Very specific Contraception / Vademecum...Question

[ilovestcharbel]

Hi

I would be ever so grateful if a more knowledgeable person than myself could help with this please:

At age 38, I am expecting baby #4 in a couple of weeks, over the moon about it and delighted to be able to enjoy the privilege and responsibility of motherhood once more. I am a devout Catholic now, wasn’t always, but my husband is not a man of faith though he respects my beliefs - provided I don’t shove them down his throat of course!

So my specific issue is this - I am due my baby by c-section which for medical reasons will be my 4th section. My consultant says I cannot try a natural birth due to the risks and also has advised no more children after this due to health risks to myself and baby.

I used NFP following my last 3rd section, but due to ovarian cysts and a changing cycle, I found I could only use the small window at the end of the cycle for relations with my husband to be absolutely sure I wouldn’t conceive in the first few months after surgery. I knew this left him feeling rejected and so soon just abandoned the NFP for the sake of our marriage, and by God’s grace I managed to avoid pregnancy until it was safe.

So here I am again worrying about what will happen after the birth of this child. NFP for me is not totally reliable, though I would be happy to continue with it but for the issue of the periods of abstinence putting a strain on our marriage. Another child would be wonderful - but my consultant and his team do not agree. I researched the Church’s position on this and see that something called Vademecum for Confessors - paragraph 13 partly applies to my situation but not quite:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=884781&highlight=nfp+%2B+spouse

Remember, you may not use the contraceptive. Nor may you use a condom, etc. It must be the spouse who wants to use it who in fact uses it.

At the moment it feels like my only option will be to discuss all of this with my spouse and knowing what his reaction will be, agree that we will have to use contraception following the birth of this baby, even though it will break my heart to do so. I am continually praying for my husband’s conversion by the way, but I know that once I explain all of this to him he will want to use contraception. Because I am anticipating this sin, it feels like I am already consenting to it, if that makes any sense and I don’t want to be in mortal sin, neither do I want to refuse the marriage act and put a strain on my marriage.

Sorry for the long post- can anyone advise please? My soul is very troubled over this.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

You should apply the section in the vadecum in consultation with your confessor. My own feeling is you should suggest complete abstinence to your spouse and allow him to make his own decision.

 

[Xantippe]

Hi

I would be ever so grateful if a more knowledgeable person than myself could help with this please:

At age 38, I am expecting baby #4 in a couple of weeks, over the moon about it and delighted to be able to enjoy the privilege and responsibility of motherhood once more. I am a devout Catholic now, wasn’t always, but my husband is not a man of faith though he respects my beliefs - provided I don’t shove them down his throat of course!

So my specific issue is this - I am due my baby by c-section which for medical reasons will be my 4th section. My consultant says I cannot try a natural birth due to the risks and also has advised no more children after this due to health risks to myself and baby.

I used NFP following my last 3rd section, but due to ovarian cysts and a changing cycle, I found I could only use the small window at the end of the cycle for relations with my husband to be absolutely sure I wouldn’t conceive in the first few months after surgery. I knew this left him feeling rejected and so soon just abandoned the NFP for the sake of our marriage, and by God’s grace I managed to avoid pregnancy until it was safe.

So here I am again worrying about what will happen after the birth of this child. NFP for me is not totally reliable, though I would be happy to continue with it but for the issue of the periods of abstinence putting a strain on our marriage. Another child would be wonderful - but my consultant and his team do not agree. I researched the Church’s position on this and see that something called Vademecum for Confessors - paragraph 13 partly applies to my situation but not quite:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=884781&highlight=nfp+%2B+spouse

At the moment it feels like my only option will be to discuss all of this with my spouse and knowing what his reaction will be, agree that we will have to use contraception following the birth of this baby, even though it will break my heart to do so. I am continually praying for my husband’s conversion by the way, but I know that once I explain all of this to him he will want to use contraception. Because I am anticipating this sin, it feels like I am already consenting to it, if that makes any sense and I don’t want to be in mortal sin, neither do I want to refuse the marriage act and put a strain on my marriage.

Sorry for the long post- can anyone advise please? My soul is very troubled over this.

If you are the one presenting the idea of contraception to your spouse, then it’s very much your idea. The Vademecum is for the benefit of spouses who do not wish to use contraception and who make it clear to their spouses that they do not want to use contraception, but whose spouses insist on it. It’s not an “option” the innocent spouse presents to the erring spouse, unless for instance the erring spouse is leaning on the innocent spouse to get an IUD or sterilization.

How about telling your husband that you want to use NFP, but that NFP requires two for effective use, and your motivation level is harmed by the fact that you feel that the abstinence is hurting your marriage and that you feel pressured? He may not realize he is pressuring you. Ask for his support in figuring out how to abstain while not harming your relationship and involve him with NFP as much as possible. Turn the chart over to him as much as you can.

Also, make very sure that he understands that this is a life and death issue, and that if he screws up, he could be left a widower with 4 or 5 children to take care of by himself. You need his help and his support, because a slip could literally kill you and your next baby.

If he is a normal, reasonable human being, he will take this in probably 1 of 2 ways:

1. He will help you with the NFP and start learning how not to pressure you against your better judgment.
2. He’ll get a vasectomy or use condoms.

But you don’t need to mention #2 to him as an option. He can figure that out for himself.

 

[Xantippe]

Depending on what your history has been, you may wish to consider abstinence during the postpartum period, short breastfeeding (in order to get your cycles back as soon as possible), and then a conservatory post-ovulatory NFP.

But get your husband on board. Do not be the gatekeeper–let him gatekeep.

 

[Miserissima]

1. Remain open to life. Continue to check your fertility throughout your irregular cycles.
2. Get an official diagnosis for PCOS. Consult with your confessor regarding “double effect.”
3. Go on the pill for PCOS. The principle of double effect would be in place. Double check this with your confessor.
4. Post partum, after starting the pill, abstain for three months so you’re sure your ovaries are totally suppressed, so as to not risk an abortion.
5. If you EVER feel mittleschmerts while on the pill, abstain until after your next cycle. This may happen longer than three or four months after you start the pill.

 

[Xantippe]

1. Remain open to life. Continue to check your fertility throughout your irregular cycles.
2. Get an official diagnosis for PCOS. Consult with your confessor regarding “double effect.”
3. Go on the pill for PCOS. The principle of double effect would be in place. Double check this with your confessor.
4. Post partum, after starting the pill, abstain for three months so you’re sure your ovaries are totally suppressed, so as to not risk an abortion.
5. If you EVER feel mittleschmerts while on the pill, abstain until after your next cycle. This may happen longer than three or four months after you start the pill.

Those are also very reasonable suggestions, although the OP might also want to talk to the National Catholic Bioethics Center for advice about appropriate protocols for the pill. It also might not be feasible to combine it with breastfeeding.

Best wishes!

 

[underacloud]

If you are the one presenting the idea of contraception to your spouse, then it’s very much your idea. The Vademecum is for the benefit of spouses who do not wish to use contraception and who make it clear to their spouses that they do not want to use contraception, but whose spouses insist on it. It’s not an “option” the innocent spouse presents to the erring spouse, unless for instance the erring spouse is leaning on the innocent spouse to get an IUD or sterilization.

…

If he is a normal, reasonable human being, he will take this in probably 1 of 2 ways:

1. He will help you with the NFP and start learning how not to pressure you against your better judgment.
2. He’ll get a vasectomy or use condoms.

But you don’t need to mention #2 to him as an option. He can figure that out for himself.

Yes, let him join the dots together on this. If you present the idea yourself, or deliberately lead him into it, then you are not free of culpability. But if the conversation quite naturally leads him to these conculsions, and he freely and independantly makes the choice to use contraception, then the principles of the vademecum will apply.

 

[underacloud]

1. Remain open to life. Continue to check your fertility throughout your irregular cycles.
2. Get an official diagnosis for PCOS. Consult with your confessor regarding “double effect.”
3. Go on the pill for PCOS. The principle of double effect would be in place. Double check this with your confessor.

The OP did mention cysts, but did not mention a medical need to seek treatment (eg pain relief). The OP cannot apply this logic as a way to deal with the issue raised in her post.

If there is an independant need for treatment, then yes this would apply, and would rather conveniently deal with the other issue at hand. Care would be needed to ensure the right motivation is driving the decision here.

 

[12345678]

To be blunt, there are no loopholes in the Church that allow you to do bad things without repercussions…

There is a reason the Vademecum for Confessors, is just that, for confessors.

I would suggest doing your best (praying, penance) and talk with your spouse. If you find yourself in a tough position after you have given it your best to lead your spouse to what is best for you and your marriage, then go to a good priest and talk with him. Depending on your situation at the time, you may or may not have good enough reason to go ahead with it if your spouse on his own decides to use condoms (which aren’t very reliable anyways) or a vasectomy (where you guys would have to abstain for a while anyway), but that is something on which you would need spiritual guidance.

As for the suggestion to get a diagnosis and go on the pill… that is not a good suggestion. First, you cannot give medical advice here (the pill isn’t even considered the best choice by all). Second, it isn’t about finding a doctor that will ok the pill for “other than contraception” reasons so you can use it for contraception!
The reason the pill can be ok sometimes is because when you evaluate the negative side effects of the pill against the positive intended effects of the medication, the positive ones are so much better that they justify the **unintended **negative. If you get a diagnosis of anything, it should be to work on healing that issue, not to be able to get a pass to use contraception!

With all that being said, ilovestcharbel, you are in a tough situation and I know it won’t be easy. Prayers for you, your little one on his/her way, and your marriage!

 

[Vico]

Hi

I would be ever so grateful if a more knowledgeable person than myself could help with this please:

At age 38, I am expecting baby #4 in a couple of weeks, over the moon about it and delighted to be able to enjoy the privilege and responsibility of motherhood once more. I am a devout Catholic now, wasn’t always, but my husband is not a man of faith though he respects my beliefs - provided I don’t shove them down his throat of course!

So my specific issue is this - I am due my baby by c-section which for medical reasons will be my 4th section. My consultant says I cannot try a natural birth due to the risks and also has advised no more children after this due to health risks to myself and baby.

I used NFP following my last 3rd section, but due to ovarian cysts and a changing cycle, I found I could only use the small window at the end of the cycle for relations with my husband to be absolutely sure I wouldn’t conceive in the first few months after surgery. I knew this left him feeling rejected and so soon just abandoned the NFP for the sake of our marriage, and by God’s grace I managed to avoid pregnancy until it was safe.

So here I am again worrying about what will happen after the birth of this child. NFP for me is not totally reliable, though I would be happy to continue with it but for the issue of the periods of abstinence putting a strain on our marriage. Another child would be wonderful - but my consultant and his team do not agree. I researched the Church’s position on this and see that something called Vademecum for Confessors - paragraph 13 partly applies to my situation but not quite:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=884781&highlight=nfp+%2B+spouse

At the moment it feels like my only option will be to discuss all of this with my spouse and knowing what his reaction will be, agree that we will have to use contraception following the birth of this baby, even though it will break my heart to do so. I am continually praying for my husband’s conversion by the way, but I know that once I explain all of this to him he will want to use contraception. Because I am anticipating this sin, it feels like I am already consenting to it, if that makes any sense and I don’t want to be in mortal sin, neither do I want to refuse the marriage act and put a strain on my marriage.

Sorry for the long post- can anyone advise please? My soul is very troubled over this.

From:

In such a case the obligation “of providing for the preservation of mankind” (621) ceases, because a woman is not obliged, by the matrimonial contract, to expose herself to dangers or injury which are not ordinarily part of maternity (Courier de Rome, June 1991, p.2**).

**(Reference: No. 621 in*Papal Teaching: Matrimony. Selected and arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, trans. Michael J. Byrnes. Boston: St. Paul Books, *1963.)

 

[ilovestcharbel]

Thank you all for your considerate responses.

I understand I cannot suggest contraception to my husband or else I become complicit in the sin, thank you for clarifying this. The reason I am so torn up spiritually is because knowing where my husband’s faith is at, I see things heading down this route - unless a miracle happens, and I do not underestimate God to provide an answer to my issue. Just if everything stays the same, if my husband does not experience a conversion and my section goes as planned, I foresee a very difficult time ahead for us where my husband, in spite of my beliefs, and through no fault of his own, will just not understand why I refuse to use contraception for the sake of our marriage.

Thank you for the suggestion of the pill - I have been to the doctor about my medical issues before but do not feel I am in so much pain as to need the pill. And as another poster suggested, I have contacted the National Catholic Bioethics Center with my details.

Just believe me when I say I am praying non stop for a miraculous solution to this. I know we must enter the kingdom by the narrow gate but I also know how precious the sacrament of marriage is and I am constantly making sacrifices in my married life in order to preserve the integrity of this sacrament - but none of them have up to now led me into sin. Please pray for me.

 

[Petersprincess1]

Hi. Congrats on #4! Children are truly a blessing! Pardon my humble advice, but perhaps we put too much faith and reliance on doctors. If you did by chance conceive #5, wouldn’t it be up to God what would happen? If He wills the creation of another soul with you and your husbands cooperation, who are we to determine what His outcome would be? Perhaps just praying and trusting in Him, and all will be fine. Maybe he has no more children planned by you… People have relations during their fertile period and don’t end up conceiving. It’s up to God whether or not another human being will be created. Forgive me if this doesn’t make sense. I just believe that God is the ultimate creator, and people can have relations every month during their fertile time, but unless He wills it, they will not conceive. God bless you and your family and your newest addition!

 

[Xantippe]

Hi. Congrats on #4! Children are truly a blessing! Pardon my humble advice, but perhaps we put too much faith and reliance on doctors. If you did by chance conceive #5, wouldn’t it be up to God what would happen? If He wills the creation of another soul with you and your husbands cooperation, who are we to determine what His outcome would be? Perhaps just praying and trusting in Him, and all will be fine. Maybe he has no more children planned by you… People have relations during their fertile period and don’t end up conceiving. It’s up to God whether or not another human being will be created. Forgive me if this doesn’t make sense. I just believe that God is the ultimate creator, and people can have relations every month during their fertile time, but unless He wills it, they will not conceive. God bless you and your family and your newest addition!

Likewise, if you drive drunk and plow into a preschool, isn’t it up to God what will happen?

I know you mean well, but being careless with our lives and the lives of others because “God wills it” is not good Catholic doctrine.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

To be blunt, there are no loopholes in the Church that allow you to do bad things without repercussions…

There is a reason the Vademecum for Confessors, is just that, for confessors.

I would suggest doing your best (praying, penance) and talk with your spouse. If you find yourself in a tough position after you have given it your best to lead your spouse to what is best for you and your marriage, then go to a good priest and talk with him. Depending on your situation at the time, you may or may not have good enough reason to go ahead with it if your spouse on his own decides to use condoms (which aren’t very reliable anyways) or a vasectomy (where you guys would have to abstain for a while anyway), but that is something on which you would need spiritual guidance.

As for the suggestion to get a diagnosis and go on the pill… that is not a good suggestion. First, you cannot give medical advice here (the pill isn’t even considered the best choice by all). Second, it isn’t about finding a doctor that will ok the pill for “other than contraception” reasons so you can use it for contraception!
The reason the pill can be ok sometimes is because when you evaluate the negative side effects of the pill against the positive intended effects of the medication, the positive ones are so much better that they justify the **unintended **negative. If you get a diagnosis of anything, it should be to work on healing that issue, not to be able to get a pass to use contraception!

With all that being said, ilovestcharbel, you are in a tough situation and I know it won’t be easy. Prayers for you, your little one on his/her way, and your marriage!

I agree with this. The Vademecum for Confessors isn’t meant for the laity, it’s a guideline for the priests to use when faced with these circumstances.

I would suggest perhaps contacting One More Soul to see if there is an NFP only doctor where you live. Perhaps they can guide you towards a different NFP model that would work for you.

onemoresoul.com/

 

[Petersprincess1]

Likewise, if you drive drunk and plow into a preschool, isn’t it up to God what will happen?

I know you mean well, but being careless with our lives and the lives of others because “God wills it” is not good Catholic doctrine.

I don’t think I would compare marital relations with driving drunk. Drunk driving is always bad. Marital relations doesn’t guarantee conception will take place. God is the only one who can create a baby. If He wills it. Who are we to decide whether or not God wants to create another human being?

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think I would compare marital relations with driving drunk. Drunk driving is always bad. Marital relations doesn’t guarantee conception will take place. God is the only one who can create a baby. If He wills it. Who are we to decide whether or not God wants to create another human being?

Drunk driving is often not fatal. Lots of people drink and drive repeatedly before getting a DWI or getting into an accident, let alone before being involved in a fatal accident.

“Over 1.2 million drivers were arrested in 2011 for driving under the influence of alcohol or
narcotics.”

“Adults drank too much and drove about 112 million times per year - almost 300,000 incidents of drinking and driving a day.”

“An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.”

Drunk driving kills about 10,000 Americans a year. So, by my rough math, for every drunk driving death, there are 10,000 incidents of drunk driving.

madd.org/statistics/

Hence, in the OP’s case, drunk driving (or riding with a drunk driver) would probably be way safer than getting pregnant again. Pregnancy and childbirth kills roughly 1 woman for every 5,000 births, which means that driving drunk or riding with a drunk driver once is twice as safe as having a baby.

washingtonpost.com/local/maternal-deaths-in-childbirth-rise-in-the-us/2014/05/02/abf7df96-d229-11e3-9e25-188ebe1fa93b_story.html

 

[12345678]

Drunk driving is often not fatal. Lots of people drink and drive repeatedly before getting a DWI or getting into an accident, let alone before being involved in a fatal accident.

“Over 1.2 million drivers were arrested in 2011 for driving under the influence of alcohol or
narcotics.”

“Adults drank too much and drove about 112 million times per year - almost 300,000 incidents of drinking and driving a day.”

“An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.”

Drunk driving kills about 10,000 Americans a year. So, by my rough math, for every drunk driving death, there are 10,000 incidents of drunk driving.

madd.org/statistics/

Hence, in the OP’s case, drunk driving (or riding with a drunk driver) would probably be way safer than getting pregnant again. Pregnancy and childbirth kills roughly 1 woman for every 5,000 births, which means that driving drunk or riding with a drunk driver once is twice as safe as having a baby.

washingtonpost.com/local/maternal-deaths-in-childbirth-rise-in-the-us/2014/05/02/abf7df96-d229-11e3-9e25-188ebe1fa93b_story.html

I agree with Peter’s Princess, that is not a good comparison. Sex is good for a married couple, babies are good, getting drunk is grave matter, it doesn’t matter if people die more from pregnancy, it is just apples and oranges.

That being said, prudence tells us that if a mother’s life is at risk, she should definitely use moral means to avoid losing her life. Yes, she can get a second and third opinion, I don’t disagree with that option (since nowadays so many doctor’s automatically choose sterility to avoid any potential issues), but she should definitely take this health concern seriously.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with Peter’s Princess, that is not a good comparison. Sex is good for a married couple, babies are good, getting drunk is grave matter, it doesn’t matter if people die more from pregnancy, it is just apples and oranges.

That being said, prudence tells us that if a mother’s life is at risk, she should definitely use moral means to avoid losing her life. Yes, she can get a second and third opinion, I don’t disagree with that option (since nowadays so many doctor’s automatically choose sterility to avoid any potential issues), but she should definitely take this health concern seriously.

It’s not just the mother’s life at risk–presumably any hypothetical future child would be in equal or more danger. You could easily lose both in the case of a uterine rupture.

 

[12345678]

It’s not just the mother’s life at risk–presumably any hypothetical future child would be in equal or more danger. You could easily lose both in the case of a uterine rupture.

Agreed.

It still isn’t comparable to drunk driving, and it is still something where a life (or lives) could be at stake and so the couple needs to seek the moral options.

 

[Xantippe]

Agreed.

It still isn’t comparable to drunk driving, and it is still something where a life (or lives) could be at stake and so the couple needs to seek the moral options.

It’s not comparable to drunk driving because it’s considerably more dangerous to mother and child than drunk driving.

The OP can ask her doctor for exact stats for her particular situation.