Venial to Mortal Sin Confessions

[PbloPicasso]

This is NOT an opinion questions. It is more directed towards those that live an religious vowed or ordained ministry life. None of us should judge a lack of well formed conscience or an extreme in the opposite direction, scrupulosity. Caution should be taken before answering so as to not scandalize or be uncharitable. BE NICE.

Specific Case:
At what point should one confess missing mass?

Missing mass because of the following: illness, not feeling mentally or physically well, anxiety/depression episode, extreme anxiety self or spouse, or child, ill spouse, ill children, injury (degree?), transportation, traveling, etc.

Assumptions:

The penitent loves God and loves to worship God, but situation reflects the specific possible case.

I’m praying that this is charitable and productive.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This is NOT an opinion questions. It is more directed towards those that live an religious vowed or ordained ministry life. None of us should judge a lack of well formed conscience or an extreme in the opposite direction, scrupulosity. Caution should be taken before answering so as to not scandalize or be uncharitable. BE NICE.

Specific Case:
At what point should one confess missing mass?

Missing mass because of the following: illness, not feeling mentally or physically well, anxiety/depression episode, extreme anxiety self or spouse, or child, ill spouse, ill children, injury (degree?), transportation, traveling, etc.

Assumptions:

The penitent loves God and loves to worship God, but situation reflects the specific possible case.

I’m praying that this is charitable and productive.

Not a “vowed religious,” but I’m clear on the guidelines:

Missing Mass due to circumstances beyond one’s control – and despite one’s sincere best efforts – is not a sin because it lacks the essential element of deliberation (consent). Within that can be categorized all the family emergencies and transportation emergencies (no bus route, car broke down; or snowstorm, etc. without sufficent alternatives).

Missing Mass because of physical illness is not only not sinful, it is an act of charity toward the congregation (if the illness is a contagious one). If the illness is not contagious (and presents a practical hardship), then, like the first paragraph, it qualifies as circumstances beyond one’s control (rather than of one’s own making, or a dishonest excuse).

Missing Mass because of mental illness:
If the illness is chronic, and the person has been told (or knows) he needs treatment, then the person should be seeking treatment, if possible. With treatment (such as depression), people can often conduct their affairs with some normalcy. With more debilitating versions of mental illness (such as agoraphobia, which makes it terrifying to leave one’s abode), the untreated or insufficiently treated person would be excused from such obligations. Just note that God wants us mentally well even more than He wants us at Mass, in any case, so seeking treatment is a holy act. It’s proper self-love.

Missing Mass because of family circumstances (spouse suddenly called to work on an emergency, cannot baby-sit sick child, no time provisions for alternate child care) is not sinful.

Missing Mass because of practical obstacles (flat tire 20 minutes before the last Mass of the day; last bus has also left) is not sinful. (Person had no foreknowledge so as to plan alternatives; circumstances were beyond control.) Knowing several hours ahead that the car is not reliable today and there’s plenty of time to plan alternate, available transportation does not excuse missing Mass. That’s laziness/lukewarmness & violates the obligation to exercise prudence & responsibility.

One Sunday a few months ago I took a nap late in the day (I go to a late Mass). I had been fatigued recently. I overslept from the nap and missed Mass. It wasn’t laziness on my part – or merely indulging a nap at an imprudent time. When I woke up I realized that my body was trying to fend off an illness, which was why I had been fatigued the whole weekend. Valid excuse, even though it was my loss.

When possible, we should look ahead. If a family knows that Sunday will be problematic in terms of some complex scheduling, or a child is already ill, the best thing would be for one spouse to try to make the Saturday Vigil Mass, or even a super-early morning Sunday Mass, so that he or she is available to handle family needs for most of Sunday.

The truly physically homebound (on a chronic basis – weakening illness, for example; in chronic pain, etc.) can be brought Communion in many parishes.

You confess it when you’ve been irresponsible about planning, not when you haven’t been.
You confess it when it doesn’t qualify as accidental or circumstances beyond control.
You confess it when you’re physically able and healthy enough to attend and not spread contagion.

 

[JRKH]

Elizabeth has nailed it…

 

[PbloPicasso]

My pastor excuses me when my wife is ill… whatever the illness. The illness is exhaustion, depression, anxiety, all neatly wrapped up in one. Nice little package. Just being around people triggers it. Trying to take care of one of our children can exacerbate the problem. So chronic depression fits the criteria as I understand it. No one plans when a bad week and lets say allergies.

Example:
I stayed home last Sunday. I was tired, more like exhausted. Our family’s was ill, particularly me, chronic allergies (severe). The combination of stress, illness and allergies drains you. I chose to go to Lowes to buy some Clorox and look for solutions for my bathroom floor which had been soaked for days. I pulled out the carpet and verified black mold, which I believe was making my daughter’s allergies flair up because she’s right next to the bathroom. My allergies have been through the roof and my wife seems to have contracted some sort of upper respiratory illness that could have been causes from mold.

Further stressing us out is the fact that our youngest son has missed a day of school nearly every week as is beginning to affect his grades, causing communications with teachers that don’t really want to teach or think they have more authority over our children than we do. I chewed out the principal after he sent me an email to a response to my son’s teachers that were giving him bad grades for not turning in makeup homework on time. We’ve all been ill. The principal told me I as not being professional. I scolded him in a response email and told him his place. i even sent a quote for the CCC.

It’s a very annoying situation when teachers believe they have more authority over your children and act like you don’t know anything. My wife’s a teacher both of us are pursuing graduate degrees in education. I’m pursuing Early Childhood to 6th grade certification on top of the grad degree. I’ve learned quite a bit about children from a daycare we used to run out of our home and raising 3 well balanced children. It fascinates me now.

Sorry for the divergence, but I felt it appropriate to elaborate why we’re so stressed and ill.

I’m interested in hearing more responses.

 

[JRKH]

Obviously you are not missing mass for insufficient reason. Illness, allergies, and the associated stress and exhaustion are obviously contributing factors.

Definitely get that carpet out of the bathroom and don’t put any other carpet down in there. Clean it thoroughly and put down some vinyl or tile.

Talk with your pastor and/or confessor about these stresses and try to spend some time in quiet prayer both singularly and also as a couple and family.

May God be with you

Peace
James

 

[PbloPicasso]

Obviously you are not missing mass for insufficient reason. Illness, allergies, and the associated stress and exhaustion are obviously contributing factors.

Definitely get that carpet out of the bathroom and don’t put any other carpet down in there. Clean it thoroughly and put down some vinyl or tile.

Talk with your pastor and/or confessor about these stresses and try to spend some time in quiet prayer both singularly and also as a couple and family.

May God be with you

Peace
James

Thank you for your advice. But have I not made myself clear already? Or have you not read my post? I’m giving an example and trying to lead it to the issue of converts. It’s interesting how some clergy think they know more than they do and make eroneous comments that do not apply in terms of Catholicism, but more over to catechesis in the form of explaining more precisely certain aspects of sin that may be foreign to non-Catholics. May I forgot to add the following during my edit:

My wife’s job only allows 5 sick days per year. She’s a teacher in a poor school. I quit an engineering job to help relieve her stress/symptoms. I believe a recent bout of cancer threw her into this situation. I don’t always miss mass to take care of her, but in this particular case I decided to miss initially deferred it to attend evening mass. However I was feeling very down and thought it was because of my chronic condition but had to reach deep inside to rise above. However, about 2 hours prior to mass I chose to rip out a carpet I suspected was infested with mold underneath. I was right.

Monday, my wife stayed home form work feeling ill. and then we received a call from out of town that my mother-in-law had a mild heart attack. So we packed up and pulled the kids out of school to go out of state. On our way back home on Tuesday, our pastor excused us from the Holy Day of Obligation. My wife is in contact with him via email fairly regularly since her conversion. He’s pretty good about returning our emails. He gave us permission to miss. Good thing, because we were all exhausted and my son got sick again on the way home. I kept the kids home the following day.

It seems that we’re in a constant state of stress, which causes illness. Depression and anxieties can be triggered by allergies, physical injuries, mental illnesses and stress. Father considers me my wife’s caregiver. Just that alone gives me permission to stay with her if I feel it best.

Since we became Catholic, (me reverted) it’s been interesting to try to figure out how to approach sin in confession. The “laundry list” is bazaar to me. We try to go often, no more than 3 or 4 months, even without mortal sins to confess. Coming from a fundamentalist faith, Church of Christ, all sin is considered equal, thus grave. Just a lie would be considered really bad. Missing worship is considered bad. Missing bible class is considered bad. If one’s schedule is open, “do not forsake the assembly” is in effect. One must obey the elders in all things under the Lord. So, it’s interesting that when i would speak to a priest he would consider me scrupulous, which is far from truth.

What cradle Catholics don’t understand about some fundamentalist groups are taught. It takes time to understand things in a different light. I was not raised Catholic. After my father started bringing or making us go to mass we were teenagers. I loved church, but was taught all sorts of non-sense. Lot’s of heresy from what I now understand. I was taught “the church no longer teaches that”. I even went to the seminary and was still very confused. It seemed impossible to figure out what was right and what was wrong. So I used scripture since my earliest years to guide me, since no Catholic adult or clergy would take the time to explain in terms I understood. They may have explained, but without a Catholic conscience it can be difficult. However, the ones’ that said “the church no longer teaches that” are gravely misguided.

I’ll stop running my mouth. The events of this weekend just got me wondering how other Catholics handle this. I am also interested in seeing what other religious and clergy have to say about this. Interesting topic. I believe the Holy Spirit guides priests during confession. But He doesn’t guide them to the point that they know the mind of God. We just submit with humility, a good act of self-mortification I presume. That’s why I confess all even if its not mortal. It helps clear my mind so that nothing is left on my conscience that was formed by fundamentalist beliefs. Ironic, isn’t it.

 

[JRKH]

I guess that you are right and I still do not understand what you are driving at. Frankly I just don’t see a clearly expressed question…

At the end of your post above you say, “The events of this weekend just got me wondering how other Catholics handle this.” What is the “this” that you want to know how we handle?


One other thing that I noted in your post that I will briefly address. You said, “The ‘laundry list’ (for confession) is bazaar to me.” This is a sentiment that I agree with.
We are taught to use the ten commandments as a checklist for our sins and this is fine up to a point. However, as one grows older and (hopefully) more mature in their spiritual life this loses its value in my opinion.
This is why I choose to use the “seven deadly sins” as my examination. The ten commandments are fine for actions, but to me they are not terribly deep nor do they really speak to the underlying causes (faults) for our sins.
Using the ten commandments I might find that I took the lords name in vain three times without thinking, but in examining this I find that the reason was anger. The actual events might be considered as venial sin because I did not “think” but just blurted out God’s name. But the underlying cause (anger) is something much more serious.
These are the things that need to be addressed in confession and need to be worked on between confession.
Just my 2 cents on your comment…

Peace
James

 

[PbloPicasso]

JDRH,
Thanks for engaging in discourse instead of treading on me. I get in a cranky mood sometimes. This past week has been difficult for me. Not part of the thread really, though.

I like the idea of using the seven deadly sins instead of the commandments. Only once, my first confession in November 2006 was similar to a “laundry list” only because Protestants don’t consider the same things sinful - which was really a struggle for many years.

I never cursed, particualarly used the Lord’s name in vain until I reverted. It disturbed me that it even crossed my lips out of nowhere in my anger. I usually get angry and just controlled my temper, feelings. I believe reverting, as you did, brought back some of the pent up anger inside of me over the priest situation I spoke about. It’s water under the bridge now, but still a soar spot considering that I left the seminary over it. Going to a fundamentalist faith rectified a lot of mixed faith beliefs I always held in my heart that were never debunked until I was ready - I guess. Education, life experiences, family and lost faith in leaders in my former Protestant faith all lead me to question everything. Dirverging again. Sorry. Back to using the Lord’s name in vain. You are absolutely correct. It’s really anger, not mortal, but the words are so off color that it always makes me cringe when I hear it. However, I don’t judge people for it. I understand that we all slip when we get angry. My pastor clarified that one for me. But I had to dig for the answer. Fortunately, our pastor has a history of turning in bad priests against the bishops wishes. He saw the truth that the children needed help and that was their real ministry, not protecting the monster he turned in that they counted over 900 victims. The bishop appeared to hide that priest by transferring him to another diocese. Our pastor is a religious friar, know to speak his mind at the appropriate times. He’s my hero, and began a 30 year healing process for me. Most priest are good. Very few are … well you know.

Since I was not raised Catholic from birth, only being baptized at 14 months old I discovered, I had no idea or concept of true Catholic teaching. Long story. So I just started a conversation, not really a question. To see how others, like you, discovered or dealt with the concept of confessing sins. I gave the example above simply because it was a more recent affair. For me, a confession must be heartfelt or its no confession at all. I must feel remorse or I’ve wasted the priests time and in my opinion, offend God.

 

[Elizabeth502]

One other thing that I noted in your post that I will briefly address. You said, “The ‘laundry list’ (for confession) is bazaar to me.” This is a sentiment that I agree with.
We are taught to use the ten commandments as a checklist for our sins and this is fine up to a point. However, as one grows older and (hopefully) more mature in their spiritual life this loses its value in my opinion.
This is why I choose to use the “seven deadly sins” as my examination. The ten commandments are fine for actions, but to me they are not terribly deep nor do they really speak to the underlying causes (faults) for our sins.

Apparently that makes 3 of us. It’s my approach as well. Think about it (everyone): God has the Laundry List already in his clear vision, down to each occasion of it. A recitation doesn’t advance our relationship with him much unless it’s accompanied by an acknowledgement of the deeper issues. That’s what a true Examen should include. (I agree with JRKH that it often takes some emotional and spiritual maturity to recognize this.)

It’s a relationship. When we apologize to our loved ones and friends, hopefully we similarly acknowledge at least to a tiny degree, what motivated us. (“Sorry, honey; I shouldn’t have snapped at you; I was really burned out and frustrated at work and took it out on you, which was unfair. You didn’t deserve to be hurt on account of my anger at someone else.”) Versus a matter-of-fact, “I yelled at you today.” (Like she didn’t know that. )

 

[JRKH]

JDRH,
Thanks for engaging in discourse instead of treading on me. I get in a cranky mood sometimes. This past week has been difficult for me. Not part of the thread really, though.

No problem. it is obvious from your posts that you are dealing with a lot.

I like the idea of using the seven deadly sins instead of the commandments. Only once, my first confession in November 2006 was similar to a “laundry list” only because Protestants don’t consider the same things sinful - which was really a struggle for many years.

Understood. When I came back to the Church after 35 years, I must admit that my first confession back was rather poor. Father was very patient and absolved me even though it was obvious that I had not made a thorough examination of conscience.
After a bit this weighed on me and as I began considering how to approach and deal with this I didn’t feel the “laundry list” was appropriate because who can remember all ones sins in that length of time…
Then I stumbled upon the 7 deadly sins…and I knew I had what I needed… not just to confess, but to truly examine me and see where I was failing my Lord.

I never cursed, particualarly used the Lord’s name in vain until I reverted. It disturbed me that it even crossed my lips out of nowhere in my anger. I usually get angry and just controlled my temper, feelings. I believe reverting, as you did, brought back some of the pent up anger inside of me over the priest situation I spoke about. It’s water under the bridge now, but still a soar spot considering that I left the seminary over it. Going to a fundamentalist faith rectified a lot of mixed faith beliefs I always held in my heart that were never debunked until I was ready - I guess. Education, life experiences, family and lost faith in leaders in my former Protestant faith all lead me to question everything. Dirverging again. Sorry. Back to using the Lord’s name in vain. You are absolutely correct. It’s really anger, not mortal, but the words are so off color that it always makes me cringe when I hear it. However, I don’t judge people for it. I understand that we all slip when we get angry. My pastor clarified that one for me. But I had to dig for the answer. Fortunately, our pastor has a history of turning in bad priests against the bishops wishes. He saw the truth that the children needed help and that was their real ministry, not protecting the monster he turned in that they counted over 900 victims. The bishop appeared to hide that priest by transferring him to another diocese. Our pastor is a religious friar, know to speak his mind at the appropriate times. He’s my hero, and began a 30 year healing process for me. Most priest are good. Very few are … well you know.

I am fortunate in that I never really had a bad experience with a priest. But I definitely understand about losing faith in leadership and many other faith questions.
Anyway - I’m glad that my comments have been helpful.

Since I was not raised Catholic from birth, only being baptized at 14 months old I discovered, I had no idea or concept of true Catholic teaching. Long story. So I just started a conversation, not really a question. To see how others, like you, discovered or dealt with the concept of confessing sins. I gave the example above simply because it was a more recent affair. For me, a confession must be heartfelt or its no confession at all. I must feel remorse or I’ve wasted the priests time and in my opinion, offend God.

Agreed. Repentance and conversion and restoration through the sacrament of confession really begins before we enter the confessional. In fact, I would say that in many cases, the confessional is the last “formality” on that journey of restoration.
After committing a sin, first must come conviction in our hearts that we sinned. Second comes remorse, third repentance followed by a sincere act of contrition and the deisre that God give us the grace and strength to resist further sin. Finally we come to the confessional to formally profess our guilt, receive feedback and guidance as needed and absolution from our confessor acting in Persona Christi.

God is good and has given us a wonderful gift in this sacrament.

Peace
James

 

[PbloPicasso]

…
God is good and has given us a wonderful gift in this sacrament.

Peace
James

All the time!

I did a lengthy examination of consience before entering into confession. It was very difficult because as I said, Protestant sins are not the same as Catholic sins. I also was accustomed to confessing directly to God. We, our faith, strongly recommended same sex “directors” or “mentors” to maintain a sense of honesty with oneself and with God. Accountable is the term used. But as I said, many, if not most, Protestants would call things that we’ve already spoke of as serious. Using bad language would be consider really bad. Sterilization and ABC is not considered evil, but convenient technology that God made available. Masturbation or sex with one spouse was not considered wrong by many, if not most. I did know one woman that came out and said that she believed it was evil, which makes her the special case. But everyone is supposed to follow their conscience - even if it was something simple like chasing someone down two states over to return a penny.

Divorce is considered a serious sin too. Remarrying is sinful and will get you disfellowshiped unless your spouse was unfaithful, but even still it was discouraged for the sake of the spouse that cheated in hopes that they would repent from their evil ways and reconcile with their spouse. Our family has a multitude of preachers, deacons and bishops/elders. We even required weekly attendance as well as weekly communion. It was very similar to what I perceived Catholicism to be. Only, at the time, I could look up scripture to show you it was the real church, until after studying the bible even more thoroughly than I had already done. I’ve been through the Old Testament at least 5 to 10 time and the New Testament about 30 or so. I began to see scripture I had never quite understood and asked other teachers opinions to draw nothing but a blank. I noticed how they couldn’t answer many of the questions that the Catholic Church clearly had answers.

My fundamentalist faith simply fell apart at the seams. Discovering the establishment of the canon was quiet impressive, so much that it along with the discovery of the ancient church fathers writing and the catacombs (with drawings on the walls) caused a serious faith crisis, leading to repentance for leaving the Catholic Church. No one ever told me or taught me effectively to convince me it was true. I thought it was all made up.

Going from everything is a serious sin to variation from venial to mortal was a major step too. I wanted to confess every silly thing, but had to realize that some things were simply not serious enough to bring to confession. I was told “I can’t blame you” or “no wonder”. I was fortunate to find initial contact with the Catholic Church through our Franciscan Friars of the Sacred Heart. They’re amazing. Had I come home some years earlier I would have met a priest that defected. The third mass I attended was with the bishop giving an apology for a previous pastor that molested at least 9 children in our parish. I balled like a baby for the abused as I wallowed in my own pain. It was very difficult.

Up until a year ago I was having much difficulty adjusting - nearly drove my pastor to a mental hospital lamenting my condition, position of not having completed the seminary where I felt I belonged. But doors keep leading me to the diaconate. I’m taking it very slowly though because we still have 2 young children that need their daddy. Once they become teenagers I won’t feel so restrained from pursuing it further. I’m just concerned that I may be considered too old by then, 60 or so. I’m 50 now, and our deacons program was limited to age 55, which makes little sense considering that a married deacons should also have young children at that age. My youngest is 6 years old. The next is 10 years old.

I’m not as anxiety prone now confessing, but I like to go often still. I’ve asked what’s mortal or venial in my confessions to receive relief in understanding that they were not more serious contrasted to my belief. It’s been a wonderful eye opener and brings me much peace. I once was afraid of death, but now I feel fine either way, not that I’m going to make it easy for someone or self.

I guess we’re only a few that have been growing in the faith dealing with confession. I wonder how many Catholics take confession for granted or don’t do it at all. Our parish confession lines are amazingly long, longer than I’ve ever seen in my life. Other parishes have very few going to confession, unless they’re coming to our church for confession. We have perpetual adoration (actually 6:00 am to 10 PM, 7 days per week). I believe it helps.