Venting about watching my church break communion with Rome

[TheRealJuliane]

Well considering I’m a woman, I can’t become a priest myself. . . but then again, that’s exactly what my priest wants . . . he’s preached a few times about the “inequalities” between the sexes in our Church and says women are excluded.

As for your doubt that he actually did what I said . . . I didn’t post on here to make a legal case with evidence. Being an anonymous forum, I posted on here for advice so it would be pointless to lie about this. Also, the week after he first added “mother” to the Creed, he prefaced the Creed by saying that we should do what we’re comfortable with but that he would be adding “mother” to every reference to “Father” because, in his words, God is our Father, mother, brother and friend.

**As for being thankful to have a priest. I pray for my priest daily and I pray for vocations, etc. I can’t be thankful if the person giving me Communion believes the Holy Sacrifice of my Lord’s Body and Blood are equal to a meal at a pub - - read my original post!
**

Thanks, TheRealJuliane.

This is so awful! I would cry if I heard any priest say such a horrible thing! Comparing the Lord’s Body and Blood to a plate of fish and chips or soggy pizza! How could he profane the Lord like that? It’s a wonder that he wasn’t struck dead on the spot! More proof of God’s tender mercies…

Of all that is discussed about liturgical abuse, this has to be one of the worst cases. Statements like that out of a priest’s mouth are akin to blasphemy and can do untold damage to the congregation, without a lot of them even realizing it.

 

[Zosimus41]

Hi, I just wanted to vent because I’ve been watching things unfold at my church since a new priest arrived and now I am going to have to quit my local parish church. I’m heart broken over it. This is the church where I became a Catholic at the Easter Vigil a couple of years ago. It’s the church where I used to pray in front of the Tabernacle while I waited to become Catholic because I longed for Communion.

Long story short, it started with the new priest rarely wearing the chasuble and using gender-neutral language (ie. referring to God as “God” instead of “He”). I tried to be patient and put up with this because I didn’t want to be critical. But then the priest started ad libbing to the prayers from the Missal. He started adding “other denominations” after praying for the Pope, Bishop, etc. during the prayers at the altar. Recently, he started saying “Father and Mother” at every reference to “Father” in the Creed. Plus, everything is always a big joke. I brought my Protestant father to Good Friday with me and I was embarassed. The priest made jokes multiple times in the Good Friday service! Plus at Easter, he said the Church was excluding women. I was planning to leave over the “Father and Mother” Creed stuff but as if that wasn’t enough, I’m wondering if the Mass was valid yesterday . . . in the homily, he compared Communion with the presence of Christ to going to the nearby pub where sharing a table there is also sacred.

Anyway, I suppoed this isn’t shocking to most because you’ve probably experienced this kind of stuff occasionally but for me, I’m so sad because I left Protestantism because the one true Church is also the one Church that actual has rules and order and while I knew that some priests might have lightweight or left wing homilies, I didn’t expect them to be so bold like mine is being.

If you have a cathedral near by you can try going to mass there it tends to be more in line with the rubrics.

I started going to Latin mass it gives me peace and sets my mind at ease.

No one sings loud in you ear, The parisheners dont make a show of themselves, noone tries to hold hands with you,Theres no loud instruments,They dont clap for the choir. And I have yet to hear the preist take lightly of anything. Its a very peaceful respectful mass

 

[sw85]

legaleagle,

Whatever the poo-pooers say, you have a right as a Catholic to have mass said according to the rubrics. No priest has any right to change that. I also think it’s appropriate to worry about possibly signs of heterodoxy in your priest. One of the required for a valid Eucharistic consecration is that the priest intend to do what the Church does; where there is not total orthodoxy there is at least some cause to worry.

I would advise you to speak with the priest before going to the bishop, if only so that he cannot claim to be surprised, and also so that you can demonstrate your good faith to the bishop if it is necessary to go to him. If you are worried about doing this, see if you can find a few other parishioners who share your concerns and then approach the priest (and later bishop) directly. Fr. Z. recommends this. It is harder for a bishop to disregard a letter from several parishioners vs. just one.

 

[revert_jen]

revert_jen;9270263:

It is insulting to orthodox liberals to equate heresy with liberalism. Unless you are just saying you don’t believe the OP, it’s clearly not just liberalism that is going on. Someone who refuses to say the Creed unaltered has a serious problem.

I thought I might inquire as to who would qualify as an “orthodox liberal”. It was my understanding that orthodoxy was much the same as Margaret Thatcher’s view on crime:

“Crime is crime is crime, it is not political, it is crime… there can be no questioning of whether a criminal’s status is political”

“Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy is Orthodoxy, it is not political, it is Orthodoxy… there can be no use of political labels to describe those who are Orthodox”

That was my understanding. Am I not correct?

Of course orthodoxy is orthodoxy. But people can be orthodox and of a liberal bent, or orthodox and of a conservative bent. Or heretical and of a liberal bent, or heretical and of a conservative bent.

I was responding to someone who sounded like he was equating liberalism with heresy, which isn’t right. I felt comfortable doing it because it didn’t really apply to me personally. The only time since I returned to the Church that anyone has considered me liberal was once when I visited Texas–and that was political rather than liturgical. (Actually, it was rather refreshing, not being the horrible reactionary for once. )

–Jen

 

[sw85]

It is insulting to orthodox liberals to equate heresy with liberalism.

If you mean that not all heresies are liberal, that’s true. But are you saying that not all (Catholic) liberals are heretics?

I am curious what a liberalism that could be reconciled with Catholicism would look like. I cannot imagine it for the life of me.

 

[revert_jen]

No one sings loud in you ear, The parisheners dont make a show of themselves, noone tries to hold hands with you,Theres no loud instruments,They dont clap for the choir. And I have yet to hear the preist take lightly of anything. Its a very peaceful respectful mass

Ooooo, I hate that. It is so embarrassing when you are in the choir and people clap. In your head you’re like, “That’s so sweet of you, but I really wish you wouldn’t. I don’t want to encourage you to do it again, but I also don’t want to insult you or make you sad. I don’t know what to do! AARGH!!!” So in the end, you just smile and look awkward. Again.

Besides, I’m a bit shy and the more people treat the choir as if we’re putting on a performance, the more nervous I get and the worse I sing.

Sorry for the small digression…

–Jen

 

[thewanderer]

If you mean that not all heresies are liberal, that’s true. But are you saying that not all (Catholic) liberals are heretics?

I am curious what a liberalism that could be reconciled with Catholicism would look like. I cannot imagine it for the life of me.

Are you really trying to get into a political debate on the liturgy forum?? If you want to conitnue this conversation it might be wise to take it elsewhere.

 

[sw85]

Are you really trying to get into a political debate on the liturgy forum?? If you want to conitnue this conversation it might be wise to take it elsewhere.

No need to get so touchy. I’m just inquiring what revert_jen meant.

 

[TimothyH]

We are all called to be aware of abuses of the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist. It is not “chronic complaining” to let the Bishop know of these abuses. We should not sit back and “be grateful” for anything at all.

Not grateful for anything? Yikes. You may want to rethink that last sentance.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

I agree, we should all be more aware of the needs of our neighbors. However, we can hopefully do both - be concerned about the integrity and orthodoxy or the Mass, and our neighbors needs. No where does the Church say that the corporal and spiritual works of mercy are mutually exclusive.

Christ makes it crystal clear in the Gospels that he knows we love him not by how we worship, but by how we treat other people. The Gospels are absolutely crystal clear on that fact.

Christ goes even further, stating that we are to “Leave our gift on the altar” if we realize that we have treated anyone poorly, that we are to go make it right first, and only then will our worship be acceptable to God.

Worship is our minimum obligation. Our spiritual works are of no value to God in the absence of corporal works. If your brother has no food and no coat and you have food and two coats and you don’t share your food and give him one of your coats then your worship is an abomination to God. Faith without works is dead.

-Tim-

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Of course orthodoxy is orthodoxy. But people can be orthodox and of a liberal bent, or orthodox and of a conservative bent. Or heretical and of a liberal bent, or heretical and of a conservative bent.

I was responding to someone who sounded like he was equating liberalism with heresy, which isn’t right. I felt comfortable doing it because it didn’t really apply to me personally. The only time since I returned to the Church that anyone has considered me liberal was once when I visited Texas–and that was political rather than liturgical. (Actually, it was rather refreshing, not being the horrible reactionary for once. )

–Jen

Well very well. I just object to language which makes religion sound political.

For instance, the more times we call ourselves “conservative Catholics” rather than just Catholics… or perhaps Orthodox Catholics… the more people out there are going to think “Gee… I hope we elect a more liberal minded Pope next time around”.

The Papacy is not the Presidency of the United States. The Office of Bishop is not analogous to the Office of Govenor. And there is a huge miconception out there that this is the case. And all you’d have to do is read ANY story from a secular news agency and they’ll likely use terminology which hints at this conclusion.

So, I’m not saying you’re doing that. But… when looking at politics we need to be careful about calling people “Liberal Catholics”… or even “Orthodox Liberals”. How about “Orthodox Catholics” Jesus Christ calls us all to be Orthodox Catholics. Outside of that who cares?

Lastly… how can you be liberal liturgically? I was AGAIN under the impression that you can only be orthodox or heterodox when it comes to the liturgy. The Church defines what flies and what doesn’t. To me the language Catholics have been using for the past several decades make a lot of non-Catholics in America view our Church leaders in a political light “He’s a conservative Pope, he’s a conservative/ liberal Bishop”.

I’m just trying to shed some light on this not being good for our witness.

 

[thewanderer]

No need to get so touchy. I’m just inquiring what revert_jen meant.

Personally, I don’t mind, but this isn’t my thread. Its just a subject that is too easy to turn into a discussion of its own, so it might merit its own thread, rather then diverting this one.

 

[Apologista]

Wow, thanks for all your answers and comments. I do feel the Bishop needs to know but I’ve been scared to do anything yet because I thought I’d need to speak with the priest first and that terrifies me. One of my friends wrote him a letter a couple of weeks ago and he received no reply. Another friend went to speak with him and he had an answer for everything she brought up. So, I’m dreading the idea of making an appointment with him. The Bishop is going to be in town next week . . .

I saddens me to see this happening before my eyes . . . and it started out very subtly.

God bless you and thanks for your prayers for my priest and my parish.

Praying for you - it can be such a grief to lose a parish in whatever way - but maybe you can be the prophet God sends. A prophet is never welcome in his/her own country, as Our Lord pointed out! :sad_yes: Be strong, speak the truth in love, and pray to God to enlighten this priest’s mind.

As an aside - I’ve been wondering if I misuse the word “liberal” sometimes when I might be meaning “progressive” which in the Church context can refer those who think the Church is so behind the times and they know what it needs to “fix” it. The word “heterodoxy” might be even closer to the correct word I’m looking for.

 

[revert_jen]

Well very well. I just object to language which makes religion sound political.

For instance, the more times we call ourselves “conservative Catholics” rather than just Catholics… or perhaps Orthodox Catholics… the more people out there are going to think “Gee… I hope we elect a more liberal minded Pope next time around”.

Actually, I don’t believe that I did call myself a conservative Catholic. Usually I refer to myself as a “serious Catholic” when I’m talking to actual live people.

But even if I did, there isn’t anything inherently wrong with calling myself a conservative Catholic, except that it’s inexact. I could mean that I am conservative liturgically (see below) or that I am a Catholic who also happens to be conservative politically. Calling myself a “female Virginian” doesn’t make state residency related to gender. In the same way, calling myself a conservative Catholic wouldn’t make Catholicism a political issue.

The Papacy is not the Presidency of the United States. The Office of Bishop is not analogous to the Office of Govenor. And there is a huge miconception out there that this is the case. And all you’d have to do is read ANY story from a secular news agency and they’ll likely use terminology which hints at this conclusion.

So, I’m not saying you’re doing that. But… when looking at politics we need to be careful about calling people “Liberal Catholics”… or even “Orthodox Liberals”. How about “Orthodox Catholics” Jesus Christ calls us all to be Orthodox Catholics. Outside of that who cares?

I’m glad you’re not saying I’m doing that, because as I said before, I was just trying to stop the apparent equating of “liberal” with “heretical.”

Lastly… how can you be liberal liturgically? I was AGAIN under the impression that you can only be orthodox or heterodox when it comes to the liturgy. The Church defines what flies and what doesn’t. To me the language Catholics have been using for the past several decades make a lot of non-Catholics in America view our Church leaders in a political light “He’s a conservative Pope, he’s a conservative/ liberal Bishop”.

Well, I think you could be considered liberal liturgically (while remaining orthodox) depending on which optional practices you liked, like CITH or using modern hymns. You could also be considered conservative liturgically (while remaining orthodox) depending on which optional practices you liked, like incense or chant.

Quite possibly you are right, and the language people use about the Church sounds political. That is unfortunate. But the correct answer can’t be either to assert that all orthodox Catholics are the same or that differences within orthodoxy don’t matter. Just because something isn’t sinful doesn’t mean it’s unimportant.

Not that this has anything to do with the point of this thread. The behavior the OP described was nowhere near orthodoxy as far as I can tell. The reason it matters is that departing from the teachings of the Church in this way implicitly teaches lies about God. It certainly teaches lies about Christ’s bride, the Church. It teaches Mass-going Catholics that they can pick and choose from what the Church teaches. If they learn this lesson well enough, they may fall into serious sin. That is why it is important that the OP contact someone who can put a stop to it.

–Jen

 

[Jegudiel]

Well very well. I just object to language which makes religion sound political.

For instance, the more times we call ourselves “conservative Catholics” rather than just Catholics… or perhaps Orthodox Catholics… the more people out there are going to think “Gee… I hope we elect a more liberal minded Pope next time around”.

The Papacy is not the Presidency of the United States. The Office of Bishop is not analogous to the Office of Govenor. And there is a huge miconception out there that this is the case. And all you’d have to do is read ANY story from a secular news agency and they’ll likely use terminology which hints at this conclusion.

So, I’m not saying you’re doing that. But… when looking at politics we need to be careful about calling people “Liberal Catholics”… or even “Orthodox Liberals”. How about “Orthodox Catholics” Jesus Christ calls us all to be Orthodox Catholics. Outside of that who cares?

Lastly… how can you be liberal liturgically? I was AGAIN under the impression that you can only be orthodox or heterodox when it comes to the liturgy. The Church defines what flies and what doesn’t. To me the language Catholics have been using for the past several decades make a lot of non-Catholics in America view our Church leaders in a political light “He’s a conservative Pope, he’s a conservative/ liberal Bishop”.

I’m just trying to shed some light on this not being good for our witness.

Thank you for your comments. I really appreciate them. I think far too many self-described “traditionalists” have created this mythical beast they call “liberals” to blame all the faults in the Church and it gets a little nauseating after a while.

They don’t stop to ponder if something is truly unorthodox or is it simply does not meet their personal preferences. Instead they blame the mystical “liberals” beast.

It can be very confusing to apply political terms to religion. The Catholic Church’s history and tradition is most certainly “liberal” from a political sense, particularly when it comes to social justice.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Not grateful for anything? Yikes. You may want to rethink that last sentance.

-Tim-

That’s not what I meant. The poster I was addressing was implying that the OP should be grateful she has any priest at all, even a priest in heresy. I meant, “we should not be grateful for things that are WRONG.” I just said it awkwardly.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Christ makes it crystal clear in the Gospels that he knows we love him not by how we worship, but by how we treat other people. The Gospels are absolutely crystal clear on that fact.

Christ goes even further, stating that we are to “Leave our gift on the altar” if we realize that we have treated anyone poorly, that we are to go make it right first, and only then will our worship be acceptable to God.

Worship is our minimum obligation. Our spiritual works are of no value to God in the absence of corporal works. If your brother has no food and no coat and you have food and two coats and you don’t share your food and give him one of your coats then your worship is an abomination to God. Faith without works is dead.

-Tim-

My point was not that we should focus on worship to the exclusion of works of mercy. Rather the reverse - that we can be concerned about orthodoxy worship without neglecting our works of mercy.

 

[mlz]

I feel for you and hope you would not be the only person contacting the bishop. But in my experience, a priest such as you describe is generally seen as a great guy who gives great homilies by most of the parish.

I’ve seen that in my own parish, where Fr. Never-genuflect who gives his homilies from “Chicken Soup for the Soul” and won’t sit in the confessional or schedule regular confession time and cracks jokes during the Consecration is thought to be a wonderful priest by all but a handful. I was there when the Bishop complained about what he was using as an altar cloth (a multicoloured cloth that the bishop compared to ‘an old headscarf’) and heard him reply, “I know you don’t like it but I do and I’m not changing it.”

Oh my, I see a lack of respect and a lack of respect for authority, such a work of the evil one in our day.(think now, why was Satan cast down from heaven…lack of respect for God’s authority…wanting to be “like God”…hmmm, sound familiar?!) Please be aware of this as we will all be confronted with it if we haven’t already. Prayer dear faithful, prayer is needed.

mlz

 

[legaleagle]

This is so awful! I would cry if I heard any priest say such a horrible thing! Comparing the Lord’s Body and Blood to a plate of fish and chips or soggy pizza! How could he profane the Lord like that? It’s a wonder that he wasn’t struck dead on the spot! More proof of God’s tender mercies…

Of all that is discussed about liturgical abuse, this has to be one of the worst cases. Statements like that out of a priest’s mouth are akin to blasphemy and can do untold damage to the congregation, without a lot of them even realizing it.

I know, I’ve been sad, mad, just so upset by it since Sunday. As a Protestant, I never attended a church this bad!

 

[mlz]

Never be surprised when we are at battle with the evil one, this is more real than you can imagine, especially today. I listened to a CD where the priest was discussing a vision someone had where he saw the demons around the churches and religious communities and not around the areas of sin and wondered, " God why are there demons there?" The answer was that the evil one already HAS those in his influence and is now trying to take over places where he doesn’t yet have influence. So, your parish, my parish, they are both places the evil one wants to take over and influence. Prayer is so vital, most people feel this is a small thing…something you do when you can’t do anything else, but NO, NO, NO it is VITAL and REAL. Yes, talk to your Bishop but if others share your concern, band together before the Blessed Sacrament and pray, pray, pray! I also will pray for you as this will be defeated through prayer- Praise God!

mlz