Was that even in the original post or did it get edited to add it?phoage:
I did just catch this in the original post, which I did not notice before, so now I see the situation as more than just wanting the choir all to be uniform.
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JulianN
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It was in the original post. To me, it indicates he’s not singling her out—he’s looking for uniformity with all liturgical or visible ministry roles.
Yes, a Mantilla is a kind of a veil. But not all veils ought to be called mantillas. A “mantilla” calls to mind a triangular veil that is mostly lace. The mantilla has long been popular with Hispanic and Italian women, but really only became common in other cultures in the 1960s.
At least in the English language it has been not been the custom in the last few hundred years to refer to practice of a woman wearing a veil as “veiling” unless she is entering a religious order or is covering her face (such as a bride might do) as well as her head.
Veils have been worn by women in other cultures, particularly in eastern European cultures, but they were more scarf like. In the United States (other than in heavily Italian or Hispanic areas), Canada, and many northern European areas, hats have been the head covering of choice, at least on Sundays.
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pensmama87
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DisorientingSneeze
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I was describing myself, but…I could be.Hey, are you sitting behind me?
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pensmama87
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Truthfully it has probably described almost every woman I personally know who covers her hair at least once!
I find the argument that because a veil or hat is pretty it means the woman wearing it can’t be modest or humble to be…odd. Maybe next time I’ll wear PJs and a paper bag on my head for penance?
(Or maybe it just fits into the idea of “Sunday best”? I don’t dress ostentatiously, but yes, I do try to wear attractive clothes and have my head covering fit. I don’t stick out. Well, at least not because of the headcovering. Maybe because of the children.
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ConstantLearner
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I think hats look fine. They do not call undue attention to the wearer even if she’s the only one wearing a hat.
Still, the pastor has the final say about the ministries in his church. If he wants an uncovered head, and the wife of the OP won’t comply, I guess she would have to give up the choir director’s job. She should talk to him privately, and then accept whatever decision they reach.
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ConstantLearner
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A mantilla is a traditional Spanish lace or silk veil or shawl worn over the head and shoulders, often over a high comb called a peineta, popular with women in Spain. The shape, design and use are different from an ordinary veil.
en.wikipedia.org
“Veiling” is bad enough. I hope no one adds “mantillaing” to our vernacular!
Mantilla - Wikipedia
“Veiling” is bad enough. I hope no one adds “mantillaing” to our vernacular!
I’ve actually been thinking about this quite a bit.
My recollection of the veils women wore when I was young is that they had kind of an invisibility cloak nature. I’m not sure I ever saw white ones. The ones I saw growing up tended to blend into the woman’s hair in the front.
There weren’t all that many Hispanic or Italian women in my parish so…
They just didn’t look the same as the ones I see today at Mass or in pictures.
My recollection of the veils women wore when I was young is that they had kind of an invisibility cloak nature. I’m not sure I ever saw white ones. The ones I saw growing up tended to blend into the woman’s hair in the front.
There weren’t all that many Hispanic or Italian women in my parish so…
They just didn’t look the same as the ones I see today at Mass or in pictures.
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DisorientingSneeze
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That is definitely different from what I wear and what I’ve seen people calling a mantilla. Are the women you have such repeatedly negative reactions to wearing giant lacey capes with a high comb as pictured in the article you link?
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ConstantLearner
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No, just smaller triangular ones, and no comb.
I really don’t care who wears what. I just have a negative reaction, but I’d never insult the woman. Maybe she hates what I’m wearing! LOL And that’s okay.
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DisorientingSneeze
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I just don’t see how I’d be less conspicuous in a hat tomorrow than in some brown lace on my brown hair. I guess we are all having this conversation but we come from all over. So reactions to hats is as differing as reactions to veils.
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ConstantLearner
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I guess for me it’s because hats are common in the US culture, and I even come from Brazil, so I’m a Latina (but not a Hispanic).
I see hats all over the US so never think twice if a woman wears one to church.
I can’t speak for anyone else, of course.
The word mantilla really just means “mantle” or cover but it has come to refer to a specific traditional item of clothing. I believe the corresponding word in French word is mantille. French mantilles made from lace seem to be less triangular and more rounded than the Latin mantillas. I think mantille is sometimes translated to English as “shawl” but I never took French in school so…
I think I could accept the word ‘mantling’ more than I could the word ‘veiling’.
I think I could accept the word ‘mantling’ more than I could the word ‘veiling’.
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alice24
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I mean, I knew you Europeans were liberated but that seems excessive…
Nah, just conservative. Pants are immodest, didn´t you knew? We don´t wear them for this reason. To add, the parish is mostly russian, so bagna culture is all we love
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pensmama87
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Most of the chapel veils or mantillas I see are like this. The color blends into the woman’s hair. I’ve never seen a high comb. When the veil is white or another brighter color, it coordinates with the rest of the outfit. Once out of church, almost every woman slips it down to a scarf or takes it off and puts it in her bag.
Both the OF and EF Masses we attend have a lot of women who cover their heads, with veils, hats, scarves, caps, etc. And a lot of women don’t (even at the EF.) And nobody cares!
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ConstantLearner
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I could, too since only religious “take the veil.”
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