very confused

[Monica4316]

Hi,

Can someone please help me out with this… why does it say in the Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary (in Vespers)

‘From the beginning, and before the world, was I created, and to the world to come I shall not cease to be’

and why does the Church apply this Scripture passage to Mary (or so I’ve heard)

'I came out of the mouth of the Most High, the first-born before all creatures. I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth. . . . My throne is in a pillar of cloud’

this somehow implies that Mary existed in eternity before she was born on earth… but doesn’t this make her a part of the Trinity? and the Trinity is only the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit… I believe that maybe she existed in God’s thought, and certainly right now she is in eternity and in glory, so in that way maybe we can refer to her as being outside of time… but the Church does teach that Mary had a beginning right? or did only her body have a beginning, not her soul?

can someone please clarify this for me…

I started thinking, what if this is true, and Mary has always existed… there are some people I’m talking to on Facebook who believe this. But it seems like such a foreign concept to me, like nothing I’ve ever heard in Catholicism, and wouldn’t it contradict the Trinity? I mean, if I ever find out it’s true (in Heaven) - I’ll accept it… but I’m always afraid of believing something incorrect, and now i’m not sure what is correct and what is the truth. Is this a Gnostic idea? but why is it in the Little Office?

By the way, I do have a devotion to Mary… I pray the Rosary and have made my Total Consecration (De Montfort). She is very special to me. But I’ve always thought the Church teaches that she is a creature, a human… not someone who existed eternally with God… and I don’t know, maybe He created her soul prior to creating her body, but in any case, she was created…

there are people who attribute the title “Sophia” to her, and believe that she co-created the world together with Jesus (the “Logos”), and they cite Greek Orthodox authors for this… but how can this be?

who knows, MAYBE Our Lady was created before the world was created, - though I’m having difficulty with this too, but that seems to be more like what the Little Office is saying - but still, it does say that she was created… and not part of the Trinity or eternal.

can someone please inform me of the Catholic teaching thanks.

 

[Monica4316]

Also, in “The Glorious Childhood of the Most Holy Mother of God” by St. John Eudes, he says that Mary would only be fully known to us in Heaven, and we are not ready for this knowledge now… and St Louis de Montfort said that “True Devotion” was not revealed earlier cause people would either reject it or misunderstand and start worshipping Mary as a goddess, when really she leads us to Jesus. So I’m sure there’s much more to Mary than we know

but I do think it’s very important that however we view Mary, that we remember she leads us closer to Jesus… that’s one problem I have with the idea that Mary has always existed, because that makes her equal to Him and part of the Trinity, but she is not… I think that Mary was also created, but at what point, I do not know. Certainly now she is in eternity, and she is second only to God.

I think it is right to just stay with the teachings of the Church, and if God wants us to ever know more about Mary, He will show the whole Church… and maybe some things, He would reveal only in Heaven.

any thoughts?

 

[Monica4316]

I also wanted to say… I feel that it is humble and like Mary to accept that I personally don’t know everything but will not seek out knowledge but will humbly wait for God to show me more. and also it is humble to stay with the teachings of the Church… so that is what I want to do. I’m just confused about that part from the Little Office… do you know if it’s referring to Jesus or Mary? if anyone can give me any info on that, that would be great

God bless.

 

[stuart12]

Maybe the passages just refer to Christ? The Little Office is made up of psalms is it not?

Mary was created in time, but before the creation of the cosmos.

 

[Monica4316]

Maybe the passages just refer to Christ? The Little Office is made up of psalms is it not?

yes, it is…

Mary was created in time, but before the creation of the cosmos.

is this Church teaching? how come I’ve never heard of this before… is it commonly known, and a doctrine? or is it a speculation?

to be honest, all this is making me feel like the faith I’ve always believed in is somehow wrong, and that I don’t know God at all if it’s Church teaching that Mary was created before the world, I’ll accept it… but does this take away from her being human? where is this idea from?

thank you

 

[stuart12]

Creation can only take place in time, as time implies change. If she exists from all eternity, she would have been uncreated, and therefore God. Which is false. Mary was definately created in time.

This is Church teaching.

 

[Monica4316]

Creation can only take place in time, as time implies change. If she exists from all eternity, she would have been uncreated, and therefore God. Which is false. Mary was definately created in time.

This is Church teaching.

oh I agree with that, I meant - what do you mean by saying that Mary was created before the cosmos? is that Church teaching also? that’s the part I find confusing…

 

[stuart12]

oh I agree with that, I meant - what do you mean by saying that Mary was created before the cosmos? is that Church teaching also? that’s the part I find confusing…

Sorry, I have just realised my typo. I meant Mary was created in time, *not *before the cosmos.

 

[Monica4316]

Sorry, I have just realised my typo. I meant Mary was created in time, *not *before the cosmos.

oh okay! thanks… so that’s what I believe too… but it seems there are people who are saying otherwise, and that’s making me confused. I think I’ll just focus on the Church teaching and leave everything else up to God.

 

[Monica4316]

Okay so I prayed about this… and I really feel that Mary, the Mary that I know, is a human being, and that what the Church says about her is right. I’ve always felt like there is more to her that we don’t know about, but that concerns who she is by God’s grace, whereas by nature she is human. We know that she was conceived in a special way, without original sin, and I’m sure there’s much that is very special about her and God’s plan for her… and much that we will only know in Heaven… and I don’t believe that Mary is like us, but neither is she a goddess. God would not tell the Church something that is false.

St John Eudes calls Mary “eldest Daughter of the Eternal Father”, but I think what he means is that she’s His first daughter in the New Covenant - before we all became God’s children through grace.

I think that Mary has been raised to such glory by grace, not by nature… am I correct here? Maybe, as St John Eudes says, the Church has not been shown the extent of her glory and her true person, because we’re not ready for it… but it was still given to her by grace. Mary being filled with grace is at the very center of the Incarnation and thus our Redemption. There are people who believe that Mary is like a goddess, or a manifestation of God, and the Church has not been shown this because human beings are not ready for this knowledge, but if the Church is not ready, how can anyone else be ready (those who initially wrote about these ideas)? Also, - there was an early Church heresy called Collyridianism that was very similar… when I think of Mary being a human, like what we believe, I feel peace and clarity of mind, and I feel this is the Mary that I know. So I think I’ll just keep on believing that, and the rest is up to God.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Monica Hi.

I can understand your concern. I don’t want to exaggerate the glories of Mary either. God help us.

I am sure that we are taught that the Immaculate Soul of our Blessed Mother, was created without original sin. Created. We know the names of her parents. Joachim and Anna. Ecclesiasticus 24 is undertstandably applied to Our Lady. There are a couple of feasts for Our Lady in the old calendar that use this same chapter. The Messianic Psalms, when they can’t apply to Christ, always have a meaning associated with the human author. But the Church has traditionally understood many of them to be prophetic of our Lord. It seems probable that Jesus Himself referred to these Psalms when He spoke to the disciples on the Road to Emmaus. In them, the human author David, sometimes speaks of his sins. Jesus did not sin, but they stil apply to Him, since He took our sin upon us. The references to uncreated wisdom are not primary references to Mary, but she adopted wisdom, and is not lacking in wisdom. She is the human personification of this attribute, but she wasn’t present in her body and soul eternally, even though she was known to God eternally. But so are we.

My point is that the Church cannot escape seeing an anticipation of Mary in these passages which point to the glory of wisdom. Wisdom is even spoken of in the Old Testament as with a feminine gender. Every particular of these passages do not necessarily apply to our Lady. She is the most exalted of all creatures, Queen of Heaven and Earth, as we are taught in the Holy Rosary. We probably fail to grasp how wonderful she is. But we know that she is not eternal God.

I hope this helps. I have stumbled a bit with this passage myself and that is how I reconcile it with the teachings of the Church as I understand them.

Rory