Verses we use to defend Purgatory in question

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Ok first of all, yeah I believe that God the father, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus are all one in the “Godhead”. I don’t use the word trinity for that reason. It is not in the Bible. The term “Godhead” is used in three places in the Bible, Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, and Col 2:9. Rom 1:20 referss to creatiion. Looking back in Genesis we see the Holy Spirit and God the father being used in the first chapter. In Gen. 1:26 the Godhead says “Let us” impling more than one existance. Matt 3:16-17 shows the existance of all three at the same time. so there it is in the Bible.
I am going one part at a time so bear with me.
 
I do not celebrate Easter. It is in one translation of the Bible. Where is Christmas in the Bible, exactly. I don’t celebrate these holidays like Catholics and other denominations do. We were never commanded to celebrate these holidays nor should they bound on us.
I looked into the link the second time, alrighty? There was a lot of scripture. I am afraid though that it is, as 2 Pet. 3:16 says, twisting scriptures to your destruction. Be careful what you do because God will judge you, and everyone else, in the last day.
 
Here is a link that you may find interesting, therefinersfire.org/bible_books.htm
it is a site dealing with what books should be in the Bible. It is written by a Catholic, well former Catholic. I hope day you all write web sites like the one he has.
 
HMarieH, Several things on this topic. First, I often find that non-Catholics reject the idea of Purgatory in that after death there is no more choosing, one either is judge for Heaven or Hell. Often I hear that Purgatory is a second chance place, you go there and if enough people say enough prayers and do good deeds then a person will get out of Purgatory and instead of going to Hell, God will give that second chance and allow the person into heaven. This is not what the Catholic Church teaches. Purgatory is a state in which one, who has died is purified of anything that makes that person imperfect therefore unable to enjoy the full Gloryand Love of God. Now, for a scriptural basis. First, all Catholic Doctrine is rooted in Scripture although at times one cannot find it directly. The Trinity, for example, you may call it “Godhead” however if you look at your own explanation you will not find a direct verse saying the GODHEAD is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We will find passages through out the OT and NT where we encounter the Trinity in action but no where by definition. Now, relying on your own knowledge of Scripture, do we not find passage after passage that only the perfect can enter into the Kingdom of God or that every penny must be accounted for and paid up before we can enter heaven (I know you may say Jesus’ sacrifice did this but why then did Jesus speak of personal retribution of one’s sins?) My final point goes back to the beginning, Purgatory may not be stated directly in the Bible however properly understood, it has a strong Scriptural Basis.
 
Ok, so I don’t understand a lot about Purgatory. If it is so scripturally based than would you please explain, in more depth, what purgatory is and where we find the understanding of these things in the scriptures. As far as I am concerned right now purgatory is just a stretch of the imagination and scriptures.
 
HMarieH, I’m going to ask you to help me with this by using your knowledge of Scripture. Are there passages in the OT and NT which refers to nothing impure entering the Kingdom of God (Heaven)? Further, are there passages in Revelations which state that everyone must pay for their transgression? If so what are they and what do they say? Thanks for your help with this.
Also, remember we are trying to understand the Infinite/eternity so we cannot explain fully just what we reasonablly can.
 
2 Cor 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may recieve the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.” The judgment will judge the things done in the body, both good and bad. The body is left on earth and so how can good come to the judgment, if through now body?
1 Tim 5:24 speaks that sins of other men may be seen before death or be later found out, perhaps in the judgment.
2 Pet 2:3-22 speaks about the judgment. Sinners will not escape. The angels were not spared cast down into Hell to await judgment. 2 Pet 3:7 the souls of the ungodly will be lost in the day of judgment. Jude 15 says that judgment will be executed upon all who are sinners.
Can other people pray for the forgiveness of our sins or that we may be saved for the eternal flames of Hell? Phil 2:12 tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Rom 1:16 says that the word of God is the power to salvation.n 2 Cor 7:10 says that repentace leads to salvation. 1 Thess 5:9 says that we may obtain salvation through Jesus. We may not obtain salvation through the prayers of other men, but through Christ only.
Rev 2:10 says that we must be faithful unto death to recieve the crown of life.
 
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HMarieH:
Ok, so I don’t understand a lot about Purgatory. If it is so scripturally based than would you please explain, in more depth, what purgatory is and where we find the understanding of these things in the scriptures. As far as I am concerned right now purgatory is just a stretch of the imagination and scriptures.
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Here’s a great resource on this topic (it also includes evidence of what the early Christians believed):
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
 
I caqn simplify my argument in Rev 2:10. If we are not faithful until death we will not recieve a crown of life. What is the crown of life? It is also mentioned in James 1:12 as something the Lord promised to those who love Him. John 15:10 says that if we keep Christ’s commandments we will also abide in his love. If we keep God’s commandments we will go to heaven. So the “Crown of Life” is heaven. So be faithful until death and you will go to heaven (don’t be faithful until death and you won’t go to heaven) So even if purgatory were true than it would end in some non-existance, because heaven has already passed you by.
 
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Genesis315:
Here’s a great resource on this topic (it also includes evidence of what the early Christians believed):
scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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True…the Early Church Fathers did write about it so we know it was handed down from the apostles.

Clement of Alexandria - (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

Origen- (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

Abercius- (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

Tertullian- (The Soul 35 [A.D. 210]) (Monogamy 10 [A.D. 213]).

Cyprian - (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem - (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom -(Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 (A.D. 392)
(Homilies on Philippians 3:9-10 [A.D. 402]).

Ambrose of Milan-(Funeral Sermon of Theodosius 36-37 [A.D. 395]).

Augustine- (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]) - (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]) - (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 [A.D. 421]
 
HMarieH, I think your refrence to Rev. 2 is helpful in our discussion. Are there other passages that also refrence the price we must pay for our sins here on earth? As for Rev. being faithful to the Gospel Message is how we will be transformed from the subject of salvation (thanks FR Groppi) to being saved. However, human reason again shows that we are not perfect - our faith will always be lacking, we do not always keep the commandments perfectly. So what becomes of those of us who are faithful try to keep the commandment, try to Love God but whose faith and love are not perfect? What happens to those who die with sins, although not grievious enough to cut us off completely from God’s love? Again Jesus teaches, does he not, that only those who have been perfected will enter into the Kingdom of God?
Again, I’m relying on your knowledge of scriptures to help us out with this. One last thought, you have already given us several useful refrences about final judgement - cannot the time we go before Jesus Christ, Himself, actually be the Purgatory we are talking about, that time of Purification before we enter fully into God’s Kingdom?
 
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dizzy_dave:
I am led to believe these soldiers who died, died in a state of mortal sin, if that’s true there is no forgiveness … Last time I checked you can’t get to purgatory for mortal sins, that is deserving of hell,
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People commit mortal sins all the time, and still avoid eternal damnation What’s necessary is atonement. In this day and age that atonement comes through confession and absolution.

In the age of the Maccabees atonement was granted through the Law and its system of animal sacrifice.
 
We, as humans, often think of one sin as being worse than another. Murder is thought to much worse than lying. It can be seen in the jusitce system also. You can not be executed for stealing, but you may be executed for murdering (in some states). But we should study how God sees sin. Gal 5:19-21 states many sins and says whoever does one of the them with not inherit the kingdom of God. So whether we murder or whether murder, if we remain sinful (unforgiven), until death then we will not inherit the kingdom of God. James 1:14-15 describes the growth pattern of sin. We must keep the whole law, James 2:9-11.
Rev 21:8 says that all sinners have their part in the lake of fire, but is it eternal. Gal. 5:19-21 says that no sinner will inherit eternal life, not in whole or in part. So if we go to death as sinners than also we will go to Hell as sinners and never be able to take part in eternal life.
 
I think Timidity’s point on Atonement is helpful in this discussion on Purgatory however I may be taking his point in a different direction he intended. First, with out atonement for mortal sin there is only damnation, but that is the state the individual free choose. If we are to atone for a mortal sin it must be through the Sacrament of Reconcillation except through extra ordinary means. However, I think it would be of greater value for us, in our discussions about Purgatory, to ask the question, what becomes of a person who dies, is not in the state of mortal sin, yet has completely atoned for all his sins? The person is a sinner, yet has not choosen to reject God’s Love completely? We all must be purified of such as state before we can enter Heaven, No?
 
Can we be purified while we are dead? Heb 10:26, “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,” Also read verse 27 describing what will happen. If we go the grave with sin than there remains no more sacrifice for us. We have already rejected Jesus and his sacrifice.
 
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HMarieH:
I caqn simplify my argument in Rev 2:10. If we are not faithful until death we will not recieve a crown of life. What is the crown of life? It is also mentioned in James 1:12 as something the Lord promised to those who love Him. John 15:10 says that if we keep Christ’s commandments we will also abide in his love. If we keep God’s commandments we will go to heaven. So the “Crown of Life” is heaven. So be faithful until death and you will go to heaven (don’t be faithful until death and you won’t go to heaven) So even if purgatory were true than it would end in some non-existance, because heaven has already passed you by.
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HMarie, where is I Jn 5:16-17 in your schema? According to Catholic teaching, souls in Purgatory are actually in the antechamber of Heaven. They are “saved.” Heaven has by no means “passed them by.”

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**1031 **The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
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**1472 **To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
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As a former Protestant, I, too had early reservations about Purgatory, based on some of the fanciful devotional images contained in popular devotion, which I confused with the official doctrine. For me, the scale was tipped by two verses of Scripture.
  1. But nothing unclean shall enter it [the Heavenly City], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (Rev. 21:27)
  2. Our God is a consuming fire. (Heb 12:29)
Bottom line: We must be pure, not just have purity imputed to us to enter Heaven. And, if our God is a consuming fire, then the souls in Heaven must be able to subsist in that fire – what cannot withstand the fire – our impurity – is burned away by the consuming fire of God himself, and only the purified soul remains to stand in his presence.
 
HMARIEH, thank you for your refrence to Gal 5. Taking that passage and studying what went before it a couple of things and I hopefully will be able to tie this into our inquires about Purgatory. First the list Paul gives are vises well known in his time as in ours. 19 - 25 provides a contrast to an earlier passage in Gal. concerning our conduct. Simply put what we see as the root of these sin is that they are so inwardly directed, we become totally taken up with them (ourselves actually) that we cannot be of loving service to others as Christ was and called us to be. Earlier, in Gal. (chapter 2) Paul re accounts his dispute with Peter. Paul’s argument with Peter was not over a “Dogma” or “Doctrine” rather it was Peter’s behavior, and Peter did take the faternal correction. Consider this now, if Peter, who we know Loved Christ Jesus (he would eventually die for him) and was filled by the Holy Spirit at the birth of the Church at Pentacost, yet could sin by failing to live fully his call as a Christian by showing prejudice towards the gentile christians of Antioch, doesn’t that show that we can sin yet not fully reject God’s Love thus not being damned? Again, human reason and experience should show us that’s the case - otherwise wouldn’t we all be sent to hell for our sins, even small ones (and yes there are small sins - a kid stealing candy is a sin but I don’t see it as a cause to be damned if he choked to death while eating it). This brings me back to my question inspired by Timidity, what happens to those who die without making complete atonement for their sins - even the small one or less grave. For me that period from death to the full enjoyment of Heaven after we have atoned for all the wrong we have done is Purgatory.
 
Isaiah 55:8-9 says, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, NOr are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” When did humans get so smart that they could come up with better ideas than God? That we should decide how far his patience will endure us and allow ourselves false hope in a god that is made false in defiled worship?!
Have you all opened up the Bible to see that your teachers speak as the oracles of God? Or do you trust men so much that you should listen only to them.
Lev. 10:1-7 is the story of Nadab and Abihu who took strange fire before the Lord and were consummed by fire from the Lord. No one, not even his family, was to mourn for them. If they had they would have been killed too. Nadab and Abihu knew what they were supposed to do, but they didn’t do so they were struck down. 1 Chronicles 13:9-10, Uzzah is struck down by God because he steadied the Ark of the Covenant. Acts 5:1-10 Ananias and Sapphira lied about the price of the land they sold and they were killed with little warning. How much more will our judgment be! If you know good and do evil should you not be so deserving of this and more?
TOME, do not ask me who will be saved and who will be delivered to the devil. Ask He who will judge you also in the last day.
Rom 5:11 says we have already been atoned. rom 5:18 says that because we have all sinned judment came to us, but because Christ’s of death we are now able to be atoned, ammend will be made. Of course we have our part in fulfilling the conditions, but we don’t have to go to Purgatory! That is what Jesus did when he died for us.
As for 1 John 5:16-17, you misunderstood. You can spot misunderstanding when you see what seems to be a contridiction of God’s words. James 1:15 says “Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.” What sin was he refering to? Any and every sin. So doesn’t every sin lead to death? There is the contridiction and here is the explanation. The lesson to be learned in 1 John 5:16-17 is this; that if a brother sins bring it to him that he may ask God’s forgiveness. Luke 17:3 shows this, and Matt. 18:15-17 does too. 1 John 5:16, “…There is a sin leading to death do not pray for that”, what does that mean. If a brother’s sin leads him to death, do not pray for him.
 
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HMarieH:
Isaiah 55:8-9 says, “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, NOr are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.” When did humans get so smart that they could come up with better ideas than God? That we should decide how far his patience will endure us and allow ourselves false hope in a god that is made false in defiled worship?!
Have you all opened up the Bible to see that your teachers speak as the oracles of God? Or do you trust men so much that you should listen only to them.
Lev. 10:1-7 is the story of Nadab and Abihu who took strange fire before the Lord and were consummed by fire from the Lord. No one, not even his family, was to mourn for them. If they had they would have been killed too. Nadab and Abihu knew what they were supposed to do, but they didn’t do so they were struck down. 1 Chronicles 13:9-10, Uzzah is struck down by God because he steadied the Ark of the Covenant. Acts 5:1-10 Ananias and Sapphira lied about the price of the land they sold and they were killed with little warning. How much more will our judgment be! If you know good and do evil should you not be so deserving of this and more?
TOME, do not ask me who will be saved and who will be delivered to the devil. Ask He who will judge you also in the last day.
Rom 5:11 says we have already been atoned. rom 5:18 says that because we have all sinned judment came to us, but because Christ’s of death we are now able to be atoned, ammend will be made. Of course we have our part in fulfilling the conditions, but we don’t have to go to Purgatory! That is what Jesus did when he died for us.
As for 1 John 5:16-17, you misunderstood. You can spot misunderstanding when you see what seems to be a contridiction of God’s words. James 1:15 says “Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.” What sin was he refering to? Any and every sin. So doesn’t every sin lead to death? There is the contridiction and here is the explanation. The lesson to be learned in 1 John 5:16-17 is this; that if a brother sins bring it to him that he may ask God’s forgiveness. Luke 17:3 shows this, and Matt. 18:15-17 does too. 1 John 5:16, “…There is a sin leading to death do not pray for that”, what does that mean. If a brother’s sin leads him to death, do not pray for him.
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What’s that got to do with Purgatory?? Purgatory is not a holding cell for people who die in the ways you’ve mentioned (where their sins caused their deaths), in hopes that ignorant Catholics will pray their ways to Heaven! Nobody has made that claim, my friend! You’ve been able to spout so much Scripture in your recent posts, that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject (But they look good, don’t they?)!

Purgatory (I don’t know why I’m repeating this, as it hasn’t sunk in, yet) is the place where our unforgiven venial sins, and the stains of any of our forgiven sins (mortal and venial alike) are purged from us. We are not perfect when we die, and all in heaven is perfect, so there must be a cleansing process. Hence, Purgatory!

I saw this the other day and thought it was a beautiful thought:
Purgatory is the vestibule of Heaven, not the anteroom of Hell.
It is the mountain-climb to the glorious summit of the Beatific Vision of God

Notworthy
 
HMarieH,
I have to respectfully disagree with you on your interpetation of 1 John 5 as seen in the light of James 1:15. Sin and a sinful life may lead us to totally reject God and thus be damned. But this is not the necassary out come of any particular sin (unless Mortal) or sins. I say this in light of Lk 11:1 - 4; Mt. 6: 9 -13; Jn 21: 15-17; and perhaps the best example parable wise Lk 15: 11 - 32.
Also concider the meaning of Jesus’ actions in Jn 20: 19-23. Also, I must disagree with you on your interpetations you offered in speaking of being atoned for our sins. Yes, Christ’s Paschal Sacrifice did propitiate our relationship to God. Our sins were atoned by this free gift and through this free gift we were justified, and made righteous. However, if you study the scripture you will find that Justification means we have been relieved of our debts and reconciled into a new relationship with God. In this new relationship we have been made righteous meaning we can now know the “Will of God” and “Act on it” - That is the scriptural definition of a righteous person. Can you please point out to me any place in the NT when Christ does not demand an active response of his followers through this actions of their lives - especially in showing Mercy? Taking the NT letters in their entirety and not by singleing out a verse here and there, where the Authors of these lettes demand and Active response? Doesn’t Matthew 25 relate to us that we will be judge by our actions? But what about those actions (or non-action) that while haven’t cut us off from the full love of God, still has deminished or relationship with God? (A reminder, I am talking about a state a person is in at the moment of death) Can you show me any passage in scripture the negates the personal responsibility of sin and sin’s effects?
Now, back to Purgatory, again it is a state of Purification for those who have been saved (judged worthy to enter into the Heavenly Banquet) so that we may enjoy without any personal hindrance God’s Glory and Love… I think, based on Mt 25, you would agree that there will be a Final Judgement, would you consider standing infront of every person who ever was and having every thing you did -good and bad - revealed a real Purgatory? (If not try being evaluated by a group of your peers.)
 
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