Versus Populum

[Danny_1]

Does anyone have any information on when and where facing the people and not the altar first started? What Protestant denominations did it before it became the norm in the Catholic Church?

 

[patrick457]

Does anyone have any information on when and where facing the people and not the altar first started? What Protestant denominations did it before it became the norm in the Catholic Church?

The Versus Populum was done in Ancient Times in Churches where instead of the Apse, the Doors are in the East or in Churches where the ‘Confessio’ (like that in St. Peter’s) is directly in front of the Altar that facing the back is impossible.

In that case, the Priest is facing the East while facing the people but there were times in the Liturgy where the people will also be required to face the East (and thus, turn their backs to the Priest).

As for the other denominations, I don’t know exactly. Sorry.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

In ancient times, the priest faced east, period. That was the sole concern in his orientation. The people arranged themselves during the Liturgy of the Eucharist so as to have a common facing with the priest because they, too, were supposed to be facing east. Slowly, the common facing came to dominate the equation (p(name removed by moderator)ointing the exact reason for these shifts is like asking two Jews a question on theology - you’ll get three answers), so that the concept of liturgical east was born. With this conception it was seen as sufficient for orientation that priest and people be the same even if they weren’t all looking at true east. I personally suspect it came about because people got used to be arrayed in rows behind the priest (not an ancient position, BTW), but got stuck with sites on which churches could not be built to accomodate this standing arrangement toward true east. At any rate, facing east was only entirely and officially dropped around 1965 with the reform of the Roman Missal. The notion that Mass should be celebrated facing the people (as opposed to one either of the earlier conceptions in which the celebration faced God, no matter where the people happened to be) is an incredibly recent novelty. Cdl. Ratzinger discusses this in his The Spirit of the Liturgy.

NB - if we’re looking for non-Catholic liturgical sources, the Reformers advocated celebration facing the people long before the idea gained ground in the Catholic Church, but I figured that wasn’t really what you were looking for

 

[dylanschrader]

In ancient times, the priest faced east, period. That was the sole concern in his orientation. The people arranged themselves during the Liturgy of the Eucharist so as to have a common facing with the priest because they, too, were supposed to be facing east. Slowly, the common facing came to dominate the equation (p(name removed by moderator)ointing the exact reason for these shifts is like asking two Jews a question on theology - you’ll get three answers), so that the concept of liturgical east was born. With this conception it was seen as sufficient for orientation that priest and people be the same even if they weren’t all looking at true east. I personally suspect it came about because people got used to be arrayed in rows behind the priest (not an ancient position, BTW), but got stuck with sites on which churches could not be built to accomodate this standing arrangement toward true east. At any rate, facing east was only entirely and officially dropped around 1965 with the reform of the Roman Missal. The notion that Mass should be celebrated facing the people (as opposed to one either of the earlier conceptions in which the celebration faced God, no matter where the people happened to be) is an incredibly recent novelty. Cdl. Ratzinger discusses this in his The Spirit of the Liturgy.

NB - if we’re looking for non-Catholic liturgical sources, the Reformers advocated celebration facing the people long before the idea gained ground in the Catholic Church, but I figured that wasn’t really what you were looking for

Good historical information, and I second the recommendation to read The Spirit of the Liturgy.

The idea of Mass versus populum is based on some faulty archaeological and historical interpretations.

Facing east was never dropped, though. It’s still perfectly legitimate in the current Missal.

 

[kleary]

The practice of “facing the people” is NOT a Christian practice period. Those who put this concept forth as a Christian practice need to read history and learn - that for the priest to intentionally face the people during the Mass was NEVER a liturgical practice.

The priest faces liturgical East in the Traditional Roman Liturgy, and then again North when he reads the Gospel. North is the direction of the pagans. The direction of the Liturgy, where the priest faces when offering Mass means something- it shows a CATHOLIC doctrine so to say. Namely the sacrificial nature of what he is doing in the altar- for he is offering it in the direction of the “Second Coming” of Jesus- Eastward.

Now- where did Mass facing the people come from, since it is not a Christian practice?

Martin Luther invented the practice. He saw the last supper paintings and decided to make the liturgy look like those paintings- with the priest at the table looking out at the people- just like the last supper paintings with Jesus facing you at a long table.

The practice of “facing the people”, table instead of altar, communion in the hand are liturgical practices brought back by the Protestant reformers to deny the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the Catholic priesthood.

Ken

 

[patrick457]

The practice of “facing the people” is NOT a Christian practice period. Those who put this concept forth as a Christian practice need to read history and learn - that for the priest to intentionally face the people during the Mass was NEVER a liturgical practice.

The priest faces liturgical East in the Traditional Roman Liturgy, and then again North when he reads the Gospel. North is the direction of the pagans. The direction of the Liturgy, where the priest faces when offering Mass means something- it shows a CATHOLIC doctrine so to say. Namely the sacrificial nature of what he is doing in the altar- for he is offering it in the direction of the “Second Coming” of Jesus- Eastward.

Now- where did Mass facing the people come from, since it is not a Christian practice?

Martin Luther invented the practice. He saw the last supper paintings and decided to make the liturgy look like those paintings- with the priest at the table looking out at the people- just like the last supper paintings with Jesus facing you at a long table.

The practice of “facing the people”, table instead of altar, communion in the hand are liturgical practices brought back by the Protestant reformers to deny the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the Catholic priesthood.

Ken

Martin Luther invented it?

For some reason, I’ve heard that Lutherans traditionally have their Altars fixed at the wall, Prayers directed to God-face the Altar, to the people-face the congregation (Or did they take it from Catholics?)
, though I’ll check.

From here: 1stlutheranchurch.org/mainaltar.htm

The right of the altar is called the “Epistle Side,” and the left of the altar is called the “Gospel Side.” The platform upon which the altar rests is called the “predella.” Its purpose is to elevate the altar above all other church floor levels.

The sacramental parts of the service are those which are addressed to God. At such times the pastor, with the congregation including the choir, always faces the altar. In the sacrificial parts, the pastor faces the congregation. The congregation should always face the altar, or the pastor when he is speaking, during the entire worship period.

Since the altar directs our attention to the fundamental doctrines of our faith, it calls for the highest reverence, whether service is in progress or not. We convene before it for meditation and corporate worship only.

(Though of course they do not believe in the mediation of priests so they do not have any so-called ‘barriers’ to the Altar)

 

[Danny_1]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

So was facing the people mandated by the Roman Missal of Vatican II or did it absolutely mandate it? I was told it was only an option?

 

[kleary]

Martin Luther invented it?

For some reason, I’ve heard that many Lutherans have their Altars fixed at the wall, Prayers directed to God-face the Altar, to the people-face the congregation (Or did they take it from Catholics?)
, though I’ll check.

From here: 1stlutheranchurch.org/mainaltar.htm

Ohio these people are in- maybe they are not following Luther to the T. Maybe some things have changed since Luther’s changes back in the 16’th century.

“The concept of a “versus populum” celebration is one that would have been totally alien to the ancient Church. The first recorded instance of a reference to a celebration “versus populism” in all of Church history is by Martin Luther”
unavoceca.org/Archives/1998/19980628.html

Ken

 

[kleary]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

So was facing the people mandated by the Roman Missal of Vatican II or did it absolutely mandate it? I was told it was only an option?

It is an option I believe, unless the local ordinary says otherwise. I know of a place that has the Novus Ordo ad orientum. Our Lady of the Angels Monastery also has their conventual Mass ad orientum…they used to have the televised Mass the same way until their local bishop stopped it some time ago.

Ken

 

[AJV]

Now- where did Mass facing the people come from, since it is not a Christian practice?

Martin Luther invented the practice. He saw the last supper paintings and decided to make the liturgy look like those paintings- with the priest at the table looking out at the people- just like the last supper paintings with Jesus facing you at a long table.

The Ritus Servandus of the Missal of St. Pius V which was based on that of Burckard written in 1502 (while Luther was still very much in communion with the Church) mentions it. *Versus populum *is mentioned by the Ordines Romani-some of which distinguish between “to the east” and “to the people”. However Msgr. Gamber held that the entrances to churches in Rome were oriented to the East, and proves that quite well.

It was not Luther who invented the practise, since he was still very much a ritualist in his beliefs celebrating his services versus apsidem. Many of his earlier guidelines also presume this position. He would have regarded the issue as inconsequential in any case.

 

[kleary]

The Ritus Servandus of the Missal of St. Pius V which was based on that of Burckard written in 1502 (while Luther was still very much in communion with the Church) mentions it. *Versus populum *is mentioned by the Ordines Romani-some of which distinguish between “to the east” and “to the people”. However Msgr. Gamber held that the entrances to churches in Rome were oriented to the East, and proves that quite well.

It was not Luther who invented the practise, since he was still very much a ritualist in his beliefs celebrating his services versus apsidem. Many of his earlier guidelines also presume this position. He would have regarded the issue as inconsequential in any case.

“to the people” = as to the times in the Mass when the priest would turn to address the people- “Dominus vobiscom”, “Orate fratres.” I seriously doubt the Missal of St. Pius V notes an option of having the priest stand behind a freestanding altar to intentionally face the people throughout the liturgy as it is done today in the Novus Ordo. The fact that the priest would “accidentally” “face the people” due to the design of the building is not the issue here. Those who are pro “ad orientum” know this quite well.

The “face the people” issue as put forth by the neo-cons today is for purely pastoral reasons that the Church has found useful, no problem there, but the issue still remains of an appearance of a concession to Protestants. I will have to double check my sources as far as Luther goes, however it is fact that the practice of standing behind a table to face the people throughout the liturgy, intentionally, is a purely Protestant innovation to give the appearance of Jesus standing behind a table at the last supper.

http://bridegroompress.com/images/story/23 LastSupper.jpg
Note - behind a table - facing you - at supper

Ken

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I can’t speak to Luther’s full liturgical revisions, but his initial changes to the Mass were such that the parishioner in the pew would have had little to no idea that changes had been made - the early Luther still celebrated in Latin, ad orientem, with traditional vestments (and even his tonsure). He was an advocate of very gradual change out of concern for the weakest members of the congregation, so only those things that “true Christianity” could not tolerate were changed in the Mass. Most happened to be during the sotto voce portions, so cosmetically his earliest reform was basically the same as its predecessor other than the words of institution now being audible. I don’t doubt that Luther at some point advocated facing the people, but it was not at all necessary for him. It would have been much more so for Reformers within the Reformed tradition (Zwingli, Bullinger, Calvin, Bucer, etc.).

 

[Richie_Rich]

Yes, there are Protestant roots to the history and use of the versus populum altar. During the Reformation, Anglican Archbishop Thomas Cranmer advocated changing the location of the altar so as to celebrate the liturgy versus populum. The distinction between a high altar at the eastern wall of the church and the versus populum altar is also a distinction to be historically attributed to Anglican churches. A term used to indicate the versus populum altar is to call it a “Cranmer’s Table”.