Veils.

[Jacafamala]

Ok, I can see how many ladies there are here who like to talk about clothes/fashions.

May I ask you for your great links on veil: where to buy. all about them, etc., etc…

There’s a TLM not too, too far away from us and now that it’s summer (we like to visit other Catholic churches in the summer time), I think we’re going to attend. I haven’t been to a TLM in several years, and it’s funny but I don’t remember there women wearing chapel veils; I think I’d remeber that. Maybe I should call ahead and find out?

Anyway, what ever you think I need to know, please feelk free to tell me. I have four girls, ages 11, 9, 4, and 2.
Thanx.
Pax Christi,
Ann

 

[Walking_Home]

Ok, I can see how many ladies there are here who like to talk about clothes/fashions.

May I ask you for your great links on veil: where to buy. all about them, etc., etc…

There’s a TLM not too, too far away from us and now that it’s summer (we like to visit other Catholic churches in the summer time), I think we’re going to attend. I haven’t been to a TLM in several years, and it’s funny but I don’t remember there women wearing chapel veils; I think I’d remeber that. Maybe I should call ahead and find out?

Anyway, what ever you think I need to know, please feelk free to tell me. I have four girls, ages 11, 9, 4, and 2.
Thanx.
Pax Christi,
Ann

---

There was a thread in this forum recently on mantillas (veils).
It may provide you with information that you may need.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=157896

 

[labernadette]

On the topic of veils, I found this interesting bit of information:

Pope Paul VI, 1969

From an article from The Atlanta Journal (June 21, 1969) entitled, “Women Required to Cover Head, Vatican Insists”, it appears that Pope Paul VI instructed one of his officials to clarify the Church’s unchanged discipline regarding head coverings for women: “A Vatican official says there has been no change, as reported, in the Roman Catholic rule that women cover their head in church. The Rev. Annibale Bugnini, secretary of the New Congregation for Divine Worship, said the reports stemmed from a misunderstanding of a statement he made at a news conference in May. ‘The rule has not been changed,’ he said. ‘It is a matter of general discipline.’”

Many women think that wearing a veil is optional. Clearly, it is not.

 

[LittleMother]

To the OP. I’ve gotten veils just at the local Catholic gift shops. You could call & see if they carry them. That would work for yourself & your older two. For the younger girls I would use a hat or bonnet.

I am a veil wearer at whatever Mass I attend & my 4 ½ mo old has never had her head uncovered in the presence of Our Lord

I do have a question for the previous poster of:

Pope Paul VI, 1969

From an article from The Atlanta Journal (June 21, 1969) entitled, “Women Required to Cover Head, Vatican Insists”, it appears that Pope Paul VI instructed one of his officials to clarify the Church’s unchanged discipline regarding head coverings for women: “A Vatican official says there has been no change, as reported, in the Roman Catholic rule that women cover their head in church. The Rev. Annibale Bugnini, secretary of the New Congregation for Divine Worship, said the reports stemmed from a misunderstanding of a statement he made at a news conference in May. ‘The rule has not been changed,’ he said. ‘It is a matter of general discipline.’”

Many women think that wearing a veil is optional. Clearly, it is not.
Reply With Quote

I am nost certainly not debating, as I believe women’s heads should be covered, but I have heard that the 1983 code of cannon law replaced the prior code. So if something was left out, that meant it was no more. Have you heard of this? Any thoughts?

 

[labernadette]

This may help answer the above query:

We have briefly surveyed the tradition of the Church on the subject; now we must look at what the law of the Church states today concerning women and head coverings. The most explicit statement came in the older, 1917 edition of the Code of Canon Law:

Men, in a church or outside a church, while they are assisting at sacred rites, shall be bare-headed, unless the approved mores of the people or peculiar circumstances of things determine otherwise; women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord. (Canon 1262.2)

Viri in ecclesia vel extra ecclesiam, dum sacris ritibus assistunt, nudo capite sint, nisi aliud ferant probati populorum mores aut peculiaria rerum adiuncta; mulieres autem, capite cooperto et modeste vestitae, maxime cum ad mensam Dominicam accedunt.

Why bring up this canon from the old Codex? Don’t we have a new Code of Canon Law in force today? Yes, we do, but a difficulty arises from this peculiar fact: the new Code does not contain this Canon from the 1917 Code. The New Code of Canon Law simply does not mention the veiling of women. So does this mean the law of the veil has been abrogated? We turn now to examine what the New Code says regarding old laws that are not carried over into the new law code. The New Code begins in this way:

[For the rest go to this] source:

lumengentleman.com/content.asp?id=220

 

[labernadette]

I found this most interesting. It is from the same article as above:

As a side note, while Catholics do not take their theological or moral direction from the first Protestant Reformers, it is certainly interesting to make mention of the fact that in the 16th century, even John Calvin took a “traditional” view of the veiling of woman, tying it to the issue of modesty. In his characteristically blunt way, Calvin says:

So if women are thus permitted to have their heads uncovered and to show their hair, they will eventually be allowed to expose their entire breasts, and they will come to make their exhibitions as if it were a tavern show; they will become so brazen that modesty and shame will be no more; in short they will forget the duty of nature. (S. Skolnitsky (tr.), Men, Women and Order in the Church: Three Sermons by John Calvin [Dallas, TX: Presbyterian Heritage Publications, 1992], p. 12)

Seems Calvin’s words have proven true. But sadly, in the Roman Catholic Church. Women with their big ideas of liberation and equality have been the death knell to civil society, propriety, decency, and it started when they stopped giving due respect to God.

 

[LittleMother]

Labernadette

In a case of doubt, the revocation of a pre-existing law is not presumed, but later laws must be related to the earlier ones and, insofar as possible, must be harmonized with them. (Canon 21, emphasis added)

Awesome, just what I was looking for. Thank you.

 

[cameron_lansing]

I enter this thread only once, briefly and only to comment on a limited point of law. This comment is not on the merit of the practice at all, but a caution on how to understand Church law.

Many laudable reasons may be presented for the practice and it could be imposed by particular law as an obligation, but it would be mistaken to assert that canon 1262 §2 of the former code of 1917 presents the basis for a continuing obligation.

On the basis of canon 6 of the present code, there is no doubt that this obligation as a universal obligation in the former code no longer applies since it was abrogated when the present code took force. Thus canon 21 would be quite irrelevant here.

Canon 6 “ §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated: 1º the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917 . . .” (“Hoc Codice vim obtinente, abrogantur . . Codex Iuris Canonici anno 1917 promulgatus. . .”).

Hence canon 1262 §2, as part of the code promulgated in 1917, was abrogated in 1983.

 

[Jacafamala]

Thanks for all the information.

At what age do you ladies start putting veils on your girls? Certainly a toddler couldn’t keep one on (lol), and how do you keep your toddler from pulling the mantilla off? I can just imagine the opportunity for fun and games that my veil would present for my two year old.
Pax Christi,
Ann

 

[tcraig]

I personally wear a hat to Sunday mass, as I feel that is a more appropriate choice than a veil.

And, just to stir the pot a bit, here is an interesting article on veiling:

redcardigan.blogspot.com/2007/06/ugly-babushka-test.html

 

[ElizabethPH]

Ok, I can see how many ladies there are here who like to talk about clothes/fashions.

May I ask you for your great links on veil: where to buy. all about them, etc., etc…

There’s a TLM not too, too far away from us and now that it’s summer (we like to visit other Catholic churches in the summer time), I think we’re going to attend. I haven’t been to a TLM in several years, and it’s funny but I don’t remember there women wearing chapel veils; I think I’d remeber that. Maybe I should call ahead and find out?

Anyway, what ever you think I need to know, please feelk free to tell me. I have four girls, ages 11, 9, 4, and 2.
Thanx.
Pax Christi,
Ann

Hi Ann, the veils/mantillas I have are from before VatII. But I found this web site that has some beautiful mantillas.

halo-works.com/category/chapel_veils_and_latin_style_mantillas/

I haven’t been to a TLM in years either, there is just not one close by…but I think the one in Little Rock or it could be one of the other two TLM’s we have in this state that has chapel veils available for those who don’t have one.

 

[lizaanne]

I personally wear a hat to Sunday mass, as I feel that is a more appropriate choice than a veil.

And, just to stir the pot a bit, here is an interesting article on veiling:

redcardigan.blogspot.com/2007/06/ugly-babushka-test.html

That is a great article!

Here is part of my response to her blog:

"I’ve been covering my head for Mass for about a month or so now, and also when I go to the adoration chapel. While I didn’t set out to try the ugly babushka test, it just sorta worked out that way.

When I decided to start covering, I didn’t have a chapel veil, but thought it was ridiculous to wait till the one I ordered came in the mail. So I dug through the scarf drawer and found a large silk scarf which I tied in the style of a Jewish tiechel, to cover my head as well as my long hair in the back. I felt totally stupid. But I felt it was what I needed to do. And when going to adoration on the spur of the moment, I have often just pulled the hood of my hoodie up over my head, even if I did look like a gang member in white.

Then the lace came in the mail, and I was just stunned at the feeling of wearing this in our Lord’s presence. I felt as if it was an absolute honor to Him and his angels. Sure - it looks VERY pretty, but it wasn’t the point. It never was."
Check out eBay for some beautiful veils - I bought a very beautiful one that is surely pre Vatican II, and I only paid $10 including shipping. There are new items posted every day, I get an alert in my email when someone adds new items in that category. I don’t plan on having a wardrobe of them, but it’s fun to see all the beautiful things that people find in old estates or sales.

~Liza

 

[labernadette]

I enter this thread only once, briefly and only to comment on a limited point of law. This comment is not on the merit of the practice at all, but a caution on how to understand Church law.

Many laudable reasons may be presented for the practice and it could be imposed by particular law as an obligation, but it would be mistaken to assert that canon 1262 §2 of the former code of 1917 presents the basis for a continuing obligation.

On the basis of canon 6 of the present code, there is no doubt that this obligation as a universal obligation in the former code no longer applies since it was abrogated when the present code took force. Thus canon 21 would be quite irrelevant here.

Canon 6 “ §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated: 1º the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917 . . .” (“Hoc Codice vim obtinente, abrogantur . . Codex Iuris Canonici anno 1917 promulgatus. . .”).

Hence canon 1262 §2, as part of the code promulgated in 1917, was abrogated in 1983.

I think that is arguable. There was NO mention of the veiling of women in the new code of canon law, hence, the part of the canon 1262 which you refer to could not of been abrogated. Furthermore, it was stated by the Pope himself ( Paul VI) that the church’s discipline on head coverings for women is UNCHANGED. This canon may not be abrogated by laymen by mere assumption.

For your edification:

A later law abrogates, or derogates from, an earlier law if it states so expressly, is directly contrary to it, or completely reorders the entire matter of the earlier law. A universal law, however, in no way derogates from a particular or special law unless the law expressly provides otherwise.

Same source as previously stated.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Thanks for all the information.

At what age do you ladies start putting veils on your girls? Certainly a toddler couldn’t keep one on (lol), and how do you keep your toddler from pulling the mantilla off? I can just imagine the opportunity for fun and games that my veil would present for my two year old.
Pax Christi,
Ann

Maybe pin a little lace hanky to her hair; she might not even notice or feel that it’s there at all, may work.

 

[ncjohn]

I think that is arguable. There was NO mention of the veiling of women in the new code of canon law, hence, the part of the canon 1262 which you refer to could not of been abrogated. Furthermore, it was stated by the Pope himself ( Paul VI) that the church’s discipline on head coverings for women is UNCHANGED. This canon may not be abrogated by laymen by mere assumption.

Yes, people at “traditionalist” web sites have been trying to make this argument now for a long time. But despite all the attempts and all the complaints, they can’t get anyone in the Vatican to say any such thing. Not a single person in any position of authority in the Church says that headcoverings are still a requirement.

So…in the absence of someone producing a document from someone with such authority, it would be safe to assume that the “doubt” that keeps getting looked to is i*ndividual *and not in the mind of the Church, and therefore that the part dealing with said doubt does not apply. That clause does nothing more than leave the *Church’s options *open to allow something that was abrogated with the entire 1917 code to come back if they felt it should have. And since Pope Paul VI precedes the Code of 1983 on this matter of discipline, no Pope after it is bound by his statements.

I have no doubt that for some it is an admirable practice to which many may personally feel called, but it really is not the least bit honest to try to make into a “requirement” something the Church refuses to state as such. One is certainly welcome to express an opinion that it should be such, but without surety from the Church, to express that as *fact *is to be dishonest.

Peace,

 

[laudamus_te]

Thanks for all the information.

At what age do you ladies start putting veils on your girls? Certainly a toddler couldn’t keep one on (lol), and how do you keep your toddler from pulling the mantilla off? I can just imagine the opportunity for fun and games that my veil would present for my two year old.
Pax Christi,
Ann

I used to wear one of those little chapel veils when I was very young, the ones that look like a little doily. I would think something like that pinned on would be best, because the child can’t see it. As far as toddlers pulling at your mantilla, I have seen young mothers at my chapel wearing their veils tied tightly underneath their hair in back. It seems to work well.

 

[lizaanne]

There was a young girl at Mass a couple weeks ago, she was about 10yrs old, and she was wearing a full size white mantilla. She looked very sweet, and was most reverent and well behaved. It was very nice to see.

~Liza

 

[Jacafamala]

I personally wear a hat to Sunday mass, as I feel that is a more appropriate choice than a veil.

And, just to stir the pot a bit, here is an interesting article on veiling:

redcardigan.blogspot.com/2007/06/ugly-babushka-test.html

Interesting read. But have you ever considered the veil as being an image of the bride of Christ? I read that somewhere on the internet, and thought that was a really beautiful way of seeing this devotion.

And in as much as it is a devotion, women who wear a chapel veil are honoring the Blessed Mother. She’s almost always dipicted wearing a veil.

What a privilage we have as women to reflect both Mary and the Church by wearing a veil. I find that so appealing.
Pax Christi,
Ann

 

[Jacafamala]

Hi Ann, the veils/mantillas I have are from before VatII. But I found this web site that has some beautiful mantillas.

halo-works.com/category/chapel_veils_and_latin_style_mantillas/

I haven’t been to a TLM in years either, there is just not one close by…but I think the one in Little Rock or it could be one of the other two TLM’s we have in this state that has chapel veils available for those who don’t have one.

Wow, there’s so many to choose from, and they’re all very pretty. Of course, I like the more expnsive ones, lol. That’s going to be a little bit of an investment to get them for myself and all the girls. I hadn’t really considered the cost. We may have to make do with scarves for a while.
Pax Christi,
Ann

 

[lizaanne]

Wow, there’s so many to choose from, and they’re all very pretty. Of course, I like the more expnsive ones, lol. That’s going to be a little bit of an investment to get them for myself and all the girls. I hadn’t really considered the cost. We may have to make do with scarves for a while.
Pax Christi,
Ann

Go to the fabric store and see if you can find some yardage of lace on the clearance rack. A friend of mine did this and she found some beautiful lace to make her own, at a significant cost savings to buying one already made. And since you don’t need much, you can find the lace at a good price if it a left over piece that has been previously cut or the end of a bolt. Add some simple lace trim, and you are all set!

~Liza