Veneration vs. worship

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At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
 
Veneration is not praying to or asking said person or object to use it’s own power to help you. It is merely asking their closeness to the Lord to intercede, or it is a meditation on their holiness.

Worship is when you praise something as a god (lowercase unless it is God). Worship can be Adoration, Praise, Prayer, or Song.

In reference to Mary, if you were to start adoring her as a god then that would be worship, but there is nothing wrong with meditating on her holiness or asking her to interceede.
 
  • If we offered sacrifice to Mary
  • If we said Mary were divine, or participated in the Holy Trinity, or was a goddess or equal to God
  • If we replaced God’s or Jesus’s name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary’s name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
  • If we denied that Mary’s help was intercessory in nature, and that she achieved miracles and graces through her own power rather than God’s
 
Zenkai said:
At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
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Please, explain the part of worship you do not understand.

Wor·ship - noun
1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence
3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

worship - transitive verb
1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power
2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion
 
The word Worship is still widely used in the U.K. in freference to certain people in certain offices (as stated in JM3’s post), so I love to wind up protestants by agreeing that I do, indeed, worship Mary - just as they do the Lord Mayor & the Magistrate!

Yes, there are times when I lack charity in favour of humour 😊
 
Zenkai said:
At what point would veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the saints go too far and become worship?
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The problem first of all is that “worship” is too broad a term. While it is commonly used in a strict sense as a translation of latreia, the adoration proper to God, at other times you can also find hyperdulia or dulia (the veneration of Mary and the saints, respectively) being translated into English as “worship.” Take for example this translation of St. John of Damascus’ Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images: the translator uses “adoration” for the homage reserved to God alone, while “worship” is applied in a much broader sense.

So the question is, when does hyperdulia (let’s use Mary in this case) have the danger of crossing into latreia. From a Catholic POV, that would be when we begin to consider Mary as God or as a being equal with God (a goddess, if you will). Attempting to offer the body and blood of Mary or offering a sacrifice to Mary is wrong.
 
Elizium23 said:
  • If we offered sacrifice to Mary
  • If we said Mary were divine, or participated in the Holy Trinity, or was a goddess or equal to God
  • If we replaced God’s or Jesus’s name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary’s name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
  • If we denied that Mary’s help was intercessory in nature, and that she achieved miracles and graces through her own power rather than God’s
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The history of prayer in the Church contradicts the third bullet. May prayers of the Church say exactly those things about Mary.

-Tim-
 
patrick457 said:
The problem first of all is that “worship” is too broad a term. While it is commonly used in a strict sense as a translation of latreia, the adoration proper to God, at other times you can also find hyperdulia or dulia (the veneration of Mary and the saints, respectively) being translated into English as “worship.” Take for example this translation of St. John of Damascus’ Apologia Against Those Who Decry Holy Images: the translator uses “adoration” for the homage reserved to God alone, while “worship” is applied in a much broader sense.

So the question is, when does hyperdulia (let’s use Mary in this case) have the danger of crossing into latreia. From a Catholic POV, that would be when we begin to consider Mary as God or as a being equal with God (a goddess, if you will). Attempting to offer the body and blood of Mary or offering a sacrifice to Mary is wrong.
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“Worship” is actually the Vatican website translation of colere. It is translated, of course, differently in Italian (more along the lines of “honor”) and other languages. This makes it strictly an Anglophone issue. Apparently whoever translated the document into English wasn’t aware of the ramifications it would have.
 
TimothyH said:
If we replaced God’s or Jesus’s name in hymns or prayers of worship with Mary’s name: Glory to Mary, O Mary Beyond All Praising, Our Mother, I Will Choose Mary
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You’re going to have to cite a source for prayers that say: “[O Mary] we worship thee, we adore thee, we praise thee, we give thee thanks for thy great glory” or “[O Mary] thy kingdom come, thy will be done” or in any way makes her the equivalent of God as an object of worship.

Note that by “Our Mother” I was referring to The Lord’s Prayer by title, not just a title of Mary. Same goes for the other titles of prayers and hymns of worships.
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In my opinion many Catholics are mistakenly worshipping Mary. The reason being is that when people pray to Mary they think that she has the power to answer the prayer and it’s gives a Godlike image to her. They forget that Mary and the saints go to God, they are intercessors. You are petitioning Mary to ask Jesus for help. Yes venerate her, but worship the creator and not the creation.

This subject should really be exponded upon more often from church pulpits.
 
[HYPERDULIA] The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. “The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)

Fr. John Hardon
 
It appears that most Protestants have a great misunderstanding of the word “pray”, this seems to be why many feel we worship Mary and the saints.

I just had a conversation with a woman who is from Mexico and has become a member of Calvary Chapel. She told me she only prays to “God” as though Catholics pray to Mary etc. The definition of prayer has changed and I tried to explain to her that to pray in regards to Mary and the saints is just “asking” for them to ask God to help us in bad situations, as you would a friend or your pastor. She said "oh I ask my pastor to pray to God for me, however, I am sure she still does not understand that praying can mean asking for others to join in your petitions to God.

Unless one is capable of understanding what the difference is, then there seems to be no hope that they will accept the fact that Catholics are not directing their petitions to Mary or the saints as Divine but as a “friend”. It seems that because the word “pray” is misunderstood many Protestants believe we “worship” Mary just as one worships God.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
BernadetteM said:
It seems that because the word “pray” is misunderstood many Protestants believe we “worship” Mary just as one worships God.
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It is not a misunderstanding of the word “pray”. It is a misunderstanding and misuse of the word “worship”.

Catholics do worship (transitive verb) the Blessed Virgin Mary and rightly so.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
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971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
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Elizium23 said:
You’re going to have to cite a source for prayers that say: “[O Mary] we worship thee, we adore thee, we praise thee, we give thee thanks for thy great glory” or “[O Mary] thy kingdom come, thy will be done” or in any way makes her the equivalent of God as an object of worship.

Note that by “Our Mother” I was referring to The Lord’s Prayer by title, not just a title of Mary. Same goes for the other titles of prayers and hymns of worships.
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The “Our Mother” then is what threw me off. I did not know that you intended it to be a reference to the “Our Father” or Lord’s Prayer.

There are many hymns and prayers of praise for Mary.

**O pure and immaculate and likewise blessed Virgin, who art the sinless Mother of thy Son, the mighty Lord of the universe, thou who art inviolate and altogether holy, the hope of the hopeless and sinful, we sing thy praises. We bless thee, as full of every grace, thou who didst bear the God-Man: we all bow low before thee; we invoke thee and implore thine aid. Rescue us, O holy and inviolate Virgin, from every necessity that presses upon us and from all the temptations of the devil. Be our intercessor and advocate at the hour of death and judgement; deliver us from the fire that is not extinguished and from the outer darkness; make us worthy of the glory of thy Son, O dearest and most clement Virgin Mother. Thou indeed art our only hope, most sure and sacred in God’s sight, to whom be honor and glory, majesty and dominion, for ever and ever, world without end. Amen.
** - Saint Ephrem the Syrian

There are many more. I’m not going to search for references.

-Tim-
 
Of course there are. As far as I know, giving ordinary praise is dulia, as long as we don’t say “all praise and honor to thee” to anyone but God, it is OK to praise humans and saints and angels. But certainly hymns of prayers of worship and adoration cannot be adapted for anyone but God. That was my bullet point and I stand by my assertion.
 
Elizium23 said:
Of course there are. As far as I know, giving ordinary praise is dulia, as long as we don’t say “all praise and honor to thee” to anyone but God, it is OK to praise humans and saints and angels. But certainly hymns of prayers of worship and adoration cannot be adapted for anyone but God. That was my bullet point and I stand by my assertion.
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I’m sure somewhere deep in the top secret Catholic Archives somewhere is a prayer written by some obscure monk/saint, which says exactly that - “all praise and honor to thee” - and when people read it they will get all freaked out. When they hear someone consecrated to Mary say it they will get even more freaked out.

Reading the rule of St. Benedict out of context gets people upset. Reading anything specific to a certain spirituality without the proper context gets people all out of joint.

Its a spirituality. Let it go.

-Tim-
 
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