Vent about NFP threads

[maryjk]

You should not put words in other’s mouths. I specifically explained this situation and you are twisting my words for your own purposes.

There is no obligation to engage in marital relations or have children in marriage. Things in marriage and sex must be ordered certain ways, or the couple must be open to having children, etc. This is a fact and it is pointless to argue it.

A couple can decide whether or not they wish to engage in relations or have children. End of story. Obviously almost every couple engages in relations early on. As the couple ages, this is not necessarily true, and I’m actually shocked by the number of married couples that don’t have sex as they age, probably because I’m looking at my own situation. There are many reasons for this that people don’t get simply because they haven’t yet experienced it. The change in hormones as one ages is a huge factor in this, as is the health of the couple.

One of the unintended consequences of the little blue pill was divorce after many years of marriage. Basically men were coming home with Viagra, interested in sex after many years of abstaining. Their wives were not interested and hadn’t been for many years.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Yeah, the only person I was really disagreeing with has now left the conversation.

I was busy today and had to blast out of the office. I can’t say what I was doing, plus I wouldn’t want to because it would be construed as bragging.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Their wives were not interested and hadn’t been for many years.

My wife is currently at that stage of hormonal freakout. We don’t engage in relations as much as we used to (I don’t think anyone could, or should, keep up at that level…lol). But as the eastern saying goes, the only permanent thing in life is change. So we adapted and found our balance.

 

[thewanderer]

I was busy today and had to blast out of the office. I can’t say what I was doing, plus I wouldn’t want to because it would be construed as bragging.

Thats ok, I think I just took your agreement with buckets post about beating a dead horse to mean you were done with the conversation. I didn’t assume that just because you went a few hours without responding you must have abandoned the thread.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I have to get this off my chest. It seems like whenever someone posts about how they are using NFP to avoid pregnancy, a bunch of people pile on about how their reasons for avoiding aren’t good enough. I see it on this forum and all over the Catholic blogosphere.

Enough!! “Serious reasons” are for the couple to determine. No one else. If the couple says their reasons are serious, then their reasons are serious. Period. It is impossible to use NFP with a “contraceptive mentality.” If the couple had a contraceptive mentality, they would be using contraception. No one goes through the hassle of charting and abstaining when the woman most wants to have sex for a trivial reason.

Mark Shea had a great article on this awhile back. His theory is that people who tell other people their reasons aren’t good enough are too cowardly to attack people who are actually disobeying Church teaching by using contraception, so they attack people who are obeying Church teaching by using NFP and telling them that their reasons aren’t good enough. Here’s the article:

ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/on-coping-with-nfp-zealotry

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

That said, I think the conversations usually come up here when people ask if something is serious. I mean, bringing up NFP and your reasons, is likely to bring up that kind of discussion. I wouldn’t answer that sort of question unless I was specifically asked (and then it would be in terms of “for us… that would or wouldn’t be serious…”). No one is forced into discussing NFP online. If we don’t want our reasons picked at, we probably shouldn’t put them out there for other people to discuss. If we’re worried that they should “just be between me and my spouse” than maybe sharing them isn’t the best idea.

 

[mtbender]

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

That said, I think the conversations usually come up here when people ask if something is serious. I mean, bringing up NFP and your reasons, is likely to bring up that kind of discussion. I wouldn’t answer that sort of question unless I was specifically asked (and then it would be in terms of “for us… that would or wouldn’t be serious…”). No one is forced into discussing NFP online. If we don’t want our reasons picked at, we probably shouldn’t put them out there for other people to discuss. If we’re worried that they should “just be between me and my spouse” than maybe sharing them isn’t the best idea.

 

[mtbender]

If it were impossible to practice NFP for selfish reasons; why would the Church specifically mention it?

It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood.

• CCC 2368

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I thought I’d post a couple of passages from Germain Grisez. He is a theologian who participated in the preparation of Humanae Vitae. He’s a very well respected theologian.

b) Procreative responsibility calls for conscientious judgment. Except for those who know they are sterile, the vocation to the gift of life included in the vocation to marriage has direct practical implications. Every fertile Christian married couple should have children unless some extraordinary responsibility forbids their doing so. Yet in this matter, as in any other, vocations differ; different couples have different responsibilities with regard to how many children to have and when to have them. But each has definite moral responsibilities in this area, for, as Paul VI teaches, spouses
are not free to do as they like in the service of transmitting life, on the supposition that it is lawful for them to decide independently of other considerations what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator.221

Therefore, questions of procreative responsibility call for a couple’s conscientious reflection, in which they should take into account everything that might in any way be relevant: their physical, psychological, economic, and social conditions; the good of their present and future children; the needs of their extended families, of society as a whole, and of the Church.222
Nobody else can make this judgment for them: “With docile reverence toward God, they will form for themselves a right judgment by mutual agreement and working together” (GS 50). It must be made by mutual agreement, because carrying it out will require that they have intercourse at certain times and abstain at others, and in these matters neither spouse can make unilateral judgments without violating the other’s marital rights. They must make the judgment “with docile reverence toward God,” keeping in mind his plan and will for them, and their responsibility to provide members for his family.

h) The practice of abstinence to regulate births involves chastity. Abstinence is not always easy even for couples who correctly understand marital intercourse and the appropriateness of sexual abstinence to regulate births. Sometimes even for them, and more often for those without their insight, abstinence seems to have bad consequences. Vatican II notes this fact: “Where the intimacy of married life is broken off, its faithfulness often can be imperiled and its quality of fruitfulness undermined, for then the upbringing of the children and the courage to accept new ones are both endangered” (GS 51). Thus, the Council Fathers make it clear that they have paid attention to the evidence that in many cases, when sexual abstinence is prolonged, a husband and a wife become irritable with each other and express their feelings by treating the children badly; they may be tempted to commit adultery, at least in thought; their love cools, and they are unlikely to welcome another child.

i) Periodic abstinence contributes to conjugal love. Many couples who, judging that they should not have another baby, abstain for ten to twenty or more days each cycle bear witness to the benefits periodic abstinence has for their marital relationship. The explanation is that this practice not only calls for chastity but fosters it, by integrating the sexual urge with the good of marriage, and so making marital intercourse a more genuine act of mutual love, with a deeper and more lasting satisfaction. The self-discipline necessary to foster chastity, Paul VI teaches,
brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children.231

When he references GS he’s referring to Gaudium and Spes…

I thought these passages might help clear up the various confusions being expressed throughout the thread.

The work is called The Way of the Lord Jesus. I find it helpful, and comforting.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

One of the unintended consequences of the little blue pill was divorce after many years of marriage. Basically men were coming home with Viagra, interested in sex after many years of abstaining. Their wives were not interested and hadn’t been for many years.

It’s not only in a lack of interest. The body ages not only on the outside and a 4 hour erection is a weapon against the woman’s body, not an instrument of pleasure. One can desire one’s spouse but not a caricature of previous sexual abilities.

P.S. I think this whole thread should be pointed to as an example of a charitable discussion. Very well done to everyone who has participated! No one got their knickers in a twist, no one got banned, or suspended, and the reasoning was as clear as glass. Great to read!

(Maybe it’s because I didn’t participate?? )

 

[JackieMom]

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

That said, I think the conversations usually come up here when people ask if something is serious. I mean, bringing up NFP and your reasons, is likely to bring up that kind of discussion. I wouldn’t answer that sort of question unless I was specifically asked (and then it would be in terms of “for us… that would or wouldn’t be serious…”). No one is forced into discussing NFP online. If we don’t want our reasons picked at, we probably shouldn’t put them out there for other people to discuss. If we’re worried that they should “just be between me and my spouse” than maybe sharing them isn’t the best idea.

And see, I think that planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip with a new husband is an absolutely valid reason to use NFP for a while (maybe not for 7 years in a “someday… when we save enough” way, but in the “this is booked in four months and I don’t want to be miserable, vomiting and without OB care in Cairo” way.). I do not think we are obligated to postpone all big trips and events for 25 years because we are always pregnant or nursing a baby or have too many kids to go I don’t think most priests would laugh at wanting to go on a trip and postponing pregnancy for a little bit to accommodate it. I once talked to my priest about using NFP for five months so that I would be able to travel to my sister’s wedding and enjoy it (I get severe morning sickness for the first half of my pregnancies) and he completely understood. I got pregnant while on that trip.

Maybe because I’ve been married 14 years and am about to have baby 5, I see things differently. But it just goes to show you how wise it is that The Church, in Her wisdom, has left it to couples to discern the seriousness of their reasons for delaying pregnancies. I see making amazing memories with one’s husband and seeing the world with him before “life” makes it impossible as unselfish. If the point of the trip was to brag to friends, buy souvenirs, and be lazy for a month - then maybe that would be selfish. Ultimately each couple needs to discern their motivations and make peace with their choices. Personally, I am glad that God gives me the option of giving my body, my marriage and my family a break from the stress and burden of continual pregnancies. I’m getting old And I’d kind of love to finally take a trip alone with my spouse!

 

[Lorelei12]

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

I’m with JackieMom- I don’t see a trip with your husband (to be taken in the near future) as inherently selfish. Attempting to avoid conception for a few months so that you can take a break from your jobs and relax together, especially if it’s before the kids come, isn’t necessarily “trivial”. In fact, my husband and I are taking a trip soon because we know that it’s our “last hurrah” for awhile, if we are blessed with children. If I get pregnant before then, well, that’s what cancellation insurance is for, but I do see it as something important, that I have wanted to do for a long time, and that we likely won’t have the chance to do for a very long time if we don’t do it now.

I think most happily married couples would rather give up a trip than use NFP for any extended period of time, anyway. Which is really what a lot of posters here are saying- most of the time, if you don’t have a good reason, eventually it becomes too difficult and burdensome, and you make a choice about what’s most important. So while I do agree that it’s not entirely out of the question to have selfish motives, I think most of the time if your marriage is healthy it’s a non-issue.

 

[Walking_Home]

RedSoxWife:

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

And see, I think that planning a once-in-a-lifetime trip with a new husband is an absolutely valid reason to use NFP for a while (maybe not for 7 years in a “someday… when we save enough” way, but in the “this is booked in four months and I don’t want to be miserable, vomiting and without OB care in Cairo” way.). I do not think we are obligated to postpone all big trips and events for 25 years because we are always pregnant or nursing a baby or have too many kids to go I don’t think most priests would laugh at wanting to go on a trip and postponing pregnancy for a little bit to accommodate it. I once talked to my priest about using NFP for five months so that I would be able to travel to my sister’s wedding and enjoy it (I get severe morning sickness for the first half of my pregnancies) and he completely understood. I got pregnant while on that trip.

Maybe because I’ve been married 14 years and am about to have baby 5, I see things differently. But it just goes to show you how wise it is that The Church, in Her wisdom, has left it to couples to discern the seriousness of their reasons for delaying pregnancies. I see making amazing memories with one’s husband and seeing the world with him before “life” makes it impossible as unselfish. If the point of the trip was to brag to friends, buy souvenirs, and be lazy for a month - then maybe that would be selfish. Ultimately each couple needs to discern their motivations and make peace with their choices. Personally, I am glad that God gives me the option of giving my body, my marriage and my family a break from the stress and burden of continual pregnancies. I’m getting old And I’d kind of love to finally take a trip alone with my spouse!

---

Ditto.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’m with JackieMom- I don’t see a trip with your husband (to be taken in the near future) as inherently selfish. Attempting to avoid conception for a few months so that you can take a break from your jobs and relax together, especially if it’s before the kids come, isn’t necessarily “trivial”. In fact, my husband and I are taking a trip soon because we know that it’s our “last hurrah” for awhile, if we are blessed with children. If I get pregnant before then, well, that’s what cancellation insurance is for, but I do see it as something important, that I have wanted to do for a long time, and that we likely won’t have the chance to do for a very long time if we don’t do it now.

I think most happily married couples would rather give up a trip than use NFP for any extended period of time, anyway. Which is really what a lot of posters here are saying- most of the time, if you don’t have a good reason, eventually it becomes too difficult and burdensome, and you make a choice about what’s most important. So while I do agree that it’s not entirely out of the question to have selfish motives, I think most of the time if your marriage is healthy it’s a non-issue.

Still, I’ve heard many other people say the same thing. They get well into or past their child-bearing years, and they ask themselves out loud, “why weren’t we open more of the time?” People do sometimes look back and say, “For us, that was not serious. Our discernment could have been better, even with what we knew at the time.” It is not to say “this isn’t a serious reason for anyone” but rather, “be careful, because you can live to wish you had spent more of your life trying for children. Your childbearing years don’t last forever.” This is something you also hear from couples with fertility problems–they wish they had been open earlier, and had not simply presumed they could get pregnant whenever they wanted. Of course, other couples with smaller families than they would have liked never used NFP at all, it is not as if that gives any guarantees, either, but earlier years of marriage often give the best window for fertility.

It is wise to take pastoral advice under serious consideration, I think that is what she was saying. That is not the same as saying that as-yet-childless couples should never discern that it would be wise to put a space in even before the birth of their eldest.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I don’t know about other people, but I personally do know that it is possible to use NFP for trivial reasons, because I used it for trivial reasons when I first found out about the Churches teaching on contraception. Of course, did I think the reasons were trivial at the time? Nope. Were they. Yup. My husband and I had been planning a big trip around the world and had been saving up for it and this vacation was in my mind, most definitely a serious reason. My priest basically laughed when he heard this, but I couldn’t convinced otherwise. So is it possible to avoid for non-serious reasons? I did. So I’d go with yes.

That said, I think the conversations usually come up here when people ask if something is serious. I mean, bringing up NFP and your reasons, is likely to bring up that kind of discussion. I wouldn’t answer that sort of question unless I was specifically asked (and then it would be in terms of “for us… that would or wouldn’t be serious…”). No one is forced into discussing NFP online. If we don’t want our reasons picked at, we probably shouldn’t put them out there for other people to discuss. If we’re worried that they should “just be between me and my spouse” than maybe sharing them isn’t the best idea.

IMHO, it is extremely difficult to determine what a serious reason is. It appears the Church doesn’t really no either, hence the references to “conscientious reflection” or something similar. I can even foresee instances of couples simply refusing to have children under any circumstances for no apparent reason as being legitimate. How? Simple; while most of us are not aware of it, human bodies can send signals to each other various ways, such as pheromones. If the bodies are sending messages to each other that they may be incompatible in some way, that may manifest itself by the couple desiring not to have a child, but yet they may not understand why. This is simply the couples response to God’s design.

This isn’t some far flung idea either; the scientific studies associated with this are fascinating. Also important to note is that our modern lifestyle can interfere with the “proper” selection of our partners, especially when one is taking hormones (BCPs, etc.).