Very Odd Examination of Conscience Aid

[Chiltepin]

I picked up a little booklet for preparing for a good confession. I like it, as it is more thorough than the one I have. The booklet has an Imprimatur and appears to be trustworthy. There are two things that struck me as very odd listed in the mortal sin section.

1. “Transvestitism or cross-dressing”
2. “Playing Dungeons & Dragons or similar games”

Does it seem odd to anyone that these would be classified as mortal sins?

I’m not concerned about myself as I am not involved in either of those activities, but listing those as outright mortal sins struck me as peculiar.

I guess I can see how either could become an excess or obcession. Maybe the cross dressing is fetishy or disordered? Is the Dungeons and Dragons thing supposed to be like Wicca or Ouiji board stuff? I guess I don’t know enough about the game.

Can anyone explain why these would be mortal sins?

 

[Melissa]

As for the second item, yes, it does seem to be incorrectly classified as a sin at all (let alone a mortal sin). Dungeons & Dragons is a game which has nothing to do with the occult, wicca, ouija boards, or other such objectionable things. It is a fantasy game with outcomes governed by dice (and a few other elements, like a character class). The only sin that can arise directly from D&D (or GURPS or any other rule-set) is the same sin which can arise from any other licit hobby: imprudent spending of time or money (such that one is neglecting one’s duties and/or spending on hobby-related materials what should have been spent on needs).

I would suppose that it is the inherently disordered nature of cross-dressing that brings it to the list, but it’s not something that I’ve given a great deal of thought to.

 

[Marshchild]

I, too, think the inclusion of both those things is very odd, particularly the first one. I find it faintly ludicrous, in fact, that the wearing of the opposite sex’s clothes should be considered automatically disordered or sinful (never mind seriously sinful) given that the classification of clothes into “men’s” and “women’s” is an inherently arbitrary affair, based on fashion, cultural norms and other fickle things that are ultimately the province of Man not God.

 

[Chiltepin]

As for the second item, yes, it does seem to be incorrectly classified as a sin at all (let alone a mortal sin). Dungeons & Dragons is a game which has nothing to do with the occult, wicca, ouija boards, or other such objectionable things. It is a fantasy game with outcomes governed by dice (and a few other elements, like a character class). The only sin that can arise directly from D&D (or GURPS or any other rule-set) is the same sin which can arise from any other licit hobby: imprudent spending of time or money (such that one is neglecting one’s duties and/or spending on hobby-related materials what should have been spent on needs).

I talked to a friend about what is actually involved in the game. It doesn’t seem much different than all the pretending that goes on at a murder mystery dinner. Maybe whoever wrote it had an encounter with a person whose interest in the game led them to serious sin.

given that the classification of clothes into “men’s” and “women’s” is an inherently arbitrary affair, based on fashion, cultural norms and other fickle things that are ultimately the province of Man not God.

Well said. I thought maybe I am just too much a product of the modern world to see what was grave about it, that or too much of a high school sociology teacher to see what was wrong with it!

My best guess here is that they are pulling from the old testament on forbidding that behavior. I suppose there is a certain kind of Catholic femininity and masculinately that could be deliberately upset by habitual cross dressing in the same way that it is upset by immodesty.

Thank you both for responding and verifying that I am not crazy to have found those out of place. I guess the next question is what does it mean that said booklet has the Imprimatur?

 

[Bluegoat]

The reason cross-dressing might be included is that it is considered sinful to try to actually pass oneself off as a member of the opposite sex, in a way that either denies or warps the idea of sexuality that God has given us. It doesn’t mean a woman in jeans is cross-dressing, or even some man dressed up as a woman but clearly to all a man.

But transvestism is a bit complicated, in that in most cases the person is not actually trying to pass himself of as the opposite sex.

The D&D one is totally strange. I find the inclusion of cross-dressing a bit odd, just because it’s not terribly common and it’s sinfulness would depend a lot on the context.

 

[Marshchild]

…or even some man dressed up as a woman but clearly to all a man.

Like Eddie Izzard?

 

[tjm190]

1. We are judged by God’s standards, not our culture’s with respect to clothing.
2. If there is a possible justification for this, I can’t think of it.

 

[thistle]

I picked up a little booklet for preparing for a good confession. I like it, as it is more thorough than the one I have. The booklet has an Imprimatur and appears to be trustworthy. There are two things that struck me as very odd listed in the mortal sin section.

1. “Transvestitism or cross-dressing”
2. “Playing Dungeons & Dragons or similar games”

Does it seem odd to anyone that these would be classified as mortal sins?

I’m not concerned about myself as I am not involved in either of those activities, but listing those as outright mortal sins struck me as peculiar.

I guess I can see how either could become an excess or obcession. Maybe the cross dressing is fetishy or disordered? Is the Dungeons and Dragons thing supposed to be like Wicca or Ouiji board stuff? I guess I don’t know enough about the game.

Can anyone explain why these would be mortal sins?

Cross dressing is a grave sin and is specifically mentioned in Scripture.

Deut 22:5
"A woman shall not wear an article proper to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s dress; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.

 

[ForwardProgress]

D&D when it first came out was kind of scandalous to Christianity. I was told in the 80s that I had to avoid it, as it was a satanic or demonic game. This was the attitude of most parents and the Church at the time…it had to do with the ‘magic’ involved while playing it.

Those of you who got into it in the 90s fail to see it this way, cause the way we view things like that has changed SO much since then.

 

[Melissa]

D&D when it first came out was kind of scandalous to Christianity. I was told in the 80s that I had to avoid it, as it was a satanic or demonic game. This was the attitude of most parents and the Church at the time…it had to do with the ‘magic’ involved while playing it.

Those of you who got into it in the 90s fail to see it this way, cause the way we view things like that has changed SO much since then.

Actually, I’ve been playing since '83, and a friend of mine who has played even longer actually once played at the table of the great EGG himself.

Anyone who actually cracked the covers of the rule books could easily discover, as my own parents did, that the “magic” and “deities” were simple game components no different than the “sword” wielded by other character classes. (And all substantially less real than the cap guns wielded by the kids playing cops & robbers outside.)

 

[Secret_Square]

Genuine cross-dressing or transvestism is done either to decieve others into thinking one is of the opposite sex, or for the sexual gratification of oneself or others; in either case it would be a serious sin.

Playing D&D, on the other hand, is not a sin. D&D is a role playing game with elements of both skill and chance. If D&D is sinful because some elements of the game involve pretend magic, then it would be equally wrong to play Clue (because it involves simulated murder), Risk (because it involves war), or Monopoly (because it involves avarice or greed.)

 

[StrawberryJam]

I picked up a little booklet for preparing for a good confession. I like it, as it is more thorough than the one I have. The booklet has an Imprimatur and appears to be trustworthy. There are two things that struck me as very odd listed in the mortal sin section.

1. “Transvestitism or cross-dressing”
2. “Playing Dungeons & Dragons or similar games”

Does it seem odd to anyone that these would be classified as mortal sins?

I’m not concerned about myself as I am not involved in either of those activities, but listing those as outright mortal sins struck me as peculiar.

I guess I can see how either could become an excess or obcession. Maybe the cross dressing is fetishy or disordered? Is the Dungeons and Dragons thing supposed to be like Wicca or Ouiji board stuff? I guess I don’t know enough about the game.

Can anyone explain why these would be mortal sins?

Who published this booklet? And, yes it sounds odd.

Must be a reason why it does. An appearance of being trustworthy, does not mean it is.

 

[Chiltepin]

Who published this booklet? And, yes it sounds odd.

Leaflet Missal Company
Text By: Fr. Robert Altier
Nihil Obstat: Richard J. Schuler Censor Deputatus
Imprimatur: Harry J. Flynn, D.D. Archbishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis

 

[Marshchild]

Cross dressing is a grave sin and is specifically mentioned in Scripture.

Deut 22:5
"A woman shall not wear an article proper to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s dress; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.

Well, given that that command appears in a part of the Bible that also orders people to stone to death disobedient children and anyone who does any kind of manual labour on the Sabbath; decrees that rapists be compelled to marry their victims and never divorce them (that is, of course, if one or both parties haven’t been deemed deserving of a good stoning themselves); and condemns as “unclean” many normal bodily functions, I’m not sure how applicable it is nowadays (it certainly seems to have been thrown out the window with regards to women donning male apparel). In any case, the fundamental problem remains that it’s ultimately other humans who decide what clothing qualifies as “men’s” and what qualifies as “women’s”, and that ideas about this have changed dramatically over the ages, as well as from culture to culture. Whose standards are we to be bound by?

D&D when it first came out was kind of scandalous to Christianity. I was told in the 80s that I had to avoid it, as it was a satanic or demonic game. This was the attitude of most parents and the Church at the time…it had to do with the ‘magic’ involved while playing it.

Those of you who got into it in the 90s fail to see it this way, cause the way we view things like that has changed SO much since then.

As a child of the '80s, I well remember the hysteria that erupted over D&D; my own parents were a bit concerned about the fact I had something of an “Idiot’s Guide” on the subject entitled What is Dungeons and Dragons?. (Un)fortunately, any budding enthusiasm for the game that this book may have instilled in me was pretty much killed FOR ALL TIME TO COME by my playing my first-ever game with arguably THE WORLD’S WORST DUNGEON MASTER. I was much more into things like Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks. Anyone remember those?

Genuine cross-dressing or transvestism is done either to decieve others into thinking one is of the opposite sex, or for the sexual gratification of oneself or others; in either case it would be a serious sin.

Playing D&D, on the other hand, is not a sin. D&D is a role playing game with elements of both skill and chance. If D&D is sinful because some elements of the game involve pretend magic, then it would be equally wrong to play Clue (because it involves simulated murder), Risk (because it involves war), or Monopoly (because it involves avarice or greed.)

I’m guessing the first thing wouldn’t apply in those cases in which someone was cross-dressing for entertainment purposes, and in which it was known that they weren’t really of the sex they were pretending to be.

As for games that could be considered “wrong” because they involve “simulated sin”, one I can think of, and which I played quite a bit some years ago, was a World War II board game entitled Axis and Allies. The “problem” with that one, of course, was that someone had to play the evil Axis powers.

 

[Pray4Life]

This is the exact same examination of conscience that probably scarred me for life where my scruples are concerned. On the one hand, yes, it’s very thorough and it did clear up some things for me quite well. On the other, there’s the indictment against role-playing games (I had a confessor who was a Baldur’s Gate fan and was at that one ), the blanket charge of all copyright infringement being mortal sin (one too many paragraphs quoted to qualify as “fair use?” Hope you wanted your eternity set to “extra crispy!”), I believe “wastefulness” or something like that is on there as a mortal sin as well…making me fear for my immortal soul at the time for throwing away toiletries that had not been used to the last drop. My understanding is that an imprimatur means that there’s nothing contrary to Church doctrine contained therein, so I’d ASSUME (this is just my understanding, might be wrong) that if the Church HAS no established view on something, you could go either way and not be disqualified for where an Imprimatur is concerned. So far as I know, the Church has never made an official judgment call where role-playing games are concerned. I think if, on judgment day, the worst accusation that can be made against me is that I killed and looted fictional orcs, I’ll be in pretty good shape, all things considered.

 

[Marshchild]

This is the exact same examination of conscience that probably scarred me for life where my scruples are concerned. On the one hand, yes, it’s very thorough and it did clear up some things for me quite well. On the other, there’s the indictment against role-playing games (I had a confessor who was a Baldur’s Gate fan and was at that one ), the blanket charge of all copyright infringement being mortal sin (one too many paragraphs quoted to qualify as “fair use?” Hope you wanted your eternity set to “extra crispy!”), I believe “wastefulness” or something like that is on there as a mortal sin as well…making me fear for my immortal soul at the time for throwing away toiletries that had not been used to the last drop. My understanding is that an imprimatur means that there’s nothing contrary to Church doctrine contained therein, so I’d ASSUME (this is just my understanding, might be wrong) that if the Church HAS no established view on something, you could go either way and not be disqualified for where an Imprimatur is concerned. So far as I know, the Church has never made an official judgment call where role-playing games are concerned. I think if, on judgment day, the worst accusation that can be made against me is that I killed and looted fictional orcs, I’ll be in pretty good shape, all things considered.

Yeah, stuff like this can be distinctly unhelpful, I think. I’ve seen some lists of “mortal” sins like this, and after getting to the end of them, have wondered if there are any sins out there that actually do qualify merely as venial ones (or, for that matter, if there’s anything we do during our waking hours that doesn’t qualify as a sin full stop). Some people are a little too “trigger happy” when it comes to slapping the label of “mortal sin” on things, methinks. The one about “wastefulness” putting one’s soul in (im)mortal peril made me smile, as I contemplated all the things that could warrant condemnation for this reason. Using full-flush on your toilet when half-flush probably would have sufficed? Spending five or ten minutes doing nothing but just staring into space (something that can be quite pleasurable, I might add)? Not taking the bone from that T-bone steak you just ate and gnawing on it to make sure you clean every last little sliver of meat off it?

Another thing I’ve often seen appear on lists of sins (not necessarily Catholic ones) is “suspicion”. This also makes me roll my eyes, particularly when the religion that condemns such a thing is also one that preaches the inherent rottenness of human nature. So let me get this straight… My fellow man is a wretched creature whose blackened heart desires to do nothing but evil, yet if I don’t blindly trust him, I’m committing a grievous sin. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight… No, no, really! It makes perfect sense!

 

[Pray4Life]

Well I think being “unjustly suspicious” actually IS on Fr. Altier’s examination, if I remember correctly (I no longer have a copy!) but, the “unjustly” part makes sense to me. I was raised on Luther’s snow-covered dung heap analogy as a Protestant so that is a hard one for me as well, but Catholicism at least does teach that people are essentially good and we’re to assume the best of people unless there is ample reason to the contrary. So that one at least makes SOME sense, if you’re Catholic Otherwise, yeah, kind of odd- but then, the mortal/venial sin distinction tends to be entirely absent in much of non-Catholic Christianity.

 

[ElizabethPH]

D&D was classified as a venial sin in the little purple EoC.

It comes under the first commandment. I think it can become obsessive besides all the demons and such. I think whats ‘odd’ is playing such games.

 

[Marshchild]

Well I think being “unjustly suspicious” actually IS on Fr. Altier’s examination, if I remember correctly (I no longer have a copy!) but, the “unjustly” part makes sense to me. I was raised on Luther’s snow-covered dung heap analogy as a Protestant so that is a hard one for me as well, but Catholicism at least does teach that people are essentially good and we’re to assume the best of people unless there is ample reason to the contrary. So that one at least makes SOME sense, if you’re Catholic Otherwise, yeah, kind of odd- but then, the mortal/venial sin distinction tends to be entirely absent in much of non-Catholic Christianity.

Not having a Protestant background myself, I’ve never heard of the snow-covered dung heap analogy before, but I’m guessing it’d be akin to the whole “whitened sepulchre” thing. As for other faiths that seem to regard suspicion as automatically sinful, I’ve heard that Islam does; indeed, according to a book I read recently on Nigeria, there was a state in the Islamic north of that country which implemented sharia law some years back, and made suspicion (in the form of “distrust of one’s neighbours”) a criminal offence! (Other sins that became crimes were deceit (except when it was required to save one’s life) and gossip!)

 

[Bluegoat]

D&D was classified as a venial sin in the little purple EoC.

It comes under the first commandment. I think it can become obsessive besides all the demons and such. I think whats ‘odd’ is playing such games.

I think watching professional sports is odd and often obsessional. But rarely would it qualify as a venial or mortal sin.