Venerable Bede

[The_Prodigal]

I agree that “in albis” becoming “eostrum” is basically impossible. The two words don’t even share any consonants, aside from , but that’s just a declension in the Latin. So actually, the words changed a lot less than he must suppose. I’m not sure what you mean by bringing Grimm’s Law into this, other than as a clever name-drop, since that sound change occurred long before Christ, and so any Christian-related borrowings from Latin to Germanic would not be phonologized anyways.

Mr. McRoy’s claim in the link provided by Ginger2 is that “eostarum” was a calque, not a direct borrowing from Latin.

According to the theory (erroneous IMO), the Germans chose a word in their own language that translated in albis. There is no assertion that the phrase in albis became eostarum by phonetic change. As McRoy rather vaguely puts it, the phrase “found its way into Old High German as eostarum.”

Incidentally, not only does in albis not mean “dawn,” but in the Grimms’ dictionary, the idea that eostar(um) meant “dawn” is pure speculation, and based on its supposed connection with the word for “east”! AFAIK, eostar or a similar form is not attested in any language with the meaning “dawn.”

 

[Spirithound]

Mr. McRoy’s claim in the link provided by Ginger2 is that “eostarum” was a calque, not a direct borrowing from Latin.

According to the theory (erroneous IMO), the Germans chose a word in their own language that translated in albis. There is no assertion that the phrase in albis became eostarum by phonetic change. As McRoy rather vaguely puts it, the phrase “found its way into Old High German as eostarum.”

Incidentally, not only does in albis not mean “dawn,” but in the Grimms’ dictionary, the idea that eostar(um) meant “dawn” is pure speculation, and based on its supposed connection with the word for “east”! AFAIK, eostar or a similar form is not attested in any language with the meaning “dawn.”

Wow…I’m not sure he ever intended a bunch of semi-professional linguists to read this! in albis, to me, is a very unlikely phrase to be a calque. There’s nothing there that wouldn’t already be in the other language. Calques are for things like “skyscraper” = French ‘gratte-ciel’ .

Hmm…oh…is he saying that because two words are (semi)equivalent, the Germanic ‘eostre’ took on the connotations of the Latin ‘in albis’ ?

 

[Ginger2]

Mr. McRoy’s claim in the link provided by Ginger2 is that “eostarum” was a calque, not a direct borrowing from Latin.

According to the theory (erroneous IMO), the Germans chose a word in their own language that translated in albis. There is no assertion that the phrase in albis became eostarum by phonetic change. As McRoy rather vaguely puts it, the phrase “found its way into Old High German as eostarum.”

Incidentally, not only does in albis not mean “dawn,” but in the Grimms’ dictionary, the idea that eostar(um) meant “dawn” is pure speculation, and based on its supposed connection with the word for “east”! AFAIK, eostar or a similar form is not attested in any language with the meaning “dawn.”

Exactly!

There are two points I would have thought were obvious.

First, bede admits what he wrote was his own personal opinion/hypotheses and not based on factual evidence or knowledge on the subject. Yet the world latches on to it like it is written in stone. Some to discredit Christianity, others to defend the RC. Both reasons are misguided - IMO.

Second, the link I posted addresses different theories from different sources, providing a critique of each without holding one above the other or claiming any concrete proof.

Meanwhile you guys spend all this time arguing against a theories the source already said have problems.

If you had read the source with an open mind to the end, I don’t see how you did not come to the most likely conclusion that, Christians in ancient Anglo-Saxon and Germanic areas called their Passover holiday what they did—doubtless colloquially at first—simply because it occurred around the time of Eosturmonath. **named after the month it usually occurred **and not after a goddess that probably didn’t even exist!

In conclusion the source states: Of course, the Christian commemoration of the Paschal festival rests not on the title of the celebration but on its content—namely, the remembrance of Christ’s death and resurrection. It is Christ’s conquest of sin, death, and Satan that gives us the right to wish everyone “Happy Easter!”

Ginger

 

[The_Prodigal]

Wow…I’m not sure he ever intended a bunch of semi-professional linguists to read this! in albis, to me, is a very unlikely phrase to be a calque. There’s nothing there that wouldn’t already be in the other language. Calques are for things like “skyscraper” = French ‘gratte-ciel’ .

Hmm…oh…is he saying that because two words are (semi)equivalent, the Germanic ‘eostre’ took on the connotations of the Latin ‘in albis’ ?

There’s no particular reason why in albis couldn’t form the (name removed by moderator)ut to a loan translation. It would have been odd to call the Easter month “Inalbismonath.” It’s just that, in this case, in albis didn’t serve as the (name removed by moderator)ut.

In general, the Germanic languages calqued words or compounds referring to designations of time, cf. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, referred to by AmbroseSJ, which were most likely calques based on Latin day names referring to gods in the Roman pantheon: dies Mercurii, dies Iovis, dies Veneris.

AFAIK the only exception to this rule is Ger. Samstag, originally limited to the High German speech area, whose first element is ultimately cognate with English “Sabbath.”

Latin month names (September, etc.) reflect a much later influence of that language.

The point is that speakers of Germanic languages at the time(s) of Latin-Germanic contact could and did refer to designations of time by the names of pagan gods. Conversion to Christianity did not necessarily result in a Christianization of these words.

Bede’s explanation carries more weight than sloppy modern speculations because Bede was a contemporary of the conversion of many of the Germanic tribes.