Very bad experience in Church

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pristine2 said:
Had the congregation just been hissing at me, I’d be well over it by now. But my precious children were at my side. I’d brought them to the front out of love, as I had every Sunday before then. Please don’t belittle how horrible & humiliating the experience was.

**I don’t doubt my own shortcomings. But I think you don’t quite understand how I perceive what happened. Our very presence had somehow contaminated the sacrament, as if we were pariahs. The past 18 months came rushing back. **We had approached the church, and it had repelled us, like we were some kind of infection. I can’t ignore this.
I feel ostracised – and ostracism is precisely what I am compelled to protect my children from. I might be willing to take this risk, but not for my children – especially my oldest child, for whom exclusion has already been a defining factor in his life. He was excluded from his own community. We have to bus him 25 miles away because no local school was “equipped to meet his needs.” Except for his family, he is utterly alone.

I like to feel I’ve made more progress in my own connection with Jesus. In that, the Church has made a difference, and for this I’m grateful. But the experience raised real doubts in me that the Church is the only place I, or my children, can establish a relationship with Him.

And it is very hard to ignore the voice of grandfather, who often told me as a child – “don’t hang around where you’re not welcome.”

Thank you for adding us to your prayers. And when you say you are a “Catholic with a vengeance,” what do you mean? Who is the target of this vengeance?

I do hear a calling. That’s why we showed up at church. If I have to prove to others somehow that my relationship with Jesus is sincere, I can try. But it’s clear to me now that being Catholic is a lot more complicated than that.

I’m not even sure that their behaviour was rude, and the people hissing at us were not Chinese. I don’t blame the Church. I feel sadness that we were not born into it. But yes, at some level, it felt that the church itself was hissing at us: “Go away.”

I hadn’t understood that there was disagreement among Catholics about Alpha, which I was never able to attend anyway.

Your remark does explain one thing that had troubled me. I visited the US last year and attended church in a small town where, one day, we hope to live. After mass I spoke to the priest. He also reacted with frowns when I told him about Alpha and (at that point) I was about to start classes. He told me I should NOT attend, and walked away without explanation. I’d wondered how I had offended him.

But as for calling the diocese, I’m not sure what it would accomplish. The very act would seem like a complaint that our priest, a very respected man, had erred somehow, drawing even more negative attention to ourselves.

Anyway, I have too many doubts now that the Church is the right place for us. I want to find a community of Christians that will accept us, that is interested in us, that will reach out to us, that is ready to help us be Christians. I want a safe, warm, loving community for my child. That’s my priority. If that’s selfish and un-Catholic, it’s all the more reason I do not belong.
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It’s just a little joke, doing something “with a vengeance” just means you do it intensely and putting all of your heart and soul into it.

I see that nothing I can say is going to change your mind. I will tell you that the religious utopia of always loving, always safe, always caring people does not exist on this earth. Churches of all sorts are filled with sinners. Some churches are hotbeds of political infighting. Some are gossip factories. Some are just disorganized, or have strayed away from their own mission. I can understand that you want your children to feel welcome. And I hope you find that. But I do think you are expecting too much from a church. And protecting your children from every possible slight will do them no favors long-term. They have to grow up some day and face the world with all of its stupidity, ignorance, and even evil. You can’t keep them cocooned forever. I would say, better to toughen them up to be able to deal with silly people and keep their own confidence no matter what.

I am really sorry that you had the experience, and that it was so dramatic as to make you describe it the way you did. I am 100% sure that no one in the church that day felt that you had “contaminated” the Eucharist or that you were an “infection.” You just made a mistake, that’s all. Their reaction was over the top - someone should have walked over, explained quietly and led you back to your pew. You are interpreting the event with your own distortions, and I hope you can see that. Even when the priest merely told you not to attend Alpha, you worried that you had somehow offended him. I think you are used to thinking that people are finding fault with you. I hope you can let that go someday.

I hope you are able to return to the US and experience the joy of a Catholic parish.
 
pristine2 said:
Despite my best efforts over the past 18 months or so, I’m still not Catholic, nor are my children, and after tonight I suppose we may never be.

We live in Hong Kong, in a small village in the mountains. We aren’t Chinese. I’m American, my wife is Indian. My eight-year-old son has tuberous sclerosis complex, a congenital disease that affects development. His six-year old sister is a normal, healthy child. We’ve been attending Catholic Church on Sunday mornings since Dec 2010. My wife does not object, but neither does she wish to attend.

There are Sunday school classes for the kids, although these are irregular. Sometimes the teacher does not appear for weeks. But when the classes happen, the children enjoy them. The routine is very nice. The school lets out about halfway through the mass. When the children come in, they are invited to come up to the front to hold hands and recite the Lord’s prayer.

Early last year I emailed the Church to ask them about bringing my family into the Catholic Church. I was told I first need to convert myself, and to do that I should attend the "Alpha’ classes. I’d just missed the classes, though, and would have to wait until September. In August I emailed again, and was told they had not found anyone to teach the classes, but they would start in February. Alas, when I contacted the church in February, I was told the classes had begun in September after all.

So last Sunday I approached a man who had been friendly with the children and me, and asked him if there might be some other way to start bringing my family more formally into the Catholic community. He suggested that I bring the children to Saturday evening mass. It is was smaller and cozier, he said, with more westerners, and easier to meet people who might be interested in sponsoring us.

So I brought the children to church this evening, It was crowded. First there were some baptisms. Then the woman at the podium said “will the children please come up to the front with their sponsors”. I figured this was like the Sunday ritual, and the children would stand in the front near the priest, hold hands and say the Lord’s prayer.

So I bring the children up, and everyone is staring at us. Then people started hissing at us. Seriously. Finally the woman who had made the announcement approached us and asked us to sit down. We did not realise we had crashed a confirmation.

We tried to recover our seats as soon as possible, but no one wanted to let us through. We literally fled the church.

Definitely one of the worst, most humiliating experiences of my life. Fortunately my son has the cognitive age of a three year old, and my daughter is too young to understand what happened.

But I now dread the thought of ever going back into that church.
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Have you talked to your wife about what beliefs you both share together? I’m sure you have something in common if you really look. Then choose a spiritual path that you can both tread together, with your children.

I would never in my life go back to an community that acted in such a self-superior and non-compassionate way. I cringe along with you, and I’m very sorry you went through this. 😦
 
TheRealJuliane said:
It’s just a little joke, doing something “with a vengeance” just means you do it intensely and putting all of your heart and soul into it.

I see that nothing I can say is going to change your mind. I will tell you that the religious utopia of always loving, always safe, always caring people does not exist on this earth. Churches of all sorts are filled with sinners. Some churches are hotbeds of political infighting. Some are gossip factories. Some are just disorganized, or have strayed away from their own mission. I can understand that you want your children to feel welcome. And I hope you find that. But I do think you are expecting too much from a church…
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Juliane, you know I often agree with you, but here I just think you are putting the stress on the wrong place.
This man is not even Catholic yet, he has gone out of his way to follow the whims of a bad community and not been treated well, and you expect him to be a martyr?

Its funny here… even many Catholics seem to agree : we suck at having church, we are coldhearted people, but praise God we have the truth, and people should join us although they will suffocate with loneliness and dryness in our parishes.

Is that really good enough?!

Actually churches that function well, where there is a great spirit of unity, fellowship and truth are found all over the world. I have been such places.
But the evangelical churches seem to out number catholic churches when it comes to charity and zeal for brotherly love.

We have to demand more of ourselves, not of people like the opening poster.
We as church have failed him and his children… we need to say we are sorry instead of demanding that he should just take it and try again and again.
 
Dear OP,

I am very sorry to hear about your bad experience, and I am sure others on this forum too feel the same and have expressed so.

Anyway, I decided to respond to you because I am Asian Catholic who does live in Asia and have attended Church in various parts of HKG (of course mainly in town). Whatever the case, while I am not sure which part of New Territories that you live in… here is the linked to the Acrhdiocese that has the list of all the Catholic Churches in HKG.

catholic.org.hk/v2/en/index.html

Whether you decided to go back to the parish that you have been attending for over 18 months (of which you do seem to be somewhat comfortable, other than this one incident) is something I am sure you will figure out. But I just want to add my 2cents (maybe not very welcome ;p ) - Alot of times as parents/adults we preceive certain things (here bad behaviour), but as children they sometimes are not as concern as we are. In fact, it is because as adults/parents we react more that the child is actually more aware, because he/she picks up how their parents feel. Please do not read this as me undermining bad behaviour. Just something to think about.

As for Alpha, it is an Anglican program that was introduced to the Catholic church. But it is a very general program allowing the participants to have a general idea of Jesus/God, etc. Not a bad program, but it is not exactly Catholicentric. Guess the parish you have been attending has decided to make it part of their introductory program.

Therefore, I pray that instead of letting your feelings or emotions take center-stage here, do consider what is it in the homilies of the Priest that has attracted you? So much so that you have committed 18 months of your time, before you decide to “pack your bags and go.” And what would you like to teach your children about how to handle a “difficult/bad” situation?

Sorry for the long post, I really wrote a lot more than I had planned. All the best and may you allow the Holy Spirit (since we just celebrated Pentacost Sunday) guide you in all you do.

Blessings
Godloves U
 
GraceDK said:
Juliane, you know I often agree with you, but here I just think you are putting the stress on the wrong place.
This man is not even Catholic yet, he has gone out of his way to follow the whims of a bad community and not been treated well, and you expect him to be a martyr?

Its funny here… even many Catholics seem to agree : we suck at having church, we are coldhearted people, but praise God we have the truth, and people should join us although they will suffocate with loneliness and dryness in our parishes.

Is that really good enough?!

Actually churches that function well, where there is a great spirit of unity, fellowship and truth are found all over the world. I have been such places.
But the evangelical churches seem to out number catholic churches when it comes to charity and zeal for brotherly love.

We have to demand more of ourselves, not of people like the opening poster.
We as church have failed him and his children… we need to say we are sorry instead of demanding that he should just take it and try again and again.
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No, I do not agree in any way with your statement that “we suck at having church!” Let alone that we are “coldhearted people!” My goodness, what size roller are you using to paint Catholics with??? That’s simply ridiculous. You’re taking one incident (admittedly very rude and uncalled-for) and turning into “just the way Catholics are.”

All we have to go by is the OP’s report, none of us were on hand. It could be that because of his extra sensitivity about his son’s disability, that the whole church wasn’t hissing at him and some people may have been sympathetic, but he couldn’t see that. Not to downplay his embarrassment and dismay, I’m sure they were very deep in those moments.

I said nothing about him being a martyr. I asked him a valid question about his overall goal of protecting his children from any discomfort in life, which this experience would fit into. As a mommy, I know that the impulse to wrap our kids in bubble wrap can seem very sensible in an unsafe and basically hostile world, but that’s not going to give them any means to deal with the reality once they leave the protective shelter of our homes.

I am not minimizing the OP’s distress. I’m sure it was a very difficult experience to go through. I wish him nothing but the best, but that totally warm and fuzzy church he’s looking for does not exist, because human beings inhabit churches.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
No, I do not agree in any way with your statement that “we suck at having church!” Let alone that we are “coldhearted people!” My goodness, what size roller are you using to paint Catholics with??? That’s simply ridiculous. You’re taking one incident (admittedly very rude and uncalled-for) and turning into “just the way Catholics are.”

You are right. I apologize. I did generalize too much. Probably because I am a convert myself and know severel converts who have similar experiences, having been in really fantastic evangelical fellowships and then coming over like fiery coals being put in a cold spot where we are asked not to expect anything called human warmth because we are now in a “hospital of sinners” and we shouldn’t complain because we now have the Eucharist. I have many rude incidents to tell you and stories of unthriving communities etc, sufice it to say that we will continue to loose a lot of members if we dont get better at having fellowships. Again I think American Church might do a better job at it, but I also know American converts who feel a great loss leaving behind wonderful fellowships and enthusiastic Christians when they seek to follow Truth and become Catholics…

All we have to go by is the OP’s report, none of us were on hand. It could be that because of his extra sensitivity about his son’s disability, that the whole church wasn’t hissing at him and some people may have been sympathetic, but he couldn’t see that. Not to downplay his embarrassment and dismay, I’m sure they were very deep in those moments.

He also said no one had reached out to him and his family in all the time they have gone to that church. for over a year…

I am not minimizing the OP’s distress. I’m sure it was a very difficult experience to go through. I wish him nothing but the best, but that totally warm and fuzzy church he’s looking for does not exist, because human beings inhabit churches.

**How do you know that “warm and fuzzy churches” dont exist? How many have you visited? I have been in some that were certainly warm. I don’t know what you mean by fuzzy… but I felt great when I came in and I felt great when I walked out, and the first time I came people noticed and before long I have made deep friendships, was invited to joing groups and events… It was edifying. This is what Church life is supposed to be. Thats Biblical. **
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GraceDK said:
How do you know that “warm and fuzzy churches” dont exist? How many have you visited? I have been in some that were certainly warm. I don’t know what you mean by fuzzy… but I felt great when I came in and I felt great when I walked out, and the first time I came people noticed and before long I have made deep friendships, was invited to joing groups and events… It was edifying. This is what Church life is supposed to be. Thats Biblical.
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What I meant was that all churches include HUMAN BEINGS with all of our failings. I have never yet heard of any church that didn’t include people who are power-hungry, some who are backstabbers, some who are gossipers. Some who will tattle to the priest or pastor; some who are passive-aggressive and will ruin programs just for the sake of it. Every church includes these people. However warm you feel at first (and some churches are better at welcomes), as soon as you start getting to know people, you see that they are sinners the same as every other person on earth.

On this forum, we have people critiquing our Church for everything under the sun. Some are specifically trying to sew doubt and discord among Catholics. Some are disgruntled Catholics. Some just like to complain about something. For myself, I am not going to compare our Church to one of the non-denominational rah-rah rally churches, or any Protestant church either. No, we aren’t perfect, and yes, some parishes could improve at welcoming new folks. But I tire of hearing how “we aren’t doing it right,” and I think we are doing more things right than wrong.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
What I meant was that all churches include HUMAN BEINGS with all of our failings. I have never yet heard of any church that didn’t include people who are power-hungry, some who are backstabbers, some who are gossipers. Some who will tattle to the priest or pastor; some who are passive-aggressive and will ruin programs just for the sake of it. Every church includes these people. However warm you feel at first (and some churches are better at welcomes), as soon as you start getting to know people, you see that they are sinners the same as every other person on earth.

You assume that I just went to visit once or twice… No I went to a church for a long time where I experienced a warmth, fellowship and enthusiasm for Jesus Christ that I havent experienced in other parishes. Knowing this exists I hunger more for it than people who say it doesn’t exist.

On this forum, we have people critiquing our Church for everything under the sun. Some are specifically trying to sew doubt and discord among Catholics. Some are disgruntled Catholics. Some just like to complain about something. For myself, I am not going to compare our Church to one of the non-denominational rah-rah rally churches, or any Protestant church either. No, we aren’t perfect, and yes, some parishes could improve at welcoming new folks. But I tire of hearing how “we aren’t doing it right,” and I think we are doing more things right than wrong.

**Well, I will admit that I am disapointed with the Catholic parishes I have been to sometimes. I have been disapointed with myself too, and I can admit that as well…
What I think is that our claims as Catholics are the biggest, and therefore it can sound most hollow too: we have the fullness of truth, the most direct way to heaven, the sacraments that most release grace in life and promote virtue… and then when we often fail at something as basic as having real Christian community, it strikes harder than the faults of others who don’t have these big claims of being in the truth… Do you understand what I mean Juliane? We need to work harder, as communities … especially at re-evangelisation,. Thats where it all really starts. You might feel Im back-stabbing the Church, but I think that the opening poster feels more respected and welcome by people who admit the wrong than those who give excuses. **
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I really did not mean to cause a stir. I’m sorry if I have created any discord. I’m very grateful for all the advice and feedback. That’s what I needed and all of you were very generous.

I’m sad about what happened but I am not angry and I am by no means condemning the Catholic Church. Though I failed to join, I’m still happy that the church exists.

The Catholic Church is very important for Hong Kong, and not only for Catholics. It is a potent force for democracy, human rights and social justice. Even if I cannot be part of it, I know it is a force for good in this world.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
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I have also warned you that the Alpha program is NOT Catholic, so you should really talk to the diocese about RCIA programs and see if they are all using the Alpha program. Is there some reason you will not call the diocese?
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As a matter of fact, there is indeed a ‘Catholic Alpha’ as part of the Alpha set-up. It is called ‘Alpha in a Catholic context’, and has been spoke favourably of by not one, but two Cardinals, and archbishops as well. For instance, his Eminence Cardinal Marc Oueller, and Archbishop Octavio Ruiz, Secretary for the Pontifical Council for Promoting the New Evangelisation.

Five minutes Googling will save the OP making a call to the diocese which would only result in being proved wrong. It’s always best to check facts before giving advice.
 
Sorry, Alpha originated in the Episcopal/Anglican Church, not going to endorse it in any context. Nope.

:nope:
 
Pristine, i feel my heart is smashed a hundred ways reading your pain.

I have a child with developmental disabilities.

My very dear friend has a precious boy, a schoolmate of my daughter, with tsc. It is a very challenging disorder with frightening possibilities. She is profoundly protective of him. Disorder in his own body is his powerful enemy-- how can she not be overwhelmingly protective? Just like you are with your children, especially your child with tscomplex.

I also run a special catechism program in our parish called Inclusion Ministry. It is for our brothers and sisters in Christ with developmental disabilities and their families. It helps families with developmental disabilities to feel included in the Liturgy and in parish life. Just this month, the bishop confirmed 5 teens and adults with dd and a girl with severe cognitive disability received Eucharist for the first time!!! If you were here with us, we would embrace you, honor you, undefstand you and love you. Why? Because GOD HIMSELF embraces you and loves you. And your precious wife and children.

I wish there was a reason for you to come to Ann Arbor michigan because we want you here!

But if you cannot come, my prayers will come to you. Im asking our Good God for a healing of your emotions. Im asking Our Lord Jesus to send HIS Spirit to strengthen your healing heart. Im asking Our Sweet Jesus to open the right doors for you to enter the Church and receive the sacraments. Im asking HIM to embrace your family in a most special and loving way. A way that is palpable and obvious to you.

Im asking Jesus’ sweet mother Mary to mother you and your family. At the wedding feast at Cana, mary said about Jesus, " do whatever he tells you to do." Those are Mary’s last recorded words in the Gospels. Those words echo to us today.

And whatever He tells you is to protect your family. He is also calling you to a sacramental relationship of joy and grace with HIM. but it seems these two powerful commands are at odds. Ask Jesus to show you how to obey both words. He will.

He loves you.

And I do too. I will tell your story to my friends. I am honored to be surrounded by families with loved ones with developmental and cognitive disabilities. We will all pray for you. From a distance, we embrace you and call you and your family our own.
 
An added note, pristine: in our parish, we call our loved ones with developmental disabilities " specially abled". Is this some politically correct hoohah? No. It is TRUTH.

The education system and society at large calls persons with developmental disabilities “special needs.” And while this is true as far as it goes, it is a weakness based assessment not accounting for their true value and dignity as persons.

We call our persons with developmental disabilities " specially abled" because they alone have the most special ability to teach us typical folk compassion, patience, inclusion. They have the special ability to test our catholic life ethic. They have the special ability to teach us to love better.

Your child is specially abled to teach the people around him to love better. Your child with tsc has a God-given mission.

So does my girl.

By virtue of being their parents, we have to help them in their mission.

Your children are blessed. They have a good father. And you have a Good Father in GOD. Go to Him. Tell Him all. Trust Him.
 
You made an honest mistake, and those people were being jerks when they were so rude to you. Do not let this change your path into the Church. Make an appointment with the priest and mention this incident when you speak to him. He needs to set some people straight at his parish so they do not treat a newcomer like that again.

Hopefully my story will make you feel better: When I was a child my entire 4th grade class was taken to a prayer service for All Soul’s Day to honor those that had passed away in the last year. After the prayer service we were told to go up and write in a book near the altar. It was a book where parishoners could write the names of deceased loved ones for rememberance and prayers. Due to the fact that our teacher did not tell us this little fact, the entire class signed our OWN names in the book. When the teacher got her turn to go up she saw that her entire class was now being remembered among the dead…

Honest mistakes happen! If handled appropriately they can be something to laugh about years later. When handled inappropriately (such as the rude actions of those at your parish) these things are sadly turned into very unhappy memories.

I wish you all the best and I will be praying that your family is welcomed into the Church with open arms! At least consider the many open arm welcomes from those here on these boards!
 
monicatholic said:
I also run a special catechism program in our parish called Inclusion Ministry. It is for our brothers and sisters in Christ with developmental disabilities and their families. It helps families with developmental disabilities to feel included in the Liturgy and in parish life.
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It sounds wonderful. I do wish there were something like that here. I really admire your efforts and appreciate your kindness toward us.

It’s hard to say how much my child’s disabilities had to do with our failure to join the church. I had asked very early on, in my email exchanges with the priest’s secretary, about how to approach baptism for him, and how we could involve him given his inability to understand the lessons in catechism classes.

The responses weren’t dismissive, but neither did they offer clear guidance. There seemed to be unfamiliarity about how to proceed. I sensed — what’s the phrase… doctrinal confusion? — about HOW someone without the intellectual capacity to understand the gospels is baptised. But she did at least reassure us that he CAN be baptised.

We’re used to such ambiguity from dealing with the local education system, so I was not offended or surprised by this. But our parish could certainly use some guidance from people like you.

Anyway, things never got that far. Aside from the woman I was corresponding with, whom I never met face to face, I don’t think anyone in church even knew that my son is disabled.
 
Specifically to your son being baptized,; in the US, we are guided by a document put out by the united states conference of catholic bishops which i cannot link from my phone. Do a search " sacraments for developmentally disabled persons." You will find the usccb document on the national inclusion ministry website or usccb website.

In a nutshell: your specially abled child would meet the criteria for an infant baptism. No catechesis of child is required. For eucharist and confirmation, the church catechises the specially abled to receive the sacraments. In situations where its uncertain if the candidate has understanding, the Church always chooses on the side of reception.

Even the guidelines for penance are beautiful and respectful.

Perhaps your diocese or conference of bishops has crafted similar guidelines.

But of a broader view, i pray for the healing of your pain. And i pray God shows you HIS tender and loving path to adhere to both His words-- your sincere commitment to protect your family from scorn and to follow HIS call into the Church.
 
Despite my experience, I feel so lucky to have found this group!

Wish I could re-title the thread “very NICE experience on Catholic Answers.” Or at least have you all over for supper.

If you’d like to know more about my son, he’s the star of this little video I made a few years ago (When I was just learning to play the mountain dulcimer:

youtube.com/watch?v=dxnOHN292BI

His sister is the star of this one:

youtube.com/watch?v=SFDI8StuaXE
 
OP, please do not let those who were uncharitable to you and your family due to your mistakes keep you from seeking out the faith. What they did that one time is very much uncalled for & never should’ve happened, even if its uncharitable of me to say they should maybe get the same treatment if they make a noticeable mistake at Mass to learn a valuable lesson. Apparently, they have forgotten the Golden Rule.

I hope you can find a church family and a priest that is understanding & willing to help you all. There are good and bad people, and unfortunately those who mistreated you, I hope they have repented what they did.
 
pristine2 said:
Despite my experience, I feel so lucky to have found this group!

Wish I could re-title the thread “very NICE experience on Catholic Answers.” Or at least have you all over for supper.

If you’d like to know more about my son, he’s the star of this little video I made a few years ago (When I was just learning to play the mountain dulcimer:

youtube.com/watch?v=dxnOHN292BI

His sister is the star of this one:

youtube.com/watch?v=SFDI8StuaXE
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Wow, Pristine2, thanks so much for sharing your son with us! He’s a handsome boy! And I am a big dulcimer fan, so great work on the instrument!

:love:

And your little girl is adorable too! “Gree!” LOL
 
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