Verbal Etiquette question here: c'mon down teachers, professors, et all!

[KCtheMommy]

I insist my children call all adults by their “proper” name: Mr. Surname, Mrs. Surname, Ms. Surname, Miss Surname.

No Miss Julie, Miss Jennifer, etc. Certainly no first names.

I’ve run into a problem with our social life and circle of friends. Since I do a lot of lactivist and birth right’s work, plus attend a secular playgroup, I spend a lot of time with liberal, married women who retained their maiden name. One even has a hyphenated name, but it does not contain her husband’s last name. :ehh:

So on that note, I was out blueberry picking with one of the maiden namers, and we got to pondering this little blip on the etiquette radar. Actually she corrected me when I told my kid’s to refer to her as Mrs. Johnson (name changed to protect the innocent) and said “No it would be Ms. Johnson.”
Me: “BUT you are married therefor you are a Mrs. yes?”

She says: “Yes, but I am not married to my dad. So therefor I am Ms. Johnson.”

I say: “OK, but my kid’s know to refer to married women as Mrs.”

So what say you: how do we refer to married women who retained their maiden name? Mrs. or Ms.?

 

[reganq]

Good question. I am going to have to watch this threat to see what the answer is. Thank goodness I am not one of those liberal-minded folk.

Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer. Only questions which would derail your thread. So, I shall refrain from asking them.

 

[1ke]

Well, two etiquette sites (Crane’s and Emily Post) I checked stated that a married woman who retains her maiden name be addressed as:

Ms. Carol Johnson or Ms. Johnson

In general, I would use the one etiquette suggests.

But, regarding young children I would teach them to use “Mrs.” because small children don’t get the distinction nor should they have to. Your friend can get over it.

 

[Belle10]

Well, two etiquette sites (Crane’s and Emily Post) I checked stated that a married woman who retains her maiden name be addressed as:

Ms. Carol Johnson or Ms. Johnson

In general, I would use the one etiquette suggests.

But, regarding young children I would teach them to use “Mrs.” because small children don’t get the distinction nor should they have to. Your friend can get over it.

Ditto!

 

[AngelRose81]

I have always heard and been taught that if ever in doubt, to always use “Ms.” for a lady. I was taught that this can refer to either a “Miss” or a “Mrs.”

 

[KCtheMommy]

But, regarding young children I would teach them to use “Mrs.” because small children don’t get the distinction nor should they have to. Your friend can get over it.

That’s pretty much how I ended the conversation. :tiphat:

 

[KCtheMommy]

Good question. I am going to have to watch this threat to see what the answer is. Thank goodness I am not one of those liberal-minded folk.

Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer. Only questions which would derail your thread. So, I shall refrain from asking them.

Well I think we answered the original question – so go ahead – derail away!

 

[KCtheMommy]

I have always heard and been taught that if ever in doubt, to always use “Ms.” for a lady. I was taught that this can refer to either a “Miss” or a “Mrs.”

Thanks – I like the advice, so I am going to use it. For now – the people whom they know are married – will be going by Mrs.

 

[mercygate]

I insist my children call all adults by their “proper” name: Mr. Surname, Mrs. Surname, Ms. Surname, Miss Surname.

No Miss Julie, Miss Jennifer, etc. Certainly no first names.

I’ve run into a problem with our social life and circle of friends. Since I do a lot of lactivist and birth right’s work, plus attend a secular playgroup, I spend a lot of time with liberal, married women who retained their maiden name. One even has a hyphenated name, but it does not contain her husband’s last name. :ehh:

So on that note, I was out blueberry picking with one of the maiden namers, and we got to pondering this little blip on the etiquette radar. Actually she corrected me when I told my kid’s to refer to her as Mrs. Johnson (name changed to protect the innocent) and said “No it would be Ms. Johnson.”
Me: “BUT you are married therefor you are a Mrs. yes?”

She says: “Yes, but I am not married to my dad. So therefor I am Ms. Johnson.”

I say: “OK, but my kid’s know to refer to married women as Mrs.”

So what say you: how do we refer to married women who retained their maiden name? Mrs. or Ms.?

Congratulations that they are using the honorific at all.

I say, call her by whatever she prefers – Ms or Mrs. **JOHNSON. **If she says she prefers being called “Miss Julie” ask her if would mind if your children called her “Ms. Johnson” since everywhere else they go, they refer to adults as “Mr. Jones” and “Mrs/Ms Smith”.

I’m staying tuned. A lot of “younger” people are excruciatingly uncomfortable with anything that smacks of formality.

So do your kids call their priest, “Father Billy?” LOL

 

[Sabda]

I always taught that Mrs. referred to married and widowed women.

Miss referred to girls and unmarried woman.

Ms. generally referred to unknowns.

Since you KNOW your friend and that she IS married I would say she is a Mrs. If she doesn’t want to be a Mrs. than why did she get married in the first place?

 

[lizaanne]

Well, two etiquette sites (Crane’s and Emily Post) I checked stated that a married woman who retains her maiden name be addressed as:

Ms. Carol Johnson or Ms. Johnson

In general, I would use the one etiquette suggests.

I agree completely.

But, regarding young children I would teach them to use “Mrs.” because small children don’t get the distinction nor should they have to. Your friend can get over it.

However, this would not be correct.

If she is married to Mr. Jones, but kept her name of Smith, to call her Mrs. Jones would not be correct, nor would Mrs. Smith.

Her name is NOT Mrs. Jones because she does not call herself this, legally or otherwise.

Her name is NOT Mrs. Smith because that would indicate she is married to a man with the last name of Smith, which is not correct.

Sadly - in this situation, she must be addressed as Ms. Like it or not. The other options are not accurate, no matter how much we might like to refer to her as Mrs. Lastname, it is not possible given the choice she has made.

~Liza

 

[jmcrae]

I would have the kids call her “Mrs. [husband’s last name]” or else “Miss [her first name]” but never “Mrs. [Dad’s last name]” or “Ms.” anything at all.

 

[Michelle_Baum]

So what say you: how do we refer to married women who retained their maiden name? Mrs. or Ms.?

I guess, technically, Ms. makes more sense.

In the end, though, I think that we should call people what they want to be called. I’m assuming that if she told her child to call you Ms. Lastname, because that’s what they prefer to use for adult women, you wouldn’t be pleased.

Too, I don’t think it’s that confusing for a kid. You just say, this lady wants to be called Ms. Johnson. And the kiddo says, “Oh, okay.” I think that is perfectly in keeping with teaching a child to be respectful of adults.

Michelle

 

[BillP]

That’s pretty much how I ended the conversation. :tiphat:

So you position is that you can call people whatever you like, **against their specified wishes **simply because it’s easier to explain to your child?

What kind of lesson does that teach your child?

 

[lizaanne]

I would have the kids call her “Mrs. [husband’s last name]” or else “Miss [her first name]” but never “Mrs. [Dad’s last name]” or “Ms.” anything at all.

But that is NOT her name!!! How can you call anyone by something that is not their name? Where is the etiquette in that?

So you position is that you can call people whatever you like, **against their specified wishes **simply because it’s easier to explain to your child?

What kind of lesson does that teach your child?

Exactly!!!

~Liza

 

[1ke]

IIf she is married to Mr. Jones

Actually, she can also be correctly addressed as Mrs. John Jones. Emiliy Post and Crane’s say so.

 

[dulcissima]

Well, now that the question has been officially answered we can throw in our personal anecdotes and opinions…

When my older kids were little we lived in Maryland, where it was the custom to call women by “Miss” and their first names. I liked being Miss Mary.

Somehow, at the high school I worked at last year I ended up being Ms. G. I didn’t mind that at all. If I run into any of those kids, that’s still what they call me.

I would agree though with the above advice, if one of your friends wants your children to address her in a certain way, I would just let your kids know that is the way that she
wants to be addressed. In all other situations, the rules that you have laid out sound best, KC.

 

[BlestOne]

KC… I had the same problem when mine were young. We ended up with the little ones calling Miss Firstname and when they were old enough we went to Mrs Lastname scenario but we only had one person that used Ms. and I told her I found that offensive because either you are married or you are not there is no third option (it was a Catholic School teacher) the next year she went by Mrs. …

 

[KCtheMommy]

Congratulations that they are using the honorific at all.

I say, call her by whatever she prefers – Ms or Mrs. **JOHNSON. **If she says she prefers being called “Miss Julie” ask her if would mind if your children called her “Ms. Johnson” since everywhere else they go, they refer to adults as “Mr. Jones” and “Mrs/Ms Smith”.

**Well, I don’t ask if they would mind, and if there is trouble or discomfort over it I simply explain that I am in no way, shape, or form trying to make them uncomfortable, but I am raising my children to have respect and manners. Being that raising children requires “following through” I can’t make many exceptions to the rule. This is usually how it goes:

“Eden, Shane, Pip, Dash, this is Mrs. Johnson.”

“Oh no call me Julie, Mrs. Johnson is my mother-in-law, or in case of the maiden namers: my mother.”

“I’m sorry but they can’t call you Julie. I am raising them to be polite and to refer to adults by their proper name. It establishes respect and manners. I feel it’s a great tool for them to have. I’m sorry if you are uncomfortable, but I really need them to do this.” If a person has a really difficult last name, and that person says they can call me “Mr. A” I let that slide, Mr. A is ok on a difficult one. **

I’m staying tuned. A lot of “younger” people are excruciatingly uncomfortable with anything that smacks of formality.

That’s exactly what I am trying to avoid.

What REALLY BOTHERS ME is when said women who argue my rules introduce me as KC. Usually I avoid it by introducing myself as Mrs. Smith BEFORE they get a chance to do so. If a child refers to me as KC I’ll correct them with “I am Mrs. Smith, please call me by my proper name sweetie.” Then they, the mothers do stuff like “give that to KC” or “don’t step on KC’s hand.” I guess that’s their way of getting back at me for making my kids refer to them properly. We are talking about their toddlers though. I won’t respond to other people’s children, outside of family, who call me “KC.” Most kid’s don’t have a problem with it, the one’s who come over and play with my kids, just friends. You would be surprised HOW many children are just fine with politeness, or calling me Mrs. Smith. Nobody has asked them to be polite before. Except maybe at school.

So do your kids call their priest, “Father Billy?” LOL
**Well, my hands are tied on that one. Three of our priests go by Father First-Name, and they spend time at the school, with the kids, etc. Being they are the priests I don’t get to change that one up. Besides Father Jon has a difficult last name, so I just let it lie. **

 

[KCtheMommy]

So you position is that you can call people whatever you like, **against their specified wishes **simply because it’s easier to explain to your child?

What kind of lesson does that teach your child?

It wasn’t a specific wish, it was a conversation on what the etiquette is. I ended it saying my kids have learned to call married women by Mrs. so for now we’ll go that way. If that was just the end of it, I mean the total end of it:

I WOULDN’T BE HERE ASKING THE QUESTION.