Verses concerning the Immortality of the Soul

[CutlerB]

The Immortality of the Soul is part of Catholic teaching. Many groups attack it, though.

My question has two parts:

1. Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Ezechiel 18:4 are quoted in support of those who deny the doctrine. How does one refute the interpretation of those verses?
2. Which verses in the Bible can a Catholic refer to for the Immortality of the Soul?

Thanks.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

To this I ask where in that passage does it say a soul is not immortal? I’ve heard that passage used to deny that we can pray to saints, but not that a soul isn’t immortal.

Ezekiel 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.

Same thing here. Is it possible that some people take “die” to mean obliterated from existence? Because that is not really the context of the “death” that a mortally sinful soul will incur in Biblical language.

Here’s another passage to look at:

*2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. *

Eternal destruction here refers to the soul damned eternally, incurring a destruction that never ends, so to speak. The parable of the Sheep and Goats spoken by Christ in Matthew 25 describes two destinies for man. The sheep go to eternal life. Of the goats, he says they will be told, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” and that “they will go away into eternal punishment.”

In Mark, he says, “it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mk 9:47-48) You see here in this verse that the worm (a term for the devil, such as the serpent in Genesis or the serpent in revelation) doesn’t “die.” In this context death here would mean an end. In hell, the fire afflicts those without end.

 

[The_Serpent]

“For i know that my redeemer liveth, and in the latter day I shall rise out of the earth. And I shall be clothed again with my skin, and in my flesh I shall see my God.” Job 19:25 - 26

Great statement on the resurrection, existence of the soul.

 

[CutlerB]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

To this I ask where in that passage does it say a soul is not immortal? I’ve heard that passage used to deny that we can pray to saints, but not that a soul isn’t immortal.

It is claimed that since the dead “know nothing”, they are not alive after earthly death, but asleep.

Ezekiel 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins shall die.

Same thing here. Is it possible that some people take “die” to mean obliterated from existence? Because that is not really the context of the “death” that a mortally sinful soul will incur in Biblical language.

That is exactly what is claimed. The soul shall “die”, literally. As for the context in Biblical language: Fo you have some verses that show this context?

 

[SighGuy]

I’m no expert here, but you may want to check in to what the word meant to the author who wrote it.
Try here: biblesuite.com/hebrew/5397.htm

You have to remember, up until perhaps the last few centuries BC, the notion of a soul as we conceive of it wasn’t really abound in Jewish theology. Soul and life were interchangeable, and I really really don’t think that if you read “soul” from an OT book, you ought to be comparing it with “soul” in the modern sense of the word, or how we Christians interpret it.

Again, you need to check with someone more expert than me, but from what I recall of Bible study, OT “soul” is just another equivalent for breath, or life-- the gift from God that brought unliving clay to life. To take away your breath, your soul, or your life, would all mean the same thing. Therefore such a passage as you find in Ezekiel would have absolutely no bearing on the concept of souls that wasn’t developed into Abrahamic religions until much after Ezekiel lived.

Furthermore, let’s not forget that Jesus calls God the God of the living, and rebukes the Sadducees who didn’t believe in resurrection (they only held the Torah to be authoritative iirc), an idea that, again, was not developed until late in OT history (probably around the advent of Hellenism, just a guess). And when Jesus tells the penitent thief he will be with him today in paradise.
Admittedly that in itself is not a testament to immortal souls, but it diminishes the importance of the quote from Ecclesiastes.

And it’s not like these quotes prove anything. There’s also probably one hundred quotes that say God will requite the wicked and uphold the just in life, yet the authors of Ecc, Job, and others clearly knew that this was not the case (as do we!). You can’t pull quotes out of no where without looking at their contexts, who wrote them, why they were written, what time, etc…

 

[MarcoPolo]

That is exactly what is claimed. The soul shall “die”, literally. As for the context in Biblical language: Fo you have some verses that show this context?

Well, the passages that speak of the eternal punishment tell us that the ones referring to a soul “dying” is not an obliteration from existence.

There’s also this verse that distinguishes between temporal death and spiritual death:Rev. 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.