Very much disappointed

  • Thread starter Thread starter Trurl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
While it may be true that
  1. God is sovereign, that is God is under no “obligation” to create or not to create someone, and
  2. God knows with infallible certainty what the fate of the created person would be.
It is also true that God cannot know with infallible certainty the fate of any created person (given free will) until “after” the created person is actually created.

Another consideration that adds lights to the apparently “tight” argument is that a “person” may not be the kind of thing that God can create "all at once." The creative action of God may be, given free will and the nature of personhood, a cooperative effort between God and the person. So God does not, in the case of a person with free will, finish creating the individual until the individual himself or herself is finished creating. Creation in this sense is a cooperative act and not complete until both parties have finished their own role in the creation. So God would not know with infallible certainty the fate of the created person until after this kind of creation (involving the (name removed by moderator)ut of both parties) was actually complete, i.e., when both parties have completed doing their part.
 
While it may be true that
  1. God is sovereign, that is God is under no “obligation” to create or not to create someone, and
  2. God knows with infallible certainty what the fate of the created person would be.
It is also true that God cannot know with infallible certainty the fate of any created person (given free will) until “after” the created person is actually created.

Another consideration that adds lights to the apparently “tight” argument is that a “person” may not be the kind of thing that God can create "all at once." The creative action of God may be, given free will and the nature of personhood, a cooperative effort between God and the person. So God does not, in the case of a person with free will, finish creating the individual until the individual himself or herself is finished creating. Creation in this sense is a cooperative act and not complete until both parties have finished their own role in the creation. So God would not know with infallible certainty the fate of the created person until after this kind of creation (involving the (name removed by moderator)ut of both parties) was actually complete, i.e., when both parties have completed doing their part.
Are you aware that if GOD does not know what choices people are going to make…then God is not all knowing.

It God is not all knowing, why call him God?
 
Are you aware that if GOD does not know what choices people are going to make…then God is not all knowing.

It God is not all knowing, why call him God?
It would seem nonsensical to claim that God not knowing what does not exist to be known is a shortcoming of his, just as it is nonsensical to claim that God should do what he does not do or that he should know what he does not know are both shortcomings.
 
My friend if you wish to use reason and logic, then you had better drop this whole “religion-thingie”.
What religion thingie and why?
But for a faithful catholic it is unquestionable that 1) God is sovereign, that is God is under no “obligation” to create or not to create someone,
That is true in a general and strictly logical sense. However, God cannot be selfish. Therefore the absolute annihilation of a human being from existence, on the bases that he would choose mortal sin over love, is not possible because it is not the act of a loving being.
and 2) God knows with infallible certainty what the fate of the created person would be.
Only if he has created the person. Gods knowledge is simultaneous with his creative act.
“Love of the Creator”? You gotta be kidding. Last time I checked, “agape” (or divine love) is acting in the best interest of the loved one. If you think that “being tortured forever” is in the best interest of this hypothetical person, then I will have to ask you to leave me alone, because I am not interested in that level of irrationality.
I never said it is in the best interest for a human being to be tortured. But it is in the best interest of a human being to have freewill. A human being has a choice to be eternally happy in God, or be eternally outside of Gods grace and therefore forfeiting heaven (heaven is the beatific vision of God). If heaven is defined by our relationship with God, then being out side of God necessitates the fact that some human beings will not experience the beatific vision, and it is this lack of experience that is itself the definition of hell. It is not a core teaching of the catholic faith that God tortures people in hell. If people suffer in hell it is because they don’t have a relationship with God. Their suffering is a natural consequence of that fact rather than an artificially imposed punishment.
And, by the way, I vehemently deny that unbridled freedom of choice has any value at all. In my opinion it is dumbest option for any creator.
Then i guess enslaving people and forcing there every move and choice is what you call love. But that’s your opinion, an opinion that you have failed to back up logically.

I tell you what, I will do you a favor and not reply to you anymore because i vehemently reject fascism in any form.
 
I am arguing on the basis of classical theism which declares that God knows everything that happens, happened and will happen, but also the “variants” of what “would happen, if…”. You can look it up in the dogmas, if you don’t believe me (here, under I.27, I.28 and I.29). As such it is perfectly reasonable to assume that God is aware of the “possible future of the person about to be created”.
The question “Why doesn’t God just not create anyone who would choose to be eternally separated from him?” might seem plausible in the abstract, but we don’t live in the abstract. We live in a world of people, with a plethora of interconnected relationships and interactions which affect our decisions. Salvation is a process, not a one time event. It’s all about what we make ourselves to be oriented toward by the end of our lives. That process doesn’t take place in a vacuum. We are individuals, yes, but we exist within a larger society. Even a hermit exists within and is aware of the society around him, no matter how little he permits it to impact his life. The mere fact that it exists means it has at least some impact.

Take that abstract statement and make it about people rather than abstract numbers. For one, people don’t magically pop into existence. Each and every human person is a body/soul unity, brought into existence in a cooperative act of creation between a man, a woman, and God. The matter for the body is provided by the man and woman. The immortal soul is created directly by God. God creates our immortal soul only when our parents first create the body. If God deliberately withholds the immortal soul from an already created body, do you honestly think there are zero repercussions?

That aside, let’s just consider it from the standpoint of interconnected relationships. What if a particular couple would normally remain faithful at the end of their lives and die with hearts oriented toward charity, but all the children they conceive will turn from God and die without charity in their hearts. If God actively denies that couple children, and one or both of them lose their faith because they are unable to have children and end up dying apart from God because of that, does that mean God must now not create them as well? If he passively permits all involved to make their own choices, then any guilt for wrong choices belongs to the person making the choice. If he actively intervenes and even one person has their choice made, not freely, but as a consequences of God’s direct action, then God has now assumed responsibility for that person’s choice. They would be in hell not because they chose it freely, but because God manipulated the situation such that they chose it.

Let’s consider the potential grandchildren of this couple as well. If any of the grandchildren are destined for heaven if God permits their hellbound parents to be created, then by refusing to create their parents, God has actively NOT created a person who would be in heaven. He has denied the existence of someone who would freely choose to spend eternity in heaven, simply because you don’t want him to make someone who will freely choose to spend eternity in hell. If that person spent eternity in hell because of God’s direct action, you would have a point. But to deny existence and eternal bliss to one being because of another being’s freely-chosen action?

Let’s consider two brothers, one of whom will die faithful and one of whom will die in unrepentant sin. What if the ONLY thing leading the faithful brother to remain faithful is his sinful brother? What if he needs the challenge of his brother to remain strong in his faith, and without that challenge he will fall into sin himself? If God prevents his brother from existing, then God has not passively permitted one brother to choose heaven and one brother to choose hell, but actively decided that the now only brother will be in hell. Does God now have to not create him as well?

If God begins unraveling the interconnected threads of human relationships and pruning out those destined for hell instead of letting things unfold as we will it, will there be any left who are destined for heaven? We meddle in things we do not fully understand at our peril. Assuming that changing A, B, and C will not have negative consequences for J, K, and L, when there’s no possible way for us to know that with our limited knowledge, is the height of hubris. Perhaps the instances of God intervening in human affairs are so rare because it’s only rarely that He is able to do so without directly sending a person to hell. Perhaps we shouldn’t blithely assume that, because we wish it to be so, God can tinker with things over here and cause no negative effect on things over there. Do we really have the all-encompassing perspective necessary to make such a statement with authority?

All of that aside, Christ answers the very question you ask in Matthew 13:24-30 with the parable of wheat and tares:

He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, “First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

So there you have it. The best of intentions can bring about the worst of results.
 
That is true in a general and strictly logical sense. However, God cannot be selfish. Therefore the absolute annihilation of a human being from existence, on the bases that he would choose mortal sin over love, is not possible because it is not the act of a loving being.
Not creating someone is different from “annihilation”. Elementary, my dear Watson.
Only if he has created the person. Gods knowledge is simultaneous with his creative act.
If you reject the traditional theism, there is nothing to talk about. Read the dogmas, especially I.27, I.28 and I.29.
I never said it is in the best interest for a human being to be tortured. But it is in the best interest of a human being to have freewill.
That is simply a subjective opinion, which is not substantiated.
It is not a core teaching of the catholic faith that God tortures people in hell.
I am not aware that there is a “core teaching” about hell at all.
Then i guess enslaving people and forcing there every move and choice is what you call love. But that’s your opinion, an opinion that you have failed to back up logically.
That is not what I am saying or advocating. It looks like that you either failed to read or failed to comprehend the cruical words “UNBRIDLED FREEDOM”. Limited freedom is not slavery. But if that is too much for you, then I will be better off being spared of your (name removed by moderator)ut.
I tell you what, I will do you a favor and not reply to you anymore because i vehemently reject fascism in any form.
Whatever.
 
Each and every human person is a body/soul unity, brought into existence in a cooperative act of creation between a man, a woman, and God. The matter for the body is provided by the man and woman. The immortal soul is created directly by God. God creates our immortal soul only when our parents first create the body. If God deliberately withholds the immortal soul from an already created body, do you honestly think there are zero repercussions?
So what? Either it will be just another failed attempt to conceive… of which dime a dozen. Or do you think that God is limited to “infuse” that body with one particular “soul”? God can choose whichever “soul” he wants to use, and surely there are infinitely many “souls” , which will glady and happily embrace God.

You are making things overly complicated. Just stick to the “KISS” principle. When a conception occurs, God is free to choose which “soul” is to be used. According to classical theism (and the catechism and the dogmas) God can foresee the outcome of any action before it is performed. As such God can choose any outcome without infringing upon the free will of the agents. As long as no logical contradiction occurs, God can instantiate any state of affairs.
 
So what? Either it will be just another failed attempt to conceive… of which dime a dozen. Or do you think that God is limited to “infuse” that body with one particular “soul”? God can choose whichever “soul” he wants to use, and surely there are infinitely many “souls” , which will glady and happily embrace God.
N
You are making things overly complicated. Just stick to the “KISS” principle. When a conception occurs, God is free to choose which “soul” is to be used. According to classical theism (and the catechism and the dogmas) God can foresee the outcome of any action before it is performed. As such God can choose any outcome without infringing upon the free will of the agents. As long as no logical contradiction occurs, God can instantiate any state of affairs.
You are a very patient person.

Many seem to get ignore everything you write.
 
You are a very patient person.

Many seem to get ignore everything you write.
Thanks 🙂 . Patient I am. Comes with age, too, even though I have been patient all my life. Of course they ignore it. If they would read it, it would be disastruous to their peace of mind.
 
This probably doesn’t help but I’ll toss it out anyway. (I didn’t read all posts so maybe it has been addressed already).

An answer that is perhaps satisfying, may be contingent on ones concept of hell. The fire and brimstone hell is not necesarily the hell we must adhere to. Just what constitutes hell is not very well defined. Therefore we are free to do a certain amount of assuming I believe. C.S.Lewis certainly had am interesting concept of hell. If you haven’t already you might want to read his book The Great Divorce. It is a short read.

In Lewis’s hell poeple are given an opportunity to leave. In fact they do leave, only to desire to return. Thier hell is, in a way, of their own making. I won’t attempt to describe the book because if I did I would not do it justice.

We as catholics do not judge, we leave that to God. We cannot read people hearts. However I see certain personalities, who in their apparent present state of being, seem to be a poor fit for heaven. Their hate, or their desire for pleasure over all else, are traits that would not make them happy in heaven. Perhaps hell is just an eternity of what they seem to aspire to. Void of the things we learn are things of heaven such as humility, concern of others before ourselves, Love of God above all else. Some people perhaps do not want these things, and they get what ask for.
 
So what? Either it will be just another failed attempt to conceive… of which dime a dozen. Or do you think that God is limited to “infuse” that body with one particular “soul”? God can choose whichever “soul” he wants to use, and surely there are infinitely many “souls” , which will glady and happily embrace God.
N
You are making things overly complicated. Just stick to the “KISS” principle. When a conception occurs, God is free to choose which “soul” is to be used. According to classical theism (and the catechism and the dogmas) God can foresee the outcome of any action before it is performed. As such God can choose any outcome without infringing upon the free will of the agents. As long as no logical contradiction occurs, God can instantiate any state of affairs.
Duplicate
 
Hi again Turl, I continue to pray for you, may the Holy Spirit give you wisdom.

Prov. 14:15-18
15 The simple believes every word, but the prudent considers well his steps. 16 A wise man fears and departs from evil, but a fool rages and is self-confident. 17 A quick-tempered man acts foolishly, and a man of wicked intentions is hated. 18 The simple inherit folly, but the prudent are crowned with knowledge.

“‘For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways,’ says the Lord. ‘For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’” (Isaiah 55:8-9).

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which have been revealed belong to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law” (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Vistonas Wu brought out this argument before, it holds no water skeptics will rant and rave about how can God be loving if people will go to hell. The point is he Loves YOU enough to let you make that decision.

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it” -C.S. Lewis

God dose not show partiality, rather he gives you and everyone else the opportunity to choose heaven.

Would it be fair for God not to create a person, and thereby deprive that person of the same opportunities and chances as other people, simply because God knew that person would choose hell?

I continue to pray for you my friend
 
God can choose whichever “soul” he wants to use, and surely there are infinitely many “souls” , which will glady and happily embrace God.
If a person is good because God made them to be good instead of them choosing on their own to be good, then that person has no free will.
 
If a person is good because God made them to be good instead of them choosing on their own to be good, then that person has no free will.
You are absolutely missing the point.

God knows everything.

God knows when he brings a soul into existence where that soul will end up upon physical death.

God already knows that soul A will love him and will make it to heaven.

God already knows that soul B will reject him and will go to hell.

Despite God knowing this, he still creates soul B.

If God refused to bring soul B into existence, hell should be empty of souls.

Soul A still has choice, but God already knows they will choose him.

Soul B does not need to exist in order for soul A to choose God.

You understand now?
 
Would it be fair to deny Soul B’s the opportunity to make the choice?
 
…That is what classical theism says. Of course you are free to dispute this “teaching”, and risk to become a heretic… that is your option. But for a faithful catholic it is unquestionable that 1) God is sovereign, that is God is under no “obligation” to create or not to create someone, and 2) God knows with infallible certainty what the fate of the created person would be.
“Love of the Creator”? You gotta be kidding. Last time I checked, “agape” (or divine love) is acting in the best interest of the loved one. If you think that “being tortured forever” is in the best interest of this hypothetical person, then I will have to ask you to leave me alone, because I am not interested in that level of irrationality.
Actually, we put ourselves in hell. Those who go there do so because they hate God. And because they hate God, he puts them where they want to be. The punishment of hell really consists in living forever with all those other " lovely " creatures who hated God as well. Just think how much fun that will be. And of course the Demons will be the eternal rulers of that kingdom. Oh, I forgot, you don’t believe in God. Maybe there is nothing to worry about for non-believers?

You seem to have a great deal of trouble saying anything without insults. However, no one is " bothering " you. You came to this site of your own will. You asked our opinion and we have given it.
And, by the way, I vehemently deny that unbridled freedom of choice has any value at all. In my opinion it is dumbest option for any creator. But this is not relevant in this case.
Gee, there you go again. " …dumbest option…" my, my.
But you said God doesn’t exist. So why get all worked up? If he doesn’t exist it is up to you to fix things. Now, how are you going to do that? How are you going to make the world better? How are you going correct our failure to understand the real world?

😃
 
You are absolutely missing the point.

God knows everything.

God knows when he brings a soul into existence where that soul will end up upon physical death.

God already knows that soul A will love him and will make it to heaven.

God already knows that soul B will reject him and will go to hell.

Despite God knowing this, he still creates soul B.

If God refused to bring soul B into existence, hell should be empty of souls.

Soul A still has choice, but God already knows they will choose him.

Soul B does not need to exist in order for soul A to choose God.

You understand now?
Hi yunat, I’m sorry, but your argument is circular. Your conclusion is if God is a loving God there would be no hell.God is a just God, to himself.That is like asking why did God Create the Universe? God created man with his image and likeness. Inside every person is his light of love,.God created us out of love of himself.We are unique to all other creatures on this planet with that knowledge. God did not create robots, that would only choose him, other wise, no free will to love God back. God always gives us away out, to avoid hell.Hell was not created for man, it was created for Angels, that went against God, and what God created.Those that fell, were envious of man,because Man, was created in the image of God(Man’s Spirit or soul). Actually, in Hebrew, we are speaking spirits(souls). Even with the first set of parents, God created, he gave them an option, the Tree of knowledge of good and evil, or the Tree of Life. They chose, to have worldly wisdom, instead of the Wisdom of God,God’s love. Further, the first parents, blamed God, instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. That is the same Logic you imply here.Don’t create some thing, if you already know, what it is going to do.Humans, still create some thing even though, they know what it will do. God puts his light in every person, it is up to them to choose.Even when they don’t, he continuously tries to draws them, to his love through God’s Spirit.It is Man, who chooses to follow the fallen, and his choice then is hell. God must be just, to himself, otherwise he would not be God.We are created for Love,but it is our chose, to follow that love.We are not robots forced into love.
God Bless You and God’s Spirit enlighten you
 
While it may be true that
  1. God is sovereign, that is God is under no “obligation” to create or not to create someone, and
  2. God knows with infallible certainty what the fate of the created person would be.
It is also true that God cannot know with infallible certainty the fate of any created person (given free will) until “after” the created person is actually created.
Wrong. God knew us before he created us and knew our future acts as well and our eternal destiny.
Another consideration that adds lights to the apparently “tight” argument is that a “person” may not be the kind of thing that God can create "all at once." The creative action of God may be, given free will and the nature of personhood, a cooperative effort between God and the person. So God does not, in the case of a person with free will, finish creating the individual until the individual himself or herself is finished creating. Creation in this sense is a cooperative act and not complete until both parties have finished their own role in the creation. So God would not know with infallible certainty the fate of the created person until after this kind of creation (involving the (name removed by moderator)ut of both parties) was actually complete, i.e., when both parties have completed doing their part.
We do not participate in God’s creative act of ourselves or of anything else. God creates and is the primary moving/changing, sustaining, directing, ordering, final cause of all things. Men and other created beings are seconday causes. We can produce things from prior existing matter, we can move prior existing matter to certain ends but we are not the primary causes of anything. 👍
 
You are absolutely missing the point.

God knows everything.

God knows when he brings a soul into existence where that soul will end up upon physical death.

God already knows that soul A will love him and will make it to heaven.

God already knows that soul B will reject him and will go to hell.

Despite God knowing this, he still creates soul B.

If God refused to bring soul B into existence, hell should be empty of souls.

Soul A still has choice, but God already knows they will choose him.

Soul B does not need to exist in order for soul A to choose God.

You understand now?
I understand the point you and Trurl are arguing; I simply disagree with it.

Your focus is completely on Soul A without any thought for the consequences of God not creating Soul B. You assume there are no negative consequences to God not creating a soul when people engage in the act of procreation according to how He created it to be and conception takes place. You assume that all people live in a causal vacuum, with no one’s choices being made based on the influence of others. You assign blame to God for actions freely chosen by Soul B without the direct influence of God. By doing so, you redefine free will while insisting that you’re not actually redefining free will. You also act as if God can go against His nature and still be God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top