Veiling Our Heads

[Indigna_Ancilla]

+JMJ

What an ancient dilemna that goes as far back as St. Paul’s time (btw: wayyyy before Jackie-O, my friend in Christ), as we see in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 11. The veil worn by woman was considered a sign of respect and subordination and therefore worn by respectable women of the time while in prayer in holy places of worship. Paul even spoke of the arguments among the radical women with short hair on women or even simply women with hair uncovered while in holy places of prayer and worship, as they were considered to be bucking the culture of respect and humility in these places. (Back then, short cropped hair was a sign of a woman who was a prostitute.)

Times certainly have changed. Fashions change, but out of respect for He who never changes, shouldn’t we at least consider for ourselves how we may become more and more conformed to our Blessed Mother, so that we may be formed to God’s holy will? If a veil is worn out of vanity, then God will see that. If it is worn out of a way to hide one’s attractiveness (which today is still very much an adornment on a woman) so that the woman may not be even a moment’s distraction at holy places (especially where the Body of Christ is present and during the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass) then it is good. If a head-covering is worn out of humility and modesty, by the desire to make herself hidden, then it is good and pleasing to God. If it is worn out of a desire to stand out, this is not too good.

The change of women not wearing head-coverings happened fairly recenty, however, the Church never said it was ok for women to stop wearing head-coverings at Church. What happened there was back around 1969, a reporter misquoted a cardinal after the Vatican II discussion, when the cardinal reported that the issue was not discussed. That was taken by the reporter to mean that the issue was not import, and therefore inconsequential. (woops!)

We are Catholics. We are counter-cultural (in terms of the culture of the world). We are to discern what God wants in terms of scripture and the teachings of the Church, NOT what is happening in the world as far as trends, fashions, and popularity polls even within the Church members. (Remember, there are many nominal Catholics who can’t even tell you the 10 Commandments, or the 7 Sacraments of the Church. God bless them, but they aren’t a good method of discerning – by popularity – what is most pleasing to God). All I’m saying is humble yourself, and examine your consciences, not whether or not something is convenient or inconvenient, exhalting or embarassing, or how it feels otherwise. Invoke the Holy Spirit, ask for the Blessed Mother’s intercession frequently (daily rosary, as per her own request at Fatima), and discern God’s will.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Oh who opened this can of worms again!!!???!!!

 

[karbear]

I don’t know whether to call them a mantilla or a chapel veil but I am so struck by the powerful sense of dignity about a woman who wears one, that I am curious. The most information I can get it that early last century, the church said that they were no longer mandated and that covering the head was a sign of submission and respect. I can only postulate that in the larger analogy it was some kind of sign that a woman who wore one understood that she was submissive to her husband or father, the way that her husband or Father was submissive to the church. And conversely that she was precious and protected, that her sense of modesty was indicative of her understanding and appreciation of the fact that she was loved and sacrificed for by the men in her life, the way that Christ sacrificed for his bride. But these are my own words and thoughts and I would love to read something authoritative on the subject. Can anyone direct me?

 

[Honoria20]

OutinChgoburbs:

Oh who opened this can of worms again!!!???!!!

I’m new here and I second that! Who wants to wear a veil just to make a statement of submission or holiness. The Pharisees did that quite well. Personally, I’d rather go unnoticed and pay attention to the Mass and my prayer life.

 

[GoLatin]

Nowadays women have hairstyles that are elaborate and meant to be seen, so when a woman covers her hair to pray, that is a sign of humility.

Some women wear veils that are really tiny and/or see-through. They need to realise that when a woman covers her head, it is to COVER her hair, not to adorn it.

Therefore, they need bigger head coverings!

 

[karbear]

Honoria20:

Personally, I’d rather go unnoticed and pay attention to the Mass and my prayer life.

Um, who’s calling who ‘holier than thou’?

 

[Honoria20]

karbear:

Um, who’s calling who ‘holier than thou’?

Why? I thought that was a very humble thing to say. To go unoticed in my prayer and appearance.

 

[netmilsmom]

Honoria20:

I’m new here and I second that! Who wants to wear a veil just to make a statement of submission or holiness. The Pharisees did that quite well. Personally, I’d rather go unnoticed and pay attention to the Mass and my prayer life.

You likened women who cover their heads to Pharisees and then state how pious you think you are. Judge not lest you be judged.
You have no clue why I cover my head yet are quick to judge me.
Nice.

 

[Eileen_T]

Honoria20:

I’m new here and I second that! Who wants to wear a veil just to make a statement of submission or holiness. The Pharisees did that quite well.

I have just recently begun to cover my head at Mass. I am not the only one who does so where I attend so I don’t stick out and, in my case, it is not “just to make a statement of submission or holiness”.

Why should those who choose to wear a head covering be subjected to ridicule and scathing comments by those who don’t? If I chose to wear a hat or scarf in public it wouldn’t even raise an eyebrow, so what’s the problem in wearing it to Church?

I haven’t analyzed why I have started the practice, it just seemed ‘right’ to me some how, so that’s why I do it.

 

[Eileen_T]

Honoria20:

Personally, I’d rather go unnoticed and pay attention to the Mass and my prayer life.

BTW, that’s exactly why I go to the Latin Mass. I find everyone’s attention is focussed on the Altar and not each other and what they are or are not wearing.

 

[bear06]

ARgh!!! Nobody should be judged because they feel called to wear a headcoving and nobody should be judged because they don’t feel called to wear a headcovering. I have seen people chastised for both and I’m quite sick of it.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

General Notice
This is a one time thread warning. Several recent discussions on this subject have led to thread closures. Please edit for tone and content prior to posting, keeping in mind that the purpose of forums is to talk “with” one another and not “at” one another.

 

[Honoria20]

Sorry if anyone was offended by my post, but where I come from, nobody wears a veil or mantilla anymore and to do so would be calling attention to oneself.
The thought I was trying to convey was that if wearing veils was the norm or a usual situation, I would have no objection – when it is not, it does serve to “call attention” to the wearer. I also feel that lengthy sermonettes to those who do not prefer to use veils often leaves the impression that somehow “the veiled” are reverting to a “holier, or better” course of action. That simply is not the case. IMHO, a personal preference is simply that, a preference. A gesture of “humility” should not be used to promote one’s own holiness nor intimate the lack of it in others.

 

[Eileen_T]

Honoria20:

Sorry if anyone was offended by my post, but where I come from, nobody wears a veil or mantilla anymore and to do so would be calling attention to oneself.
The thought I was trying to convey was that if wearing veils was the norm or a usual situation, I would have no objection – when it is not, it does serve to “call attention” to the wearer. I also feel that lengthy sermonettes to those who do not prefer to use veils often leaves the impression that somehow “the veiled” are reverting to a “holier, or better” course of action. That simply is not the case. IMHO, a personal preference is simply that, a preference.

That was the point I was trying to make too.

A gesture of “humility” should not be used to promote one’s own holiness nor intimate the lack of it in others.

Or it wouldn’t be humility. Right?

 

[dumspirospero]

Why wouldn’t you want to submit to the will of God???

Honoria20:

I’m new here and I second that! Who wants to wear a veil just to make a statement of submission or holiness. The Pharisees did that quite well. Personally, I’d rather go unnoticed and pay attention to the Mass and my prayer life.

 

[dumspirospero]

Wearing Mantillas…is in fact correct and the norm…just because as humans, women have decided not to wear them anymore, doesn’t make not wearing them the norm…nor does it make it correct…actually, by not wearing them, they are in fact “calling attention” to themselves, because they are blatantly ignoring rougly 1965 years of tradition.

Honoria20:

Sorry if anyone was offended by my post, but where I come from, nobody wears a veil or mantilla anymore and to do so would be calling attention to oneself.
The thought I was trying to convey was that if wearing veils was the norm or a usual situation, I would have no objection – when it is not, it does serve to “call attention” to the wearer. I also feel that lengthy sermonettes to those who do not prefer to use veils often leaves the impression that somehow “the veiled” are reverting to a “holier, or better” course of action. That simply is not the case. IMHO, a personal preference is simply that, a preference. A gesture of “humility” should not be used to promote one’s own holiness nor intimate the lack of it in others.

 

[Indigna_Ancilla]

+JMJ

My Sisters in Christ, let’s remember our Lord’s charity and honor him by being charitable towards others!

OK. When I wrote about demonstrating a sign of humility and modesty, it wasn’t intended for the benefit of appearing humble and modest to people, but for the consideration of our most humble Lord, Jesus Christ. What is holy is not necessarily “the norm” of our culture. What I was referring to was the interior disposition of the individual who choses either to wear a head-covering or not wear a head-covering— what is her objective? No one can judge a person by their appearance, however, immodesty in general (for example, shorts, tight blouses, short skirts, skirts with high slits, low-cut blouses, etc.) is objectively wrong as it is disrespectful to our Lord. OK. This is another discussion altogether, but my point of bringing this up is that how we choose to dress is infact a message to our Lord.

Dressing modestly, in this case, covering one’s hair in the context of being modest is also an act of charity towards others. Fact is, men tend to like women with hair. The more attractive the hair the more they tend to look. When a young woman covers her hair to attend the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass it is an act of charity.

Bottom line, if a woman (any age), decides that she wants to wear a head-covering, then we should assume that it is for a holy reason. Not only that, but as fellow Catholics, we should not dismiss our tradition, whether or not we chose it for ourselves. (We all have to follow our conscience, and discern our decisions by God’s will.) Normally, when women go out, they tend to present themselves so that they are at their best according to the world’s standards (which is a dangerous place to begin discerning such a matter according to our Lady of Fatima). When does God’s standards ever become considered? Yes, He loves us regardless, but we distance ourselves from Him by chosing to do things that are primarily for our own gratification. He gave us His only Son, Jesus to die for us. What can we do for him? Is simply showing up at Mass in our best clothes (according to the world’s standards) the best we can do, or the best we are willing to do? This isn’t about judging our sisters in Christ, since we can not judge a person’s interior by their exterior (although we can judge that an action is objectively immoral or moral, such as wearing revealing clothing at the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass). ** These postings should be with the intent of exhorting one another (encouraging), not trying to embarass, disgrace, or rebuke one another**. When we judge and become offended by one another and demontrate lack of charity we do as much (if not greater) injury to our own selves as we do to the Body of Christ.


Upholding a visible sign of our Catholic tradition is something we should embrace to the degree that we are able. We should embrace our sisters-in-Christ whether or not they chose to wear the veil, and assume it is for respect. (We should also presume the best in people.)

As for the mantilla being lace — most lace still covers the hair enough to make the style and attraction of the hair less discernable. In as much as it does this, the veil does what it is supposed to do. Some women, however, chose to wear it simply out of respect of tradition, and that is not a bad thing.

There’s good, better, and best. And then there is even ‘I don’t really care one way or another’. Let’s remember, again, that the question we should be asking is not whether or not it suits us (that would be pride), or whether or not it suits the ‘norm’ by the standards of popularity (that is known as ‘fashion’), but rather discerning whether or not something is most pleasing to God. That, my friends in Christ, is seeking holiness.

Do I get an “Amen”?

 

[HagiaSophia]

dumspirospero:

Wearing Mantillas…is in fact correct and the norm…just because as humans, women have decided not to wear them anymore, doesn’t make not wearing them the norm…nor does it make it correct…actually, by not wearing them, they are in fact “calling attention” to themselves, because they are blatantly ignoring rougly 1965 years of tradition.

Do you were a tallis and long robes to Mass?

Times and fashions change – piety is located in the heart not over the head. Women where I live would look at someone in a veil or a mantilla as if from a bygone age and if you were a great grandmother no one would say much. If not, you would certainly receive some odd looks. Just as if I put on a hobble skirt,took a parasol, and arrived in a horse drawn carriage to Mass. Women of today are women of today - connected to the tradition of the Mass dressed in the fashions of their geographic time and place. Men of today no longer wear stovepipe hats, pigskin gloves and carry gold headed canes as they arrive either.

For those who wish to personally veil, let them do it. For the rest of us, (which apparently is the vast majority), in your charity be not harsh in your judgment, in your faith trust that Christ knows why we have come to the Sunday service, unveiled, unhatted and prayerful, drawing not attention to ourselves, but joined with each other in giving worship and praise.

 

[Indigna_Ancilla]

JHS

Those of you who had an almost violent interior reaction to some of the postings by people who opt for the veil (when visiting a place where the Holy Presence is exposed or not exposed), do any of you attend the Tridentine Mass? My guess is nay, since it IS infact popular and strongly recommended in the traditional catholic mass, as opposed to the Novos Ordo (to which, I would guess, most of you who are oppsed to to the veil have always attended).

Here’s a dare for all you sisters in Christ who either have a strong opposition to wearing the veil or not to wear the veil (or against those who do or do not wear it):

Next time those of you who are opposed to the veil attend the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass (you’d probably have to attend a Latin Traditional Mass), sit by a woman who has on a head-covering. If you have a difficult time imagining that maybe, just maybe, she might be a saint or at least on her way to becoming one (with her compliance to God’s help/grace to the Blessed Mother’s intercession), check yourself. You may need to spend more time in the Confessional and in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Those of you who are vehemently opposed to not wearing the veil and/or to those who chose not to wear it, at the next mass you attend (may have to be a Novos Ordo), sit next to someone who is not wearing a head-covering. if you have a difficult time imagining that maybe, just maybe, she might be a saint or at least on her way to becoming a saint (with her compliance with God’s help/grace through the Blessed Mother’s intercession), check yourself. You may need to spend more time in the Confessional and in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Well, then again, we all pretty much need more time with Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

Point: We SHARE in the Body of Christ. Let’s act like it and discuss our tradition as if we all believed it and were proud of each other also sharing in the faith.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The change of women not wearing head-coverings happened fairly recenty, however, the Church never said it was ok for women to stop wearing head-coverings at Church.

I disagree. The Church omitted the rule from canon law, and stated that the custom was no longer normative, which means obligatory. While it is still a pious custom, this custom is no longer binding upon the faithful per canon law.

The Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith has stated with regard to head coverings:

**INTER INSIGNIORES, 15 Oct 1976
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

…it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on the head (1 Cor 11:2-6); such requirements no longer have a normative value.

While it is not proscribed by the Church, it is no longer prescribed either, that is, it is no longer obligatory (ie. a norm of the Church).