idea and will have negative consequences. We must not make the error of treating little children like adults. Precept upon precept–that’s what the Bible tells us. It’s a great child-rearing philosophy, and it works!

BTW, it sounds to me like the little girl was upset/obsessed with the stabbings, not the sex. I don’t blame her–I hate graphic violence, and I tend to avoid shows/plays/books with a great deal of blood and gore. The gruesome pictures stay in your mind forever–this isn’t good. I don’t think a child needs to see a graphic picture in their mind of the tortures that St. Maria Goretti endured to understand the concepts of faithfulness, modesty, and courage.

That’s the impression I got too, although I’m not sure she saw a picture. I was a very sensitive child and I also had a vivid imagination. Chances are good this story would have disturbed me as much at 13 at 6, but at 13 I simply had learned to keep my mouth shut about how bothered I was. I’m not saying that’s a justification for going ahead and telling the story at 6, but I do want to say that sensitivity to these kinds of things may not necessarily decrease with age. Actually, it may be an indicator of future capability of empathy. What bothered me most when hearing about blood and gore wasn’t just what it looked like, but the recognition that it meant a lot of pain for the person experiencing it (and truthfully, that still gets to me.) It may be a problem insomuch as it’s hard sometimes to get the emotional distance needed in some situations, but that sensitivity can also be an asset when a child gets older.

 

[Hopey]

I agree if they used the words, rape or attempted rape, it was too much for a 6 yo. I would say something also.
It is hard to judge appropriateness now a days for all kids as some are more worldly than others. Some 10 yo wouldn’t blink at this story but others feel very upset. I wouldn’t say traumatized unless it went way too far, but border it. They hear worse stuff in passing on the nightly news - “So and so arrested for sex with child - possession of this or that - killed students at school” etc.
I would say something so the Srs know how to share the story in an appropriate way for all.

 

[schaeffer]

I am sorry that your child is going through this.

I believe that the good sisters may have made a mistake. You should write them and kindly inform them what happened, and ask that they prayerfully consider a different approach.

I would do so with kindness, but I would still mention it. Write them a note telling them about it your daughter’s trauma, but then perhaps also enclose a check for a donation as a thank you for their hard work. I think they will appreciate someone being kind but yet honest with them.

Consider having your daughter help you mail the letter to the sisters. Tell her “thank you” for telling you and that now hopefully no other children will hear the scary story because she came forward and told you. Tell her that the sisters are wonderful and good but made a little mistake and we will pray together. Hope this helps a little, God bless you.

^^
THIS

Let them know how your daughter reacted. I really don’t know if it’s appropriate or not. We had books about all that stuff in the home growing up and I remember being horrified and wishing there were things I didn’t know, but that too is part of life.

But I would let them know and you prayerfully consider if you should send her to that program next year. Every child and family is different and only you can know what is best.

I love the idea of having her help with the letter, it teaches her that it is appropriate to speak up when something upsetting happens, and how to handle delicate situations with grace.