Veronica's Veil - True Account?

[Michael_Allen]

Hi RasieMeUp,

I believe that since the name is symbolic (‘true image’) and, perhaps more importantly, is a symbolic name constructed in Latin, it seems most likely that this is a pious tradition rather than a factual account.

It might be worth investigating whether the Coptic Church have a similar tradition. If not then it was *probably *a later innovation.

God bless +

Michael

 

[Nita]

Its not a case of thinking what I want. The FACT is that Veronica’s veil has NEVER been a Church teaching.

It all depends on how restrictively you define church teaching. Altho Veronica is certainly not a Church doctrine or dogma, it is included in one of the Church’s accepted devotions for public and private use. If the way we pray (public prayer as a congregation) is part of what we preach/teach, then…

As regards proof:
The legend has not been proven to be false. In fact with the testing on the veil there seems to be more tangible proof to its validity than there is to its invalidity.
Even though the proposal that the woman’s name would not have been Veronica seems very possible, it is still just conjecture. There is no “proof”.

What is important to note is that believing in Veronica does not contradict or conflict with church doctrinal teaching. If it did, the Church would remove the 6th station and the prayers concerning Veronica from the Stations of the Cross. And certainly the Pope would not be publicly conducting the Stations of the Cross every year in Rome.

 

[Nita]

Hi RasieMeUp,

I believe that since the name is symbolic (‘true image’) and, perhaps more importantly, is a symbolic name constructed in Latin, it seems most likely that this is a pious tradition rather than a factual account.

It might be worth investigating whether the Coptic Church have a similar tradition. If not then it was *probably *a later innovation.

God bless +

Michael

You know, that really doesn’t prove anything. The cultural differences between the east and west started very early on in the Catholic Church. The Coptic Church and other Eastern churches probably have devotions and holy people/saints they honor that the Latin Church doesn’t. But the fact that the Latin Church doesn’t wouldn’t prove that the people were not real.

 

[Memaw]

It all depends on how restrictively you define church teaching. Altho Veronica is certainly not a Church doctrine or dogma, it is included in one of the Church’s accepted devotions for public and private use. If the way we pray (public prayer as a congregation) is part of what we preach/teach, then…

As regards proof:
The legend has not been proven to be false. In fact with the testing on the veil there seems to be more tangible proof to its validity than there is to its invalidity.
Even though the proposal that the woman’s name would not have been Veronica seems very possible, it is still just conjecture. There is no “proof”.

What is important to note is that believing in Veronica does not contradict or conflict with church doctrinal teaching. If it did, the Church would remove the 6th station and the prayers concerning Veronica from the Stations of the Cross. And certainly the Pope would not be publicly conducting the Stations of the Cross every year in Rome./QUOTE:

My sentiments exactly, and you said it sooo nicely. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks Patrick for taking the time to lay out the history of how the Veronica legend came to be. I’m always facsinated by the development of legends and myths.

 

[Memaw]

REPLY:

The Church has been wrong regarding a number of her “Traditions.” If you recall, the famous St. Christopher got the ax.

Has anybody noticed that the name Veronica comes from “vera” and “icon” or true image? That may be a hint regarding its legendary nature!

In case you don’t recall, St. Christopher never “got the ax” as you put it, but he was removed from the Church calender to make room for others. Lots of difference between the two. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Marie5890]

Memaw, I understand what you are saying and why.
I also understand what thistle is say.

The church does not teach that the history of Veronica as depicted in the Station is factually accurate nor Scriptural. It does however allow the private devotion since it does not contradict what is taught by the church.

 

[Michael_Allen]

You know, that really doesn’t prove anything. The cultural differences between the east and west started very early on in the Catholic Church. The Coptic Church and other Eastern churches probably have devotions and holy people/saints they honor that the Latin Church doesn’t. But the fact that the Latin Church doesn’t wouldn’t prove that the people were not real.

Hi Nita,

Well, I wasn’t talking of cultural differences, but rather the ‘facts’ of Holy Week. If the Coptic Church do not recognise Veronica then it seems most likely that the story came from later times and was not part of the original deposit of faith which we would expected to be shared across Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic Churches.

Remember we’re not talking of later saints revered by the different churches here, but we’re talking of someone who was (or wasn’t) present at our Lord’s Passion. One would expect that knowledge to be shred by those who shared the original deposit of faith, I believe.

Does anyone know of the earliest known reference to Veronica?

God bless +

 

[Marie5890]

Does anyone know of the earliest known reference to Veronica?

God bless +

Michael, read Patrick’s deliniation of how the legend came to be. He spells out the historical development very well.

Start off with post #18. in #19 he mentions an 4th century acopraphal account…

 

[Memaw]

Memaw, I understand what you are saying and why.
I also understand what thistle is say.

The church does not teach that the history of Veronica as depicted in the Station is factually accurate nor Scriptural. It does however allow the private devotion since it does not contradict what is taught by the church.

If the Church “allows” a private devotion, you can be sure there is nothing contrary to Catholic belief in it. If the Church promotes it, as it does the Stations of the Cross, even attaches a Plenary Indulgence to it, then it is under the protection of the Holy Spirit to prevent the Church from teaching error as Jesus promised His Church would never do. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890;10975657:

Memaw, I understand what you are saying and why.
I also understand what thistle is say.

The church does not teach that the history of Veronica as depicted in the Station is factually accurate nor Scriptural. It does however allow the private devotion since it does not contradict what is taught by the church.

the Magisterium of the church does not declare it a historical fact, however, and to suggest otherwise is a falsehood.

The church allowing a devotion is not the same as declaring it a spiritual or historical reality.

 

[Memaw]

Memaw;10975963:

the Magisterium of the church does not declare it a historical fact, however, and to suggest otherwise is a falsehood.

The church allowing a devotion is not the same as declaring it a spiritual or historical reality.

I don’t believe I said anything about the Magisterium.

On the other hand if the Church allows a falsehood to go on and on for centuries, that wouldn’t be good either and I don’t believe it would do that.God Bless, Memaw.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890;10975970:

I don’t believe I said anything about the Magisterium.

The Magisterium is** THE** authoritative teaching office of the Church.

She (Magisterium= Church) does not teach that the Veronica story is a historical fact.

To suggest otherwise, is to be in falsehood.

I think where your confusion is is that there is an assumption that if the Church allows a private devotion it means that that private devotion has been declared factually accurate.

That is not true. What it means is that private devotion has not done anything that negates what has been taught by the Church (Magisterium)…

I understand your confusion, however. It’s very common when people dont understand how the Magisterium works. Took me a while of deep study to get it and how the Magisterium works.

 

[Michael_Allen]

Michael, read Patrick’s deliniation of how the legend came to be. He spells out the historical development very well.

Start off with post #18. in #19 he mentions an 4th century acopraphal account…

Tx - that was really good background from Patrick.

 

[Marie5890]

Tx - that was really good background from Patrick.

Patrick did an EXCELLENT job breaking it down. And I appreciate his taking the time. The development of the Veronica story definitately has quit the time frame.

 

[Memaw]

Memaw;10976012:

The Magisterium is** THE**

authoritative teaching office of the Church.

She (Magisterium= Church) does not teach that the Veronica story is a historical fact.

To suggest otherwise, is to be in falsehood.

I think where your confusion is is that there is an assumption that if the Church allows a private devotion it means that that private devotion has been declared factually accurate.

That is not true. What it means is that private devotion has not done anything that negates what has been taught by the Church (Magisterium)…

I understand your confusion, however. It’s very common when people dont understand how the Magisterium works. Took me a while of deep study to get it and how the Magisterium works.

Me thinks your contradicting yourself a bit here. And please don’t judge my ability to understand how the Magisterium works, you know NOTHING about my background!. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Marie5890]

Marie5890;10976023:

Me thinks your contradicting yourself a bit here. And please don’t judge my ability to understand how the Magisterium works, you know NOTHING about my background!. God Bless, Memaw

Just as long as everyone understands and is on the same page that the Magisterium is the authoritative teaching arm of the Church and she has never ever taught that the story of Veronica is a historically accurate account.

The Magisterium has never ever ever taught that. And THAT is historically accurate.

As long as everyone is very clear on that reality.

With that, and taking from your post that you do have an understanding of the Magisterium, then you do know She has never taught that the story of Veronica is a historical fact.

I apologize in my lack of knowledge of YOUR knowlegde of the Magersterium, and how She works, and how She has dealt with the story of Veronica.

Then you know , She has never proclaimed it historically accurate.

 

[Nita]

Hi Nita,

Well, I wasn’t talking of cultural differences, but rather the ‘facts’ of Holy Week. If the Coptic Church do not recognise Veronica then it seems most likely that the story came from later times and was not part of the **original deposit of faith **which we would expected to be shared across Catholic, Orthodox and Coptic Churches.

Remember we’re not talking of later saints revered by the different churches here, but we’re talking of someone who was (or wasn’t) present at our Lord’s Passion. One would expect that knowledge to be shred by those who shared the original deposit of faith, I believe.

God bless +

I never said it was part of the “deposit of faith”; in fact, I specifically said it wasn’t when I said it is not part of the doctrinal teaching of the Church. (See my Post #43)

The deposit of faith refers to what is “contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, (please note the capital “T”) handed on in the Church from the time of the Apostles, from which the Magisterium draws all that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed.” (Definition is the Glossary entry for “Deposit of Faith” in the back of the green bound Catechism of the Catholic Church.) The story about Veronica would fall under tradition with a small “t” and that is something different. The traditions between the East and West can vary from each other.

 

[Nita]

…Then you know , She has never proclaimed it historically accurate.

Neither has the Magisterium ever proclaimed that it is not true/accurate – at least to my knowledge.
If I’m in error, could you please let me know the name of the official document and if possible provide a link to it? Thanks.

 

[Memaw]

Memaw;10976070:

Just as long as everyone understands and is on the same page that the Magisterium is the authoritative teaching arm of the Church

and she has never ever taught that the story of Veronica is a historically accurate account.

The Magisterium has never ever ever taught that. And THAT is historically accurate.

As long as everyone is very clear on that reality.

With that, and taking from your post that you do have an understanding of the Magisterium, then you do know She has never taught that the story of Veronica is a historical fact.

I apologize in my lack of knowledge of YOUR knowlegde of the Magersterium, and how She works, and how She has dealt with the story of Veronica.

Then you know , She has never proclaimed it historically accurate. /QUOTE:

I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. Your attitude would likely discourage one from making the Stations under the pretense they are not approved by the Church, when the Church not only “TEACHES” them but promotes them and has for many years. I do not believe it would do that as the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit to never teach error. God Bless. Memaw