Veiling

[dixieagle]

Hello Dixie.

So, is it accurate to say you think I have a holier than thou attitude? If so, thanks for the fine judgment of my character. But I think name calling is not allowed here at CAF. I’m off-putting, holier than thou, not winning any friends and offensive. Fine. God bless you for your kind words.

Glenda

When someone says "A veil doesn’t hurt the faith of anyone. It challenges their lack of piety, modesty and reverence" I think it is fair to say that represents a holier than thou attitude, quite literally.

 

[dixieagle]

I really don’t understand this term “veiling.” It seems to be a new term, replacing “covering your head.”

But somehow indicates that only a veil will do.

I know when I was younger, we wore hats. I didn’t know anyone that wore a veil. Well, other than brides.

You and I both, Maryjk. I often wonder whence veils acquired the mystical quality that they seem to have. Little round “chapel veils” came into use simply because it was easy to stuff one in your pocket or purse. Longer mantillas were worn only by older women from Italian backgrounds in our large Massachusetts parish, and then usually only at weekday Masses, as everyone wore hats on Sundays.

I am all for anyone wearing something - or nothing - on her head, as she chooses. I think it was silly for the campus minister to object to a little chapel veil; if she believed it was confusing, then it should have been used as an opportunity to teach people that, though head coverings are in no way required, some women choose to were one as a personal devotion. Tempest in a teapot.

 

[HelenRose]

But you’re not standing up for your faith if you refuse to remove a veil. You’re standing up for a personal right to practice a private devotion that is no longer required by Holy Mother Church.

It’s a devotion that is obviously not well-understood even by Christians, at least at this university Interfaith Center. It makes no sense to take a stand for something that other don’t understand.

Instead of “taking a stand for veiling,” why not instead seek to help others to understand why you choose to practice this devotion, the history of the practice, and why it is still meaningful today.

Why butt heads and contribute to a conflict when you can instead, be a peacemaker and demonstrate Christ’s love through your own loving attitude and willingness to help others learn?

What is the “higher road” here? Wouldn’t it be better to travel on that road?

Standing up for your faith means defending life in the midst of those who advocate for abortion rights. Standing up for your faith means not attending the wedding of two friends who are gay. Standing up for your faith means not moving in with your boyfriend before marriage. Standing up for your faith means stating without apology whenever you have the opportunity that you believe that Jesus Christ is God, the Lord of the Universe, and the Only Way to heaven. And standing up for your faith means sacrificing your own desires and doing what will help others to make it to heaven, too.

For many people around the world, standing up for your faith means refusing to deny Christ and paying the price of losing your home, your job, your children, your very life.

Mea Culpa.

 

[LightBound]

When someone says "A veil doesn’t hurt the faith of anyone. It challenges their lack of piety, modesty and reverence" I think it is fair to say that represents a holier than thou attitude, quite literally.

:sad_yes:

 

[oneofmany]

Would she ask a Muslim woman to remove her head dress? Just wondering. I see plenty of Muslim women working in stores, etc. and not removing their head dress. You might ask her that question.

 

[lola5555]

I just don’t understand why so many threads get so ugly…is it just an internet thing? Maybe I’m too thin-skinned for CAF I wear a mantilla and I never thought anyone was thinking any of these things. Why would anyone care? I don’t give this much energy to the top of people’s heads, but I know it represents much more than that. My general rule in life is that no one should be trying to remove anything I’m wearing, by request or force.

 

[DebChris]

You and I both, Maryjk. I often wonder whence veils acquired the mystical quality that they seem to have. Little round “chapel veils” came into use simply because it was easy to stuff one in your pocket or purse. Longer mantillas were worn only by older women from Italian backgrounds in our large Massachusetts parish, and then usually only at weekday Masses, as everyone wore hats on Sundays.

I am all for anyone wearing something - or nothing - on her head, as she chooses. I think it was silly for the campus minister to object to a little chapel veil; if she believed it was confusing, then it should have been used as an opportunity to teach people that, though head coverings are in no way required, some women choose to were one as a personal devotion. Tempest in a teapot.

I just don’t understand why so many threads get so ugly…is it just an internet thing? Maybe I’m too thin-skinned for CAF I wear a mantilla and I never thought anyone was thinking any of these things. Why would anyone care? I don’t give this much energy to the top of people’s heads, but I know it represents much more than that. My general rule in life is that no one should be trying to remove anything I’m wearing, by request or force.

I am not so overly incensed when asked to remove my head covering as others might be. It is the reason that I did see my parish priest when I was asked to remove my hat. I was in a country where few Europeans or Americans even go to church, and I would not want that to be the reason somebody decided not to return to the only Catholic church in the country. I sometimes forget to bring a head covering, so again it was not that much of a personal issue. It was also easy enough for me to substitute a scarf, which had the added benefit of protecting me against the occasional tear gas that police sometimes used on demonstrators. Yes, I was in the Middle East during the Arab Spring.

God told Moses to remove his shoes before the burning bush because “it was holy ground.” I often remove my shoes when I pray. Everybody was expected to remove their shoes before entering the Adoration Chapel, again because “it is holy ground.” Like many other parishioners, I would remove my shoes during Mass.
It is the custom in many countries to remove shoes before entering another person’s home. Even in America, I have seen requests for shoe removal from having dirt brought into the homes, especially during the winter months.

Some things are not worth arguing about. St. Paul calls on men to remove their head covering when they come to worship. We do not know if he would have given the same instructions were he preaching to Arabs instead of Greeks. He calls on women to cover their heads while praying. The Church never specified what type of head covering was to be worn.
Mennonite and Quaker women chose to wear a head covering at all times in obedience to the biblical command to “pray always.” A Muslim women might refuse to remove her hajib on the grounds that it defines who she is. She would consider it harim, or sinful.While the Catholic Church calls on us to maintain modesty in dress and actions, it is not so strict in demanding that women keep their heads covered.
The OP has taken the higher ground and chosen an alternative head covering.

 

[felsguy]

Just wondering here…how is choosing to “veil” any different from choosing to hold hands during the Our Father?

 

[Cat]

Would she ask a Muslim woman to remove her head dress? Just wondering. I see plenty of Muslim women working in stores, etc. and not removing their head dress. You might ask her that question.

That doesn’t matter.

It is absolutely REQUIRED for a Muslim woman to be covered. It’s not just part of their religion, it’s part of their culture. Even a non-Muslim woman must be covered when in Muslim countries (or face arrest).

It is NOT required for a Catholic woman to be veiled. It’s a personal choice.

 

[Cat]

I just don’t understand why so many threads get so ugly…is it just an internet thing? Maybe I’m too thin-skinned for CAF I wear a mantilla and I never thought anyone was thinking any of these things. Why would anyone care? I don’t give this much energy to the top of people’s heads, but I know it represents much more than that. My general rule in life is that no one should be trying to remove anything I’m wearing, by request or force.

Are you a college student at a large secular university? Are you part of a secular college campus (faculty, staff, etc.?). Do you attend Mass in a secular college campus Interfaith Center?

If not, then probably no one is thinking anything about your veil. I certainly don’t pay much attention to the women who veil in our very contemporary Catholic parish. That’s their choice.

But college campuses are a whole different culture, with a lot of diversity and some very confused thinking from thousands of people who don’t know much about anything.

The point is, the Campus Minister experienced a “problem” when someone wore a veil and was in the front of the congregation. She asked the student, who held a position of authority herself (VP of Spirituality) to try to help prevent that problem from happening again.

This was not about telling the young woman to commit a sin. This was not about telling the young woman to deny her faith in Jesus.

It was about keeping the peace.

 

[Cat]

Just wondering here…how is choosing to “veil” any different from choosing to hold hands during the Our Father?

I am assuming that this is a serious question, so I will give it a serious answer.

Choosing to veil involves only yourself. No one else has to wear your veil with you.

Choosing to hold hands during the Our Father involves bringing others into your choice. When you reach out to another and touch their hands, they are now part of your choice, even if they made a different choice (not holding hands).

Neither of the two actions is required by Holy Mother Church, but neither is either of the two actions forbidden.

 

[pianistclare]

I am assuming that this is a serious question, so I will give it a serious answer.

Choosing to veil involves only yourself. No one else has to wear your veil with you.

Choosing to hold hands during the Our Father involves bringing others into your choice. When you reach out to another and touch their hands, they are now part of your choice, even if they made a different choice (not holding hands).

Neither of the two actions is required by Holy Mother Church, but neither is either of the two actions forbidden.

You might want to read this:
stpaulcatholic.net/church/faqs/faqs/are-we-supposed-hold-hands-during-lords-prayer/

NO, we are not to hold hands. People do, but we are not to. It’s pretty clear.
Veiling? Not required.

 

[DebChris]

That doesn’t matter.

It is absolutely REQUIRED for a Muslim woman to be covered. It’s not just part of their religion, it’s part of their culture. Even a non-Muslim woman must be covered when in Muslim countries (or face arrest).

It is NOT required for a Catholic woman to be veiled. It’s a personal choice.

Actually it depends on the country whether a non-Muslim woman needs to be covered. I just returned from living in a Muslim country where it was not required. Of course, if I had gone to Saudi Arabia (not that that would ever be allowed), it would have been a different story. I was free to worship and the king recently donated land for a new Catholic cathedral.
Publicly at least, everybody is required to fast during Ramadan.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s a devotion that is obviously not well-understood even by Christians, at least at this university Interfaith Center. It makes no sense to take a stand for something that other don’t understand.

Instead of “taking a stand for veiling,” why not instead seek to help others to understand why you choose to practice this devotion, the history of the practice, and why it is still meaningful today.

I realize it’s allowed to go unveiled but there is this from St. Paul (although you’re probably right and people don’t know the history):

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone is disposed to be contentious— we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16)

For alternate translations:

gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/1cor11.stm

 

[HelenRose]

Just wondering here…how is choosing to “veil” any different from choosing to hold hands during the Our Father?

Interesting question? However, for that particular example holding hands involves two people. It becomes a group response whereas wearing a veil or scarf is a personal response to God.

 

[ProVobis]

Standing up for your faith means defending life in the midst of those who advocate for abortion rights. Standing up for your faith means not attending the wedding of two friends who are gay. Standing up for your faith means not moving in with your boyfriend before marriage.

I understand your point but these items would probably fall under divine or natural law, not necessarily Christian. I can easily see Cicero, for example, who lived before Christ, adhering to such principles.

 

[firead]

Just wondering here…how is choosing to “veil” any different from choosing to hold hands during the Our Father?

The issue of whetever or not either is required (neither is) or allowed (veiling is, handholding isn’t but people ignore it and do their thing anyway) has already been addressed.

On a more personal level, the difference I see is that people might be uncomfortable with hand-holding, but they typically just don’t do it if they don’t want to, instead of getting confrontational or condemning those who do.

For some reason, “veiling” stirs up stronger reactions. On one side, you have people who get upset when a woman does it and look for reasons to condemn her as prideful, showing off, holier-thanthou, etc. One the other, you do have some women who wear a veil and then talk about it in ways that are “holier-than-thou” (ie, literally saying veiling makes them more pious, modest, reverant, or whatever than women who do not) and add fuel to that fire.

The odd thing I’ve noticed is that people seem to have more of a reaction to certain types of headcoverings, mantillas and chapel veils in particular, yet those are the very type that seem to be romanticised online and within this whole “veiling” renewal. The pastor at my home parish is not comfortable with women wearing mantillas, in part because of judgementalism and hurt feelings causings problems between people in the past, but he was fine and encouraging with the 2 or 3 of is in the congregation who cover with scarves and hats. So, I just save the mantilla for the churches I visit for weekly Mass & certain devotions, where they are worn by some other women and are not distraction to others.

Also, I have to say the whole romanticism thing online does chafe me at times, ad that might be part of what irritates others. I’m not totally comfortable with the term “veiling”, because it reminds me of the phrase “taking the veil” that used to be used of women entering the convent, and I don’t think we should confuse laywomen practicing a private devotion with religious sisters.

I also think that the focus on “the veil” is obscuring the fact that it really is about covering ones head, not a specific type of covering. I think it is burdensome that many women who wish to start covering now feel like they have to order a mantilla when they could just as easily start with a scarf, snood, or hat costing a few dollars from a local store. (I am also slightly annoyed that the price of mantillas has risen sharply since it became popular again, when I bought mine for less than $10 just a few years ago, but I’m grateful for the variety of beautiful ones out there to choose from now).

 

[ProVobis]

Interesting question? However, for that particular example holding hands involves two people. It becomes a group response whereas wearing a veil or scarf is a personal response to God.

I agree with you. But what if the example were raising one’s hands during the Our Father, which arguably might have given rise to holding hands in the first place? Just asking.

 

[Walking_Home]

I realize it’s allowed to go unveiled but there is this from St. Paul (although you’re probably right and people don’t know the history):

Quote:
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone is disposed to be contentious— we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (1 Corinthians 11:2-16)

For alternate translations:

gbgm-umc.org/umw/corinthians/1cor11.stm

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We are Not some fundamentalist sect. We follow the interpretation/teachings of the Catholic Church who plainly teaches us – that “veiling/headcovering” was a disciplinary practice of minor importance ** — and No longer has a normative value**.

 

[Walking_Home]

glendab:

Hello Dixie.

So, is it accurate to say you think I have a holier than thou attitude? If so, thanks for the fine judgment of my character. But I think name calling is not allowed here at CAF. I’m off-putting, holier than thou, not winning any friends and offensive. Fine. God bless you for your kind words.

Glenda

Well you did pretty much say that those of us who don’t ‘veil’ lack piety, modesty and reverence.

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Agree.