Veiling the Crucifix During Lent

  • Thread starter Thread starter NihilObstatINRI
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I would say that the exclusive non-use of the above could be considered an abuse. The documents themselves allow use of the vernacular and use of non-chant hymns, however pride of place is specifically given to Latin and Gregorian chant. Ad Orientem appears to be assumed in the Missale Romanum, and the use of versus populum was not really anticipated.
We will probably never have ad orientium at our NO parish…frankly I am glad although our priest has taken the time to explain it. Latin…used more at the early service but hardly ever at the late service. I don’t think that would (or should) be considered an abuse. The NO is a valid Mass.
 
We will probably never have ad orientium at our NO parish…frankly I am glad although our priest has taken the time to explain it. Latin…used more at the early service but hardly ever at the late service. I don’t think that would (or should) be considered an abuse. The NO is a valid Mass.
Liturgical abuses do not invalidate a Mass.
 
We could debate that, but I’m not sure it’s permitted on this board.
Yes…I afraid that would be a slippery slope since most NO’s are not practiced that way. This is NOT the traditional forumn. Although even there I suspect eventually you could get in trouble with that logic.

But we can agree on the veiling of the crucifix during all of Lent…I sure wouldn’t like it…😦 Agreed? 👍
 
Yes…I afraid that would be a slippery slope since most NO’s are not practiced that way. This is NOT the traditional forumn. Although even there I suspect eventually you could get in trouble with that logic.

But we can agree on the veiling of the crucifix during all of Lent…I sure wouldn’t like it…😦 Agreed? 👍
Oh trust me, I’m 100% faithful to the Church. My logic takes me only to where the Church has gone before.
Are you familiar with Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani?
 
Oh trust me, I’m 100% faithful to the Church. My logic takes me only to where the Church has gone before.
Are you familiar with Alfredo Cardinal Ottaviani?
Nope…but I’ve only been back a year. But I’ve very careful not to be too rigid about my faith. My grandma was…things that didn’t make sense to me. But she neglected to teach me anything about it as a kid…and neglected in a lot of ways Catholic charity. I don’t want to get mirred down in something that may cause me to rethink my return. Especially since I also consider myself 100% faithful to the Church.

I am well aware of the disagreements in the traditional circle about the NO vs. the EF…but then again this is not the forumn for that. The Church allows both and as far as I know does not consider Mass in the venacular to be an abuse. I trust Holy Mother Church. What different priest or Cardinal’s personal opinon here and there is matters not to be.
 
Nope…but I’ve only been back a year. But I’ve very careful not to be too rigid about my faith. My grandma was…things that didn’t make sense to me. But she neglected to teach me anything about it as a kid…and neglected in a lot of ways Catholic charity. I don’t want to get mirred down in something that may cause me to rethink my return. Especially since I also consider myself 100% faithful to the Church.

I am well aware of the disagreements in the traditional circle about the NO vs. the EF…but then again this is not the forumn for that. The Church allows both and as far as I know does not consider Mass in the venacular to be an abuse. I trust Holy Mother Church. What different priest or Cardinal’s personal opinon here and there is matters not to be.
My point in bringing up Cardinal Ottaviani is that my point of view, which I remind you, you do not know right now, is considered perfectly legitimate and faithful within the Church.
 
My point in bringing up Cardinal Ottaviani is that my point of view, which I remind you, you do not know right now, is considered perfectly legitimate and faithful within the Church.
Your point of view that Mass that is always in the venacular is an abuse? Hmm…show me where Holy Mother Church says that. Not Cardinal so and so.
 
Your point of view that Mass that is always in the venacular is an abuse? Hmm…show me where Holy Mother Church says that. Not Cardinal so and so.
I didn’t say it’s an abuse in and of itself. However, I think that the de facto norm that all Masses are in the vernacular is an issue that should be addressed. Latin has pride of place. That is clearly spelled out.
 
I didn’t say it’s an abuse in and of itself. However, I think that the de facto norm that all Masses are in the vernacular is an issue that should be addressed. Latin has pride of place. That is clearly spelled out.
I’m not going to argue Latin as the official language of the Church. I just don’t really appreciate it all that much. Hey…right now trying to relearn my faith and volunteering is about all I can handle right now. And DH is converting and is totally lost when they throw Latin in.

At least at our parish…if you want more traditional elements…go to the early service. If you don’t (but still no abuses) then go to the later service. The biggest abuse I can find about the later service has to do with the people that attend. About 15 minutes beforehand the noise level gets so bad…I dislike it:( But DH has to go to that service for the early dismissal.

If it makes you feel any better…we were at another Church for Rachmaninoff Vespers concert…and apparently I’ve picked up enough Latin to be able to read “This is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”. DH was impressed…🙂
 
I’m not going to argue Latin as the official language of the Church. I just don’t really appreciate it all that much. Hey…right now trying to relearn my faith and volunteering is about all I can handle right now. And DH is converting and is totally lost when they throw Latin in.

At least at our parish…if you want more traditional elements…go to the early service. If you don’t (but still no abuses) then go to the later service. The biggest abuse I can find about the later service has to do with the people that attend. About 15 minutes beforehand the noise level gets so bad…I dislike it:( But DH has to go to that service for the early dismissal.

If it makes you feel any better…we were at another Church for Rachmaninoff Vespers concert…and apparently I’ve picked up enough Latin to be able to read “This is the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world”. DH was impressed…🙂
The faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Mass. Going to a different Mass should be a last resort, because it doesn’t address the problems that may be present.
 
Latin has pride of place. That is clearly spelled out.
Actually, that is not true. Sacrosanctum Concilium says that the Latin language “is to be preserved” within the Latin Rites, which is arguably satisfied by having the typical edition promulgated in Latin and having the option to celebrate in Latin. The document didn’t say that Latin “is to be used” or anything like that. And I have never quite understood the function of the first phrase in the sentence: “Particular law remaining in force salvo particulari iure], the use of the Latin language is to be preserved . . . .” Does it mean that if particular law does not remain in force, the rest of the clause is inapplicable? Or that particular law must remain in force? Or just that this clause can be superseded by particular law controlling the matter more specifically? I suspect the last, but I really don’t know.

You’re probably thinking of the line in SC about Gregorian Chant, which says that, “other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.” Arguably, “other things” are almost never “equal,” since that would seem to imply a situation where the congregation is as comfortable and conversant with Latin as with their vernacular. I can understand the logic of saying, “Sure, if people could hear, understand, and join the chants just as well as other types of music, then the precondition (equality of circumstances) would be satisfied for giving chant pride of place in the liturgy over other types of music.”

Don’t get me wrong, I read Latin, and I sing Gregorian chant every week in my parish and would love more. I just find the arguments that Sacrosanctum Concilium demanded that we all should be hearing tons of Latin and chant to be . . . if not wrong, then quite a bit flimsier than they are often presented as being.
 
Actually, that is not true. Sacrosanctum Concilium says that the Latin language “is to be preserved” within the Latin Rites, which is arguably satisfied by having the typical edition promulgated in Latin and having the option to celebrate in Latin. The document didn’t say that Latin “is to be used” or anything like that. And I have never quite understood the function of the first phrase in the sentence: “Particular law remaining in force salvo particulari iure], the use of the Latin language is to be preserved . . . .” Does it mean that if particular law does not remain in force, the rest of the clause is inapplicable? Or that particular law must remain in force? Or just that this clause can be superseded by particular law controlling the matter more specifically? I suspect the last, but I really don’t know.

You’re probably thinking of the line in SC about Gregorian Chant, which says that, “other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.” Arguably, “other things” are almost never “equal,” since that would seem to imply a situation where the congregation is as comfortable and conversant with Latin as with their vernacular. I can understand the logic of saying, “Sure, if people could hear, understand, and join the chants just as well as other types of music, then the precondition (equality of circumstances) would be satisfied for giving chant pride of place in the liturgy over other types of music.”

Don’t get me wrong, I read Latin, and I sing Gregorian chant every week in my parish and would love more. I just find the arguments that Sacrosanctum Concilium demanded that we all should be hearing tons of Latin and chant to be . . . if not wrong, then quite a bit flimsier than they are often presented as being.
You’re right, my use of pride of place was more properly referring to chant, however Latin is our liturgical language and therefore part of our unique Tradition. Therefore it is self evident that it is to be preserved. To abandon the Latin language would be to abandon our liturgical heritage.
There are a few other good reasons for giving Latin its due place as the language of our rite:
The concern for dogmatic unity
The concern for stability
The concern for Tradition
The concern for universality
Latin has many linguistic qualities
Variety of Languages is the result of Sin
The Example of Christ Himself

From the same article:
"The Council of Trent summed up well the Church’s mind on Latin being the Language of Roman rite in the following words “ If anyone says that the Mass should be celebrated in the vernacular only, let him be Anathema . “ - Council of Trent (Session XXII, Canon 9)

Again Pope Pius VI, condemned the notion that the mass should said “in the vernacular” as “rash, offensive to pious ears, insulting to the Church, and favorable to the charges of heretics against it” (Dz 1533)."

“The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism in respect of the Sacred Liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded. This notwithstanding, the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with laws and rubrics, deserve reproof. It has pained Us grievously to note, (…) that such innovations are actually being introduced, not merely in minor details but in matters of major importance as well. They are, in point of fact, those who make use of the vernacular in the celebration of the august Eucharistic Sacrifice; those who transfer certain feast days - which have been appointed and established after mature deliberation - to other dates; those finally who delete from the prayer books approved for public use the sacred texts of the Old Testament, deeming them little suited and inopportune for modern times.

The use of the Latin language, customary in a considerable portion of the Church, is a manifest and beautiful sign of unity, as well as an effective antidote for any corruption of doctrinal truth.” (Pius XII: Encyclical Mediator Dei, November 20, 1947)
 
The faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Mass. Going to a different Mass should be a last resort, because it doesn’t address the problems that may be present.
I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about it…Not having Latin most of the time and having Mass ad orientium is NOT an abuse. It is a properly celebrated (AND VALID) Mass.

Geez…I’ve tried to find common ground with you but it seems there is no pleasing you…adios…🤷
 
I’m not going to sit here and argue with you about it…Not having Latin most of the time and having Mass ad orientium is NOT an abuse. It is a properly celebrated (AND VALID) Mass.

Geez…I’ve tried to find common ground with you but it seems there is no pleasing you…adios…🤷
I’m sorry, but I don’t believe you’re listening to what I’m trying to say.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top