Venial Sin - Forgivable Without Baptism?

[suissemissed]

Hey everyone, I already posted this in the “Ask an Apologist” section, but since I seem to have pretty bad luck in getting questions answered there ( ), I thought I would post it here too and see what everyone thinks

Basically, as a Protestant, I was taught that ALL sin, no matter how small, merit eternal punishment for those who have not “accepted Jesus as their Savior.” But I’ve read on Catholic apologist sites that the Church says venial sins are not worthy of eternal damnation.

So my question is: Can someone who is unbaptized be forgiven of their venial sins and admitted to Heaven, if they have not ever committed any mortal sin?

The question is hypothetical - I know how ridiculous it sounds to suggest that someone could go their whole life and not commit at least one mortal sin… but still, I’m curious what the theological answer would be

Thanks!

 

[Bookcat]

An unbaptized person is saved by Jesus of Nazareth…not merely by not committing mortal sin…

Or per se being then forgiven of venial sins…

(They begin in fact with original sin)

If they are saved it will be either via Faith in Jesus and Baptism into his death and resurrection or via a kind of implicit or explicit desire for such…via grace…and via even if they through no fault of their own do not come to know Jesus or his Church…it is possible for them to be saved via a way known only to God. If they are saved outside the ordinary manner…it will *still *be via Jesus and in relation to the Church in a mysterious way.

Thus by Jesus …explicitly or a way he knows but we do not…they may enter into true life. And depart this life “in life”.

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI:

1. Is Baptism necessary for salvation?

1257

Baptism is necessary for salvation for all those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.

1. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?

1258-1261
1281-1283

Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[ConstantineTG]

To be saved, one must receive God’s grace. To receive God’s grace, one must be baptized. However, we shouldn’t think that God can be limited by the Sacraments. God instituted the Sacraments for man, but is not limited by it. We cannot assume or presume, but it is indeed possible that one may be saved if God chooses so. But it is up to God to make a way. For those of us who know, why deny ourselves of the Sacraments? Its meant to be a visible way to know we receive God’s graces. Because we are physical beings, God gave us physical signs. Lets make use of them.

 

[underacloud]

I know how ridiculous it sounds to suggest that someone could go their whole life and not commit at least one mortal sin…

Why would this be ridiculous?

While it might seem difficult for a person to go their whole life without committing grave sin, the act of committing mortal sin involves a lot more than grave matter. To commit mortal sin isn’t merely to commit grave sin; it is to commit grave sin with full knowledge and deliberate consent…pretty much to turn one’s back on God. This is always a matter between the sinner and God. God is the only judge of full knowledge and deliberate consent, so the reality of mortal sin isn’t something that we can speculate on in this life; we acknowledge our sinfulness and entrust ourselves to God’s mercy.

Mortal sin isn’t about ticking off boxes (eg was this sin bad enough to be considered mortal?), it’s about breaking our relationship with God. It may well be, and is my hope, that by God’s mercy it turns out that mortal sin is far more difficult to commit than most of us could imagine.

Anyway, this is a moot point to the current conversation, but I think the other posters so far have addressed the key questions.

 

[thistle]

Why would this be ridiculous?

While it might seem difficult for a person to go their whole life without committing grave sin, the act of committing mortal sin involves a lot more than grave matter. To commit mortal sin isn’t merely to commit grave sin; it is to commit grave sin with full knowledge and deliberate consent…pretty much to turn one’s back on God. This is always a matter between the sinner and God. God is the only judge of full knowledge and deliberate consent, so the reality of mortal sin isn’t something that we can speculate on in this life; we acknowledge our sinfulness and entrust ourselves to God’s mercy.

Mortal sin isn’t about ticking off boxes (eg was this sin bad enough to be considered mortal?), it’s about breaking our relationship with God. It may well be, and is my hope, that by God’s mercy it turns out that mortal sin is far more difficult to commit than most of us could imagine.

Anyway, this is a moot point to the current conversation, but I think the other posters so far have addressed the key questions.

People confuse and over analyse the expression “full knowledge” and try to find an excuse to say they have not committed a mortal sin. A mortal sin is not hard to commit.
It is very simple. If a person knows that the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter then that satisfies full knowledge.
In short, if you know something is a sin of grave matter and you go ahead and commit the act anyway then a mortal sin has been committed.

 

[Jim_Roberts]

Hey everyone, I already posted this in the “Ask an Apologist” section, but since I seem to have pretty bad luck in getting questions answered there ( ), I thought I would post it here too and see what everyone thinks

Basically, as a Protestant, I was taught that ALL sin, no matter how small, merit eternal punishment for those who have not “accepted Jesus as their Savior.” But I’ve read on Catholic apologist sites that the Church says venial sins are not worthy of eternal damnation.

So my question is: Can someone who is unbaptized be forgiven of their venial sins and admitted to Heaven, if they have not ever committed any mortal sin?

The question is hypothetical - I know how ridiculous it sounds to suggest that someone could go their whole life and not commit at least one mortal sin… but still, I’m curious what the theological answer would be

---

Until you asre baptised the child is in sin; once the chilod is baptised, he is free of all mortal and venial sins,m of course until he reaxches the age of reason. LET’DS LRSVE THIS QUESTION TO O gOD TO ANSWER.

JESUS I ITRUST IN YOU

jr

 

[underacloud]

People confuse and over analyse the expression “full knowledge” and try to find an excuse to say they have not committed a mortal sin. A mortal sin is not hard to commit.
It is very simple. If a person knows that the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter then that satisfies full knowledge.
In short, if you know something is a sin of grave matter and you go ahead and commit the act anyway then a mortal sin has been committed.

It is most certainly not that simple. The Church also teaches that there are many factors that diminish or completely eliminate a person’s culpability. You have presented an oversimplified version of Church teaching.

The Church provides guidelines, but only God knows and judges these matters.

Catechism 1861 “…although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.”

 

[thistle]

It is most certainly not that simple. The Church also teaches that there are many factors that diminish or completely eliminate a person’s culpability. You have presented an oversimplified version of Church teaching.

The Church provides guidelines, but only God knows and judges these matters.

Catechism 1861 “…although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.”

Culpability can be reduced by:

• not knowing the Church teaches some is of grave matter
• diminished mental capacity
• addiction
• coercion

Most people do not fall into the above categories although many claim one or more in order to justify their sins and to justify continuing to sin.

For the sake of argument let’s assume a person does not fall into the above four then if they know the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter and they go ahead and do it anyway then they have committed a mortal sin. Its that simple.

 

[Bookcat]

Catechism 1861 “…although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.”

Yes that is true. In terms of others.

Though in terms of ourselves…we can judge “I committed a mortal sin”. Via the criteria the Church give us. We can be morally certain that we did. Or did not.

(God of course knows in the end if we judged ourselves correctly or not)

 

[underacloud]

Culpability can be reduced by:

• not knowing the Church teaches some is of grave matter
• diminished mental capacity
• addiction
• coercion

**Most people do not fall into the above categories **although many claim one or more in order to justify their sins and to justify continuing to sin.

How do you know? God knows. You and I do not!

For the sake of argument **let’s assume a person does not fall into the above four **then if they know the Church teaches something is a sin of grave matter and they go ahead and do it anyway then they have committed a mortal sin. Its that simple.

Let’s not assume. Let’s leave it to God.

God will judge each of us. Perhaps you are right and that many of us convince ourselves that we have not committed mortal sin when in fact we have. Perhaps you are wrong and God’s standards regarding culpability/consent/knowledge are different than yours. I just don’t think it’s right to speculate or assume that committing mortal sin is easy and that many or most people do it. I’ll leave it up to God.

 

[thistle]

How do you know? God knows. You and I do not!

Let’s not assume. Let’s leave it to God.

God will judge each of us. Perhaps you are right and that many of us convince ourselves that we have not committed mortal sin when in fact we have. Perhaps you are wrong and God’s standards regarding culpability/consent/knowledge are different than yours. I just don’t think it’s right to speculate or assume that committing mortal sin is easy and that many or most people do it. I’ll leave it up to God.

You sound like you are trying to give excuses and an easy way out for mortal sinners. There is not.
If a person knows the Church teaches something is of grave matter and that person is not subject to coercion, addiction, or mental incapacity and that person goes ahead and commits the act then they have committed a mortal sin. Its that simple.
Stop making excuses for such people.

 

[underacloud]

Yes that is true. In terms of others.

Though in terms of ourselves…we can judge “I committed a mortal sin”. Via the criteria the Church give us. We can be morally certain that we did. Or did not.

(God of course knows in the end if we judged ourselves correctly or not)

Hi Bookcat.

On one hand I find what you’ve written a little contradictory - that we can judge “I commited a mortal sin” with moral certainty, but also that “God…knows…if we judged ourselves correctly or not”. On the other hand, I think that it matches with my own interpretation of Church teaching, perhaps with terminology the grey area here.

We can each be certain when we have committed a grave sin (objective mortal sin), knowingly and deliberately. We can know that we have offended God and ought to turn back to Him through the sacrament of confession. But it is up to God to judge whether our grave sin constitutes mortal sin - whether our knowledge and consent meet His standards, not our own.

 

[underacloud]

You sound like you are trying to give excuses and an easy way out for mortal sinners. There is not.

I “sound like”. Please don’t infer motive on my part and keep to what I have said, not what you think I’m trying to achieve. What have I written that is contradictory to Church teaching?

If a person knows the Church teaches something is of grave matter and that person is not subject to coercion, addiction, or mental incapacity and that person goes ahead and commits the act then they have committed a mortal sin. Its that simple.

That is simple. What isn’t simple is to determine whether someone is subject to coercion, addiction, or mental incapacity. You and I can’t judge that, so neither of us can speculate. Again, I’ll leave it up to God.

 

[Bookcat]

Hi Bookcat.

On one hand I find what you’ve written a little contradictory - that we can judge “I commited a mortal sin” with moral certainty, but also that “God…knows…if we judged ourselves correctly or not”. On the other hand, I think that it matches with my own interpretation of Church teaching, perhaps with terminology the grey area here.

We can each be certain when we have committed a grave sin (objective mortal sin), knowingly and deliberately. We can know that we have offended God and ought to turn back to Him through the sacrament of confession. But it is up to God to judge whether our grave sin constitutes mortal sin - whether our knowledge and consent meet His standards, not our own.

Not really contradictory. Yes our judgments can be off. My point was that such a possibility of error on our part does not leave us in a kind of “moral -agnosticism”-- we can have moral certainty.

And thus be morally certain either that we have committed a mortal sin or have not.

That is why the Church gives us these principles. And how we can be conscious of committing mortal sin and thus need to go to confession and refrain from Holy Communion until then…

 

[underacloud]

Not really contradictory. Yes our judgments can be off. My point was that such a possibility of error on our part does not leave us in a kind of “moral -agnosticism”-- we can have moral certainty.

And thus be morally certain either that we have committed a mortal sin or have not.

That is why the Church gives us these principles. And how we can be conscious of committing mortal sin and thus need to go to confession and refrain from Holy Communion until then…

I’m still a little unsure whether we agree or not. Like I said, it is the terminology that might be a little grey. Perhaps we are saying the same thing using different words. Could you confirm whether you would agree with what I wrote previously, or if you think I am in error please point it out:

We can each be certain when we have committed a grave sin (objective mortal sin), knowingly and deliberately. We can know that we have offended God and ought to turn back to Him through the sacrament of confession. But it is up to God to judge whether our grave sin constitutes mortal sin - whether our knowledge and consent meet His standards, not our own.

 

[TrueLight]

You sound like you are trying to give excuses and an easy way out for mortal sinners. There is not.
If a person knows the Church teaches something is of grave matter and that person is not subject to coercion, addiction, or mental incapacity and that person goes ahead and commits the act then they have committed a mortal sin. Its that simple.
Stop making excuses for such people.

I actually was agreeing with you until you said “such people”.

If it is not that hard to commit a mortal sin then a lot of us have committed mortal sins. Maybe not you.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m still a little unsure whether we agree or not. Like I said, it is the terminology that might be a little grey. Perhaps we are saying the same thing using different words. Could you confirm whether you would agree with what I wrote previously, or if you think I am in error please point it out:

We can each be certain when we have committed a grave sin (objective mortal sin), knowingly and deliberately. We can know that we have offended God and ought to turn back to Him through the sacrament of confession. But it is up to God to judge whether our grave sin constitutes mortal sin - whether our knowledge and consent meet His standards, not our own.

I would not exactly agree entirely…

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

The terms are interchangable both in the objective and subjective sense.

We can be morally certain we have committed a mortal sin (grave sin, serious sin). Not only that we have done what is objectively grave matter but also if we did it with full knowledge and deliberate consent. And thus committed a mortal sin (grave sin, serious sin).

We can though still make an error in such judgment. But we are not in any way “moral-agnostics”. We can have at least moral certainty that we have committed a mortal sin.

Even though our judgment is open to error.

And yes God of course knows all…

Hopefully I was clearer…

 

[underacloud]

Mortal sin = grave sin = serious sin

The terms are interchangable both in the objective and subjective sense.

Sorry, rather than say “grave sin” I should say “grave offense” (or “sin involving grave matter”).

I’m still not convinced that you and I differ greatly in our views here, but perhaps in how we express them.

 

[thistle]

I actually was agreeing with you until you said “such people”.

If it is not that hard to commit a mortal sin** then a lot of us have committed mortal sins**. Maybe not you.

I am most definitely a sinner. I agree with you. Lots of us have committed mortal sins.
I would venture to say that probably every Catholic (above the age of reason and those outside the confines of reduced culpability) has committed mortal sins. While it is theoretically possible for a person to go through life in a permanent state of grace, in my opinion it is highly improbable.