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Valke2
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Jonah comes to mind. He ran the other way when God asked him to bring His message. Also, if you believe Jesus died for us, then didn’t we all allow innocent blood to be spilled in place of our own?
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exoflare
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But wasn’t Johah fictional?
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exoflare
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They probably believe in some sort of strawman version of John the Baptist rather than the historical one, just like they do with Jesus. Muslims are no strangers to denying history when it doesn’t fit their false beliefs.
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Valke2
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No more so than any other prophet.
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Grey_Pilgrim
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Valke I agree with you that Jonah was indeed a real prophet, though perhaps his story of being swallowed by a fish was meant to be more allegorical than it was literal. However, if memory serves me correctly, Jonah DID end up sending out God’s message, and ultimately saving many people from uncertain death, not ensuring it by letting someone else take the death sentence meant for him. There would be no parallel between someone initially trying to avoid doing God’s will and then later doing it perfectly, with that of a supposedly “great prophet” who allowed a look alike to die in place of him. After all, Jonah went on to become one of the most successful prophets of the old covenant and Jesus himself points to his story as a foreshadowing of his own “three days in the belly of the beast.” And Jonah was not the first to try to shirk his prophetic duty for God. Moses suggesting to God that he had picked the wrong guy and that he would make a terrible leader for God’s people because he stuttered a lot comes to mind. Jonah was yet another example of God working through someone’s weaknesses and turning them into strength to do His will. As St. Paul says, “in my weakness, then am I made strong”. So in answer to your suggestion that Jonah would be similar to this fictional, self-centered and cowardly Jesus that Islam describes, that is just not so. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut all the same, God love you.
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Grey_Pilgrim
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That is absolutely correct; we DID allow innocent blood to be spilled in place of our own. Of course, no one in Islam, Christianity or any other faith would even SUGGEST that I was a great prophet lol
And that is one of the beautiful paradoxes of the Christian faith. To those of us who believe and are being saved, the cross is the saving power of God bringing us into a new covenant with Him through the life, death and resurrection of His son, while to others it is a stumbling block that makes no sense. How could God allow His only begotten son to be crucified for OUR sins? Because it was the only way to bring us back to a point where a real relationship with Him could come to fruition.
On top of that it was OUR sins that made him hang from that “tree” for an agonizing amount of time as he slowly died from asphyxiation as crucifixion makes your lungs collapse from the weight of hanging. It makes me weep with sorrow whenever I think about it, but also with joy when I consider how great God’s love is for me that he would rather die for me then spend an eternity without me. He became the Passover lamb offered for the sins of many because all of the sacrifices being made to God were no longer satisfactory to cover the people’s myriad sins back then, let alone for all time. At the time of Jesus something like millions upon millions of bulls, lambs, and other animals were being sacrificed yearly and yet it did nothing to make amends for our sins, nor did God wish to continue to have these animals killed in His name, as He did not desire burnt offerings from us but wanted us to become holy and to look to Him as our father. And the fact was and is that without Christ we simply cannot and will not attain to such a level of righteousness, but through Him, with Him and in Him, it becomes at least possible. And just as the lamb’s blood over the doors to the Israelite’s homes in Egypt protected them from the angel of death during the first Passover, so too does Christ’s own blood shed for us and covering our hearts through baptism into his life, death, and resurrection; provide us with a share in his own ultimate victory over sin and death.
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Alexius
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There is certainly contempt for the way Christians view Jesus. To Muslims, he is the Messiah promised to the Israelites, but he was not God-in-flesh. This is considered blasphemy and shirk in Islam. Allah is totally sovereign and merciful and forgives the sins of the world without Jesus (Issa) needing to die on a cross. He can forgive whomever he wants without any human sacrifice or atonement needed. Unless you understand the Islamic position on Christ, you will not be able to comprehend the specifics on other aspects of Islam.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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exoflare
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I was referring to the book of Jonah, not the person.
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Valke2
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Yes, after trying to run away and avoid the express desire of GOd, and then being swallowed by a great fish, he decided to do God’s bidding. ANd then when he did it, and GOd decided to spare teh people, Jonah got upset. He was mad because he looked bad when he told people that God would punish them and then God didn’t punish them.
And your original statement was that none of the origional prophets shirked their responsibility…
Moses also attempts to get out of being a prophet, and argues with God for quite some time before accepting his mission. Moreover, Moses runs away after killing one of pharaoh’s men, in fear of his life and in fact is in the desert for something like 20 years or more before he returns to aid his people.
Jacob allows his sons to murder an entire town after convincing the male adults there to undergo circumcision, all because someone had their way with DInah.
Jacob after “stealing” his father’s blessing, runs away from his brother.
Abraham is willing to kill Isaac to make God happy.
Adam and Eve attempt to shirk responsibility after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Noah doesn’t even try to warn anyone of the coming flood.
Aaron, when faced with an nervous people, helps them make the GOlden calf and then basically lies o Moses about what happened.
I’m just spitballing here.
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Valke2
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The book of Jonah is given the same credibilty as the book of Isaiah or any of the other books of the prophets, as far as I know.
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inJESUS
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The Gnostic Basilides : someone else crucified.
God’s Spirit = Angel Gabriel.
Islam and Gnostics are brothers.
God’s Spirit = Angel Gabriel.
Islam and Gnostics are brothers.
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Grey_Pilgrim
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Hey Valke 2
Wow, thank you for the very spirited reply to my last post! I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm with which you attempted to address my original question. Unfortunately, instead of directly answering my question, which concerns the whole notion of Islam considering Jesus to be a great prophet while at the same time his letting someone else become the fall guy in His place, you have simply put forth your own questions/comments about other earlier prophets.
With all due respect this is seems to be an attempt to take the focus off of what I specifically asked and I would suggest maybe starting your own forum in regards to these other prophets. It would be worth noting however that none of these men did something that parallels what according to Islam Jesus did, which was to allow someone who was mistaken for him to receive the punishment meant for him (and that was my point). And this, more than the shirking of any said responsibility, formed the basis of what I was seeking insight concerning.
I am admittedly a NOVICE Theologian (great emphasis on Novice!
), so I sadly do not have the answers to your valid question/comments about these earlier prophets, perhaps you should put forth equal measure of energy into seeking out what the church officially has to say about these men of God? Thanks again for your contributions to my post Valke 2, God bless you.
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exoflare
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That the book of Jonah is divinely inspired I will attest. What I’m questioning is whether or not it must have been literal history rather than a fictional story with a message.
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Valke2
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I think you can ask that question about any of the scriptures.
As far as the Catholic position on the book of Jonah, the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
Catholics have always looked upon the Book of Jonah as a fact-narrative. In the works of some recent Catholic writers there is a leaning to regard the book as fiction. Only Simon and Jahn, among prominent Catholic scholars, have clearly denied the historicity of Jonah; and the orthodoxy of these two critics may no longer be defended: “Providentissimus Deus” implicitly condemned the ideas of both in the matter of inspiration, and the Congregation of the Index expressly condemned the “Introduction” of the latter.
According to the Septuagint text of the Book of Tobias (xiv, 4), the words of Jonah in regard to the destruction of Ninive are accepted as facts; the same reading is found in the Aramaic text and one Hebrew manuscript. The apocryphal III Mach., vi, 8, lists the saving of Jonah in the belly of the fish along with the other wonders of Old Testament history. Josephus (Ant. Jud., IX, 2) clearly deems the story of Jonah to be historical.
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Angelos
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Peace to you Grey Pilgrim
Sorry, I am late to write an answer to your last question about the identity of the person crucified in Jesus’ stead in Islamic theology due to trying the impossible: writing too many articles on Islam. Below is my answer
Muslims have arrived no consensus so far. Many Muslim scholars find it almost impossible to concur on the person substituted for the Messiah. Thus, many theologians & writers feel free to put forward their assumptions about the identity of the person mistakenly crucified in Jesus’ stead. The result of this liberal thinking with no evidence or support from the Quran is absolutely against the very statement in the Quran concerning Jesus’ death. The verse says “Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture” (4: 157) According to this verse, those with differing views about Jesus’ passion actually know nothing about it, and their claims are far from certainty.
Nevertheless, the verse in question ironically blames Muslims for following a conjecture & knowing nothing about the incident since it is Muslims that disagree about Jesus’ passion & crucifixion more than Jews & Christians! The differing views about the real victim of crucifixion in the Quran illustrate Muslims’ lack of accurate information about this historic event taking place 6 hundred years before the compilation of the Quran. Now let’s have a look at these different views & theories:
Few Islamic theologians claim that Jesus’ adversaries failed to recognize true Jesus since it was dark & the circumstances were chaotic. More, this crucifixion coincided with a major Judaic festivity. As a result, Roman soldiers hurried to arrest and punish Jesus, but mistakenly caught **someone else **that looked like him. Since it was dark & there were too many people racing around, the true Jesus found a way to hide Himself & escape the soldiers. According to this weird theory, the identity of the person dying in Jesus’ stead remains a secret in perfect compatibility with some Gnostic mysteries. In short, the identity of the victim is unknown.
Another group of Islamic scholars pursue the lost *Gospel of Basilides *in the identification of the victim as Simon of Cyrene. Their insistence on this person is not weird if one takes into account the fact that Muslims delight in basing most of their allegations on an originally - no matter considered heretic - Christian source rather than resort to innovations for the sake of authentic thinking.
To be continued… (Time to have dinner
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Angelos
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continuing from above
Majority of Muslim scholars & Islamic fractions firmly believe that it was **Judas Iscariot **that died in Jesus’ stead as a punishment in return for his disbelief & betrayal! Needless to say, the father of this vindictive theory is the apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas, regarded by Muslims as the only authentic Christian scripture dating back to Jesus’ life & based on His authority. As the writer of this spurious Gospel derived the material required for the elevation of Islam from the Canonical Gospels, he/she presented Judas Iscariot from a purely Christian perspective - as the lost son & betrayer. Nonetheless, such a portrayal of Jesus’ apostles or disciples has no basis in the Quran! Furthermore, the recent discovery of the fragments of the apocryphal *Gospel of Judas *Iscariot weakens the arguments present in the *Gospel of Barnabas *because in that Gospel Judas is praised for saving Spiritual Jesus from the Earthly one. This older Gospel labels Judas Iscariot as a chosen hero in sharp contrast to the punished & murdered sinner in the Gospel of Barnabas.
On the other hand, there are certainly some Muslims that keep faithful to a Hadith relating the story of Jesus’ passion from a radically Islamic view. These Muslims assert that Jesus asked one of His followers to die in His stead after promising that heroic disciple a place in Heaven.Even at a first glance, it is easy to notice in this Hadith the common Islamic zeal to accommodate Jesus’ story to Mohammed’s relation with his followers in terms of heroism & subsequent martyrdom. Thus, this theory totally dissociates Jesus’ passion from its originally Christian sources & understanding, aiming to extend the boundaries of Jesus’ manipulation by Mohammed. The true victim remains Christian in this theory, but the agent of the suffering & humiliating death is switched from the followed to the follower! (I shall analyze all these assertions in depth very soon).
Finally, some Muslim commentators manage to concur on the characteristics of the victim only, failing to give us the definite name or description of the person dieing in Jesus’ stead. They contend that the person who substituted for the Messiah was a disbeliever & an enemy to Jesus. Accordingly, some say that the man on the cross was **a Roman soldier **of a high rank or a **Jewish religious leader **that plotted to get rid of Jesus.
Majority of Muslim scholars & Islamic fractions firmly believe that it was **Judas Iscariot **that died in Jesus’ stead as a punishment in return for his disbelief & betrayal! Needless to say, the father of this vindictive theory is the apocryphal Gospel of Barnabas, regarded by Muslims as the only authentic Christian scripture dating back to Jesus’ life & based on His authority. As the writer of this spurious Gospel derived the material required for the elevation of Islam from the Canonical Gospels, he/she presented Judas Iscariot from a purely Christian perspective - as the lost son & betrayer. Nonetheless, such a portrayal of Jesus’ apostles or disciples has no basis in the Quran! Furthermore, the recent discovery of the fragments of the apocryphal *Gospel of Judas *Iscariot weakens the arguments present in the *Gospel of Barnabas *because in that Gospel Judas is praised for saving Spiritual Jesus from the Earthly one. This older Gospel labels Judas Iscariot as a chosen hero in sharp contrast to the punished & murdered sinner in the Gospel of Barnabas.
On the other hand, there are certainly some Muslims that keep faithful to a Hadith relating the story of Jesus’ passion from a radically Islamic view. These Muslims assert that Jesus asked one of His followers to die in His stead after promising that heroic disciple a place in Heaven.Even at a first glance, it is easy to notice in this Hadith the common Islamic zeal to accommodate Jesus’ story to Mohammed’s relation with his followers in terms of heroism & subsequent martyrdom. Thus, this theory totally dissociates Jesus’ passion from its originally Christian sources & understanding, aiming to extend the boundaries of Jesus’ manipulation by Mohammed. The true victim remains Christian in this theory, but the agent of the suffering & humiliating death is switched from the followed to the follower! (I shall analyze all these assertions in depth very soon).
Finally, some Muslim commentators manage to concur on the characteristics of the victim only, failing to give us the definite name or description of the person dieing in Jesus’ stead. They contend that the person who substituted for the Messiah was a disbeliever & an enemy to Jesus. Accordingly, some say that the man on the cross was **a Roman soldier **of a high rank or a **Jewish religious leader **that plotted to get rid of Jesus.
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Angelos
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Sorry, but I somehow consider the comparison between Jonah & Jesus fallacious as well as impertinent. Jonah escaped because he knew that God was angry with him after he had refused to accomplish his prophetic ministry in Nineveh and set out for another place. What Jonah escaped was not his destiny planned by God, but God’s righteous wrath! Besides, Jonah eventually confessed his sin on board and consented to be thrown into the sea by the other passengers so as to save them from God’s rage. Jonah’s fear never made him look for another victim to take his place!Hey Valke 2
Wow, thank you for the very spirited reply to my last post! I certainly appreciate the enthusiasm with which you attempted to address my original question. Unfortunately, instead of directly answering my question, which concerns the whole notion of Islam considering Jesus to be a great prophet while at the same time his letting someone else become the fall guy in His place, you have simply put forth your own questions/comments about other earlier prophets.
With all due respect this is seems to be an attempt to take the focus off of what I specifically asked and I would suggest maybe starting your own forum in regards to these other prophets. It would be worth noting however that none of these men did something that parallels what according to Islam Jesus did, which was to allow someone who was mistaken for him to receive the punishment meant for him (and that was my point). And this, more than the shirking of any said responsibility, formed the basis of what I was seeking insight concerning.
I am admittedly a NOVICE Theologian (great emphasis on Novice!
The spurious Jesus in that Hadith, on the other hand, asked one of his disciples to die in his stead because he himself desperately wanted to escape such a horrible death. However, it was not **God’s wrath **that led the spurious Jesus to such an immoral act, but the authority & power of his adversaries. More to the point, Romans or Jews would not have let someone else die for Jesus even if Jesus had attempted such a way out of the snare and a disciple had voluntarily accepted martyrdom. In any case, Jesus & that disciple would have needed a miracle for the swapping of the face & voice to convince the ones chasing Jesus. Therefore, you should change your question to “Is Allah an unfair god with limited power that performs a miracle to allow Jesus’ adversaries to murder an innocent believer for the sake of his coward prophet?”
In Christian theology, Jesus is the Savior that volunteers to die for sinful mankind to save them from eternal death whereas the false Jesus in the Hadith is a pathetic and desperate prophet that needs an innocent man to die so that he himself can be saved from crucifixion. What a perverted philosophy!
Peace to you,
ANgelos N.
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Valke2
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This ignores the popular muslim belief that the man actually crucified was Judas. Not an innocent.Sorry, but I somehow consider the comparison between Jonah & Jesus fallacious as well as impertinent. Jonah escaped because he knew that God was angry with him after he had refused to accomplish his prophetic ministry in Nineveh and set out for another place. What Jonah escaped was not his destiny planned by God, but God’s righteous wrath! Besides, Jonah eventually confessed his sin on board and consented to be thrown into the sea by the other passengers so as to save them from God’s rage. Jonah’s fear never made him look for another victim to take his place!
The spurious Jesus in that Hadith, on the other hand, asked one of his disciples to die in his stead because he himself desperately wanted to escape such a horrible death. However, it was not **God’s wrath **that led the spurious Jesus to such an immoral act, but the authority & power of his adversaries. More to the point, Romans or Jews would not have let someone else die for Jesus even if Jesus had attempted such a way out of the snare and a disciple had voluntarily accepted martyrdom. In any case, Jesus & that disciple would have needed a miracle for the swapping of the face & voice to convince the ones chasing Jesus. Therefore, you should change your question to “Is Allah an unfair god with limited power that performs a miracle to allow Jesus’ adversaries to murder an innocent believer for the sake of his coward prophet?”
In Christian theology, Jesus is the Savior that volunteers to die for sinful mankind to save them from eternal death whereas the false Jesus in the Hadith is a pathetic and desperate prophet that needs an innocent man to die so that he himself can be saved from crucifixion. What a perverted philosophy!
Peace to you,
ANgelos N.
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artist3189
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You sure are,
this is way off the mark, not even on the same magnitude of what Grey Pilgrim is alluding too. The fact that Islam shifted theology on Christ’s divinity and the meaning of the sacrificial offering is not new, and is directly linked to Gnostic ideas floating around the Middle East at that time. It is a spurious way to establish the primacy of Allah and is nothing but apocryphal nonsense.
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Angelos
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I know, but not all Muslims support that “Judas Iscariot” theory. Judas is one of the many possibilities
Shalom to you
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