veneration of the saints

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paul_barlow

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now i know nothing of this subject. but i will make some assumptions. Do you still venerate the bones of the saints and if you do how does this fit with christs teaching. my wife visited cathedrals in france full of bits of bones. i thought this practice died out in the middle ages i guess i was wrong. i know the greeks do they have mummies in there cathedrals.
 
Paul,

You would be better served posting this in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. However, relics can be found in Scripture as well as the writings of the early Church…

Acts 19:11-12: God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
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Acts 5:14-16: Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by evil spirits, and all of them were healed.*
 
but veneration of bones is iconolatrous surely. its not the object that heals or blesses its the holy spirit that does the work.
 
paul barlow:
its not the object that heals or blesses its the holy spirit that does the work.
Correct, and that is what the Church teaches. Are you saying that Peter and Paul were wrong in allowing people to use relics as a conduit of the Holy Spirit’s grace?
 
If you have more questions on what the Church teaches, go to the CCC 1667-1679 as well as here
 
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arieh0310:
Correct, and that is what the Church teaches. Are you saying that Peter and Paul were wrong in allowing people to use relics as a conduit of the Holy Spirit’s grace?
i need to see the scripture. i dont remember jesus waving bones about. the saint should have been allowed to rest in their graves.
 
paul barlow:
i need to see the scripture. i dont remember jesus waving bones about. the saint should have been allowed to rest in their graves.
From the article I referred you to:
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No Veneration?

Finally, Brewer claims that “there is nothing in the Bible that supports the veneration of relics, even if they are genuine.” Again, not so.

One of the most moving accounts of the veneration of relics is that of the very body of Christ itself. Rather than leaving his body on the cross, to be taken down and disposed of by the Romans (as was the customary practice), Joseph of Arimathea courageously interceded with Pilate for Christ’s body (Mark 15:43, John 19:38). He donated his own, newly hewn tomb as Christ’s resting place (Matt. 27:60). Nicodemus came and donated over a hundred pounds of spices to wrap inside Jesus’ grave clothes (John 19:39), that amount of spices being used only for the most honored dead. And after he was buried, the women went to reverently visit the tomb (Matt. 28:1) and to further anoint Christ’s body with spices even though it had already been sealed inside the tomb (Mark 16:1, Luke 24:1). These acts of reverence were more than just the usual courtesy shown to the remains of the dead; they were special respect shown to the body of a most holy man—in this case, the holiest man who has ever lived, for he was God Incarnate.

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Relics in Early Christianity**

The veneration of relics is seen explicitly as early as the account of Polycarp’s martyrdom written by the Smyrnaeans in A.D. 156. In it, the Christians describe the events following his burning at the stake: “We took up his bones, which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place, where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy and to celebrate the birthday of his martyrdom.”

In speaking of the veneration of relics in the early Church, the anti-Catholic historian Adolph Harnack writes, “. . . [N]o Church doctor of repute restricted it. All of them rather, even the Cappadocians, countenanced it. The numerous miracles which were wrought by bones and relics seemed to confirm their worship. The Church therefore would not give up the practice, although a violent attack was made upon it by a few cultured heathens and besides by the Manichaeans” (Harnack, History of Dogma, tr., IV, 313).

In the fourth century the great biblical scholar, Jerome, declared, “We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are” (Ad Riparium, i, P.L., XXII, 907). `

Relics in Scripture

Keep in mind what the Church says about relics. It doesn’t say there is some magical power in them. There is nothing in the relic itself, whether a bone of the apostle Peter or water from Lourdes, that has any curative ability. The Church just says that relics may be the occasion of God’s miracles, and in this the Church follows Scripture.

The use of the bones of Elisha brought a dead man to life: “So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet” (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). This is an unequivocal biblical example of a miracle being performed by God through contact with the relics of a saint!

Similar are the cases of the woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). “And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them” (Acts 19:11-12).

If these aren’t examples of the use of relics, what are? In the case of Elisha, a Lazarus-like return from the dead was brought about through the prophet’s bones. In the New Testament cases, physical things (the cloak, the shadow, handkerchiefs and aprons) were used to effect cures. There is a perfect congruity between present-day Catholic practice and ancient practice. If you reject all Catholic relics today as frauds, you should also reject these biblical accounts as frauds.
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By the way, where have you ever seen Catholics “waving bones” around?
 
Veneration is not the same as adoration, or worship.

It is a term of respect.
Do we respect saintly people? Sure we do.

Now, suppose your mother is a very saintly person. When she dies, you are folding her clothes away, you touch the sweater she wore to Mass daily, you touch her rosary. You remember your mother’s faith in the Lord, it makes you feel stronger in your own faith.

THAT is veneration of a relic. (And indeed, third class relics, I believe are items of clothing or items that belonged to a saint).

Does it sound like worship?

Remember, a person’s body (bones etc.) after death are, to put it simply, items that 'belonged" to a saint. It is the SOUL that has gone to heaven. Bones from saints of long ago were treasures that people venerated as an AID.

Now it is all very well to say, “All you need is Jesus”. He is, of course, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. But He HIMSELF never said that “all you need is Me”. In fact, He very specifically told us that we needed to help one another, and in fact was very specific in His condemnation of those such as the Pharisees who loudly proclaimed that they LOVED God while hating, despising, and even killing their fellow men.

It is not “me and Jesus”, it is “me, my brothers and sisters, and Jesus”. . .and that is pointed out in many places in the Bible.
 
Just to add a bit to the excellent responses: Apostolic Christianity, in contrast to legalistic Judaism, always believed that death had no power over a true Christian - a saint.*So whereas the Jews feared death and had legal prescriptions against touching anything associated with a dead body, the early Christians proudly flaunted the freedom from the Law which they had in Christ Jesus, as well as professing their unquestionable belief in the Resurrection of the Dead, by venerating the earthly remains of their saints - saints who they knew were now with Jesus, and who, through the presence of their holy bodies (and/or though objects that they touched), continued to work mighty deeds for the Church on earth.This is a perfectly Biblical principal, in full accord with the witness of the New Testament as has already be fully demonstrated here.
 
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