Very Worried Husband

[Jack_Hilling]

This is my first post, so perhaps I should be posting somewhere else. My wife of almost 30 years just moved out. After 9 months of weekly marriage counseling, she felt she needed more “space” to “discern” whether she wants to stay or go in the marriage. My question pertains to the actions/inactions of Father Fred (not is real name). My wife and Fred have become very close friends about since she first met him about 5-7 years ago when he was one of our parish priests for about a year. Just the two of them have met many, many times, including having a set weekly date at night at a restaurant/bar where they had their regular drinks and appetizers. My wife has helped Fred to an extraordinary extent with his personal clerical task (e.g., helping maintain an extensive mailing list, designing his elaborate Christmas card, designing a cover for his book, loaning him her computer for many months, fixing his computer problems, helping him move, hosting an annual party for him, going out - just the two - to celebrate her birthday, etc.) This has been going on for years now. Fred has joined us at Thanksgiving and slept at our house several times. He knows me and our grown kids, but not nearly as well as my wife. (Our three kids are recently all out of the home). My concern pertains to the fact that my wife had been confiding to Fred about the details of her unhappiness in our marriage for many months (maybe years), and yet it was not until 9 months ago, at my repeated questioning, that she told me she was “discerning whether to stay or go.” Did Father Fred fulfill is priestly duties, or was he putting his friendship first? I am amazed that Fred apparently did not insist that my wife speak to me way, way back, before she become more and more distant. Also, it sounds like Father Fred did not do anything to give my wife reading material or CDs regarding what marriage means in the context of her Catholic faith. (BTW, my wife has an advance degree in religious studies from a Catholic university, and she works for the Catholic Church in religious education.) From what I can tell, Fred listened to my wife and urged her to stay married, but he did not take any further steps month after month, all the while knowing that my wife’s affection and connection to me was weakening day-by-day. A very close friend of mine, a Lutheran minister, told me that he was taught in the seminary that a male religious (priest, minister, etc.) must not meet in private with a married parishoner more than a couple times - beyond that amount creates a situatoin where the risks of emotional connection, special treatment, the appearance of impropriety, etc. become much too high. Now that we are separating, family members and close friends have been telling me that they thought my wife and Fred’s relationship was “way too close,” particularly now when they find out that she denies having any warm, affectionate feelings for me. If anyone out there can refer me to an actual book that seminarians read (or something similar), which contains the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as to how a priest should conduct himself when dealing with a married parishoner, I’d greatly appreciate it. I plan to have a man-to-man talk with Fred at the right time. If my marriage cannot be saved, at least I will know I did my part to make Fred think long and hard so that he will put his duties as priest, rather than friend, at the forefront in the future. Thank you, and I apologize the for the length of this message.

 

[Jack_Hilling]

This is my first post, so perhaps I should be posting somewhere else. My wife of almost 30 years just moved out. After 9 months of weekly marriage counseling, she felt she needed more “space” to “discern” whether she wants to stay or go in the marriage. My question pertains to the actions/inactions of Father Fred (not is real name). My wife and Fred have become very close friends about since she first met him about 5-7 years ago when he was one of our parish priests for about a year. Just the two of them have met many, many times, including having a set weekly date at night at a restaurant/bar where they had their regular drinks and appetizers. My wife has helped Fred to an extraordinary extent with his personal clerical task (e.g., helping maintain an extensive mailing list, designing his elaborate Christmas card, designing a cover for his book, loaning him her computer for many months, fixing his computer problems, helping him move, hosting an annual party for him, going out - just the two - to celebrate her birthday, etc.) This has been going on for years now. Fred has joined us at Thanksgiving and slept at our house several times. He knows me and our grown kids, but not nearly as well as my wife. (Our three kids are recently all out of the home). My concern pertains to the fact that my wife had been confiding to Fred about the details of her unhappiness in our marriage for many months (maybe years), and yet it was not until 9 months ago, at my repeated questioning, that she told me she was “discerning whether to stay or go.” Did Father Fred fulfill is priestly duties, or was he putting his friendship first? I am amazed that Fred apparently did not insist that my wife speak to me way, way back, before she become more and more distant. Also, it sounds like Father Fred did not do anything to give my wife reading material or CDs regarding what marriage means in the context of her Catholic faith. (BTW, my wife has an advance degree in religious studies from a Catholic university, and she works for the Catholic Church in religious education.) From what I can tell, Fred listened to my wife and urged her to stay married, but he did not take any further steps month after month, all the while knowing that my wife’s affection and connection to me was weakening day-by-day. A very close friend of mine, a Lutheran minister, told me that he was taught in the seminary that a male religious (priest, minister, etc.) must not meet in private with a married parishoner more than a couple times - beyond that amount creates a situatoin where the risks of emotional connection, special treatment, the appearance of impropriety, etc. become much too high. Now that we are separating, family members and close friends have been telling me that they thought my wife and Fred’s relationship was “way too close,” particularly now when they find out that she denies having any warm, affectionate feelings for me. If anyone out there can refer me to an actual book that seminarians read (or something similar), which contains the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as to how a priest should conduct himself when dealing with a married parishoner, I’d greatly appreciate it. I plan to have a man-to-man talk with Fred at the right time. If my marriage cannot be saved, at least I will know I did my part to make Fred think long and hard so that he will put his duties as priest, rather than friend, at the forefront in the future. Thank you, and I apologize the for the length of this message.

 

[1ke]

If anyone out there can refer me to an actual book that seminarians read (or something similar),

Seminaries do not follow a standard curriculum any more than any university does. There may not be such a book in existence, and even if there is that is no indication that any particular priest read it.

which contains the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as to how a priest should conduct himself when dealing with a married parishoner, I’d greatly appreciate it.

This is, at its heart, a prudential matter-- not a doctrinal one. Therefore, the Church does not have a “teaching” on the matter.

I suggest you contact the Vicar for Clergy at your diocese and ask what, if any, guidance or policies your bishop has in place.

I plan to have a man-to-man talk with Fred at the right time. If my marriage cannot be saved, at least I will know I did my part to make Fred think long and hard so that he will put his duties as priest, rather than friend, at the forefront in the future. Thank you, and I apologize the for the length of this message.

I am very sorry that this is happening. I hope your wife will reconsider her actions.

 

[Carolus_Martell]

You should share your concerns with Fred’s Bishop.

 

[Ophelia23]

You should share your concerns with Fred’s Bishop.

x2.

 

[Gorgias]

Jack,

First and foremost, please know that my prayers go out to you and your wife. This must be an incredibly painful moment for you, and I can’t imagine what you’re going through at this moment.

My question pertains to the actions/inactions of Father Fred (not is real name).

Did Father Fred fulfill is priestly duties, or was he putting his friendship first? I am amazed that Fred apparently did not insist that my wife speak to me way, way back, before she become more and more distant.

From what I can tell, Fred listened to my wife and urged her to stay married

It sounds like you’re unsure of the content of their discussions, but that you wish that he had said or done more.

From what I can tell, Fred listened to my wife and urged her to stay married, but he did not take any further steps month after month, all the while knowing that my wife’s affection and connection to me was weakening day-by-day.

Let’s presume, for the moment, that the tenor of their discussions had led them to a “spiritual direction” kind of relationship. If that were the case, then there’s a certain expectation of confidentiality that exists. He can encourage her to do all sorts of things – readings, discussions with you, etc – but he can neither enforce his requests nor bring in other people (even you) into the discussion.

A very close friend of mine, a Lutheran minister, told me that he was taught in the seminary that a male religious (priest, minister, etc.) must not meet in private with a married parishoner more than a couple times - beyond that amount creates a situatoin where the risks of emotional connection, special treatment, the appearance of impropriety, etc. become much too high.

Seminarians today are being taught this.

If anyone out there can refer me to an actual book that seminarians read (or something similar), which contains the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as to how a priest should conduct himself when dealing with a married parishoner, I’d greatly appreciate it.

Here’s the problem, though. I’m assuming that Father Fred isn’t newly ordained; in fact, I’d assume he’s at least 50-60 years old? That might imply that he was in seminary 30 or 40 years ago? That would mean that, while in seminary, he wasn’t taught the kinds of things that you’re expecting he should know. (Should he have known better, as an adult and a minister with years of practical experience? Perhaps.) But, to go to him with a quote from a book, expecting that he’d be familiar with the book, isn’t necessarily a reasonable expectation.

I plan to have a man-to-man talk with Fred at the right time. If my marriage cannot be saved, at least I will know I did my part to make Fred think long and hard so that he will put his duties as priest, rather than friend, at the forefront in the future.

Two thoughts, Jack. First, what you’ve written right there sounds like it’s coming from a place of anger. I can understand that you’re angry, and it might be good for you to find an means of expressing that anger. An appropriate place might be in counseling – would the counselor that you and your wife have been visiting be willing to meet with you alone? That would be the place to talk out these desires you have to “make Fred think long and hard.”

Second, as I mentioned above, I’m not certain that Father Fred “put his duties as a friend at the forefront”. It’s possible that he was acting primarily as a priest, which would have bound him to confidentiality to your wife in all that she told him.

I’ll keep you in my prayers, Jack!

Blessings,

G.

 

[mountee]

My gut reaction was the same as the other posters, to go to the bishop. But, when you think about it there is a big piece of the puzzle missing, Fr. Fred’s side of all of this. Waiting to hear it could be a very big mistake. There us a chance his side could be very different than what you are thinking and wouldn’t it be the best way to go forward, speak to him first. If that does not satisfy you, then go to the bishop. If it were me I would ask for someone else to sit in on the conversation with me.

 

[Brother_Andre]

Contact the bishop’s office as soon as possible. They will not want to hear your story, but you have to be persistent. As well, if you have another priest you can talk to about this, one who is very mature and trustworthy (I would recommend a younger priest, one in his 30s or 40s at the oldest) then discuss it with that priest as well.

Women who get emotionally involved with priests is a well known phenomenon and most parish priests can relate multiple cases of it. The priest becomes for lonely women a kind of father/husband stand-in. Get on to the bishop immediately.

 

[Gorgias]

You should share your concerns with Fred’s Bishop.

x2.

sigh No, this is not necessarily the proper course of action.

Think about it: what would Jack be able to say? “Father Fred and my wife have a close relationship, and my wife is leaving me. Father Fred failed as a priest and didn’t advise my wife properly, letting his personal relationship take precedence over his priestly duties.”

That’s about it, isn’t it? But, there’s nothing there that rises to the level of fact; it’s all emotion and innuendo. Granted, Jack has a right to the emotions he’s feeling at the moment; yet, asserting things that he doesn’t know to be true – in essence, trying to get Father Fred in trouble with his bishop – doesn’t seem like the right course of action.

 

[Waiting]

This is the right time for that chat with Fr. Fred. After all, he is your priest, too. If there is something he needs to explain to you, then this private time is the right time. God bless.

 

[dshix]

x2.

sigh No, this is not necessarily the proper course of action.

Think about it: what would Jack be able to say? “Father Fred and my wife have a close relationship, and my wife is leaving me. Father Fred failed as a priest and didn’t advise my wife properly, letting his personal relationship take precedence over his priestly duties.”

That’s about it, isn’t it? But, there’s nothing there that rises to the level of fact; it’s all emotion and innuendo. Granted, Jack has a right to the emotions he’s feeling at the moment; yet, asserting things that he doesn’t know to be true – in essence, trying to get Father Fred in trouble with his bishop – doesn’t seem like the right course of action.

You are putting words into the mouth of the OP.

The proper way to report this to the bishop would be to say what he did in this thread. Essentially he should say that his wife has been seeing this priest very frequently on scheduled dates and over time she has lost all affection for him, and as a result she is not considering leaving him. This does not convey emotion, only facts as related by the wife herself.

 

[Jack_Hilling]

I do NOT intend to get anyone else involved, such as the Bishop. I was simply looking to see whether there are any explicit teachings that priests are provided pertaining to this issue. I just want more information before talking to the priest. If there are no such teachings (perhaps my Lutheran friend was misinformed as to Catholic priests), then I obviously need to know this too. And I truly am not angry - I am feeling more sad and let down, both for myself and my wife. Perhaps, though, I was expecting too much. And the point above, that everything said by Fred and my wife could be appropriately deemed confidential, is a good one. Likewise, a valid point is raised about the fact that a parishoner can be wisely advised by a priest yet decide not to follow that good advise.

 

[Gorgias]

You are putting words into the mouth of the OP.

No, I’m attempting to address the advice ‘go to the bishop’. The only reason to do so would be to report impropriety. My ‘role play’ was meant to ask a simple question: what do those who have posted here think that they’d be able to tell the bishop that warrants such an action? Little or nothing – and perhaps, unwarranted slander of the priest’s good name.

The proper way to report this to the bishop would be to say what he did in this thread. Essentially he should say that his wife has been seeing this priest very frequently on scheduled dates and over time she has lost all affection for him, and as a result she is not considering leaving him. This does not convey emotion, only facts as related by the wife herself.

Again: what in that description says “improper action on the part of the priest”? You might make the claim that he has an improper relationship with Jack’s wife, but no such evidence seems to exist. Therefore, taking it to the bishop seems to be premature and possibly counter-productive. At best, this step would serve only to have the clergy office go to the priest and advise, “be careful about giving off the impression of impropriety.” Good advice, to be sure, but still…

Moreover, you’re creating a link where none might exist: by saying “as a result” you’re opining that she’s leaving because of the priest or of things he’s said – or at least asserting that it’s the priest’s fault that she ‘has lost all affection’ for Jack. There’s no evidence of that. I would gently assert to you that such a mis-characterization falls squarely counter to the eighth commandment – certainly rash judgment is in play, and possibly calumny as well.

Blessings,

G.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am very sorry to hear of your trials.

1ke is right, there is no doctrinal “teaching” on this. It’s more of a common sense thing. Talking to the diocesan Vicar for Clergy would be your best bet.

I just want to toss this out there for consideration, but could your wife have have had these conversations with the priest in the context of the Sacrament of Confession? If that were the case, then the priest wouldn’t be able to say anything to you.

 

[Gorgias]

I was simply looking to see whether there are any explicit teachings that priests are provided pertaining to this issue. I just want more information before talking to the priest. If there are no such teachings (perhaps my Lutheran friend was misinformed as to Catholic priests), then I obviously need to know this too.

Jack,

Sorry for starting a side conversation here in your thread; I was just trying to offer a counter-argument to those whose first response is “call the bishop!”

It would seem that you’re asking about the training that priests receive with respect to cultivating and maintaining proper relationships among the laity, especially with women. You might want to check out John Paul II’s document Pastores Dabo Vobis, especially the section dealing with human formation (beginning at paragraph 43). This only speaks in general terms about the positive aspects of forming proper relationships, and may not be the simple prescriptive directions that you’re looking to find. Dioceses use a variety of resources to teach their presbyterates about proper ways of relating. These resources may come from a variety of sources – chances are, they’re not official expressions of the Magisterium, but rather, come from reputable organizations and professionals. If there’s a simple statement of the universal magisterium of the type you seem to be seeking, I’m not aware of it off-hand. There might be something at the policy level of the diocese or the USCCB, however.

From a completely objective perspective, there seems to be a profound lesson in this situation for Father Fred: establishing close personal relationships with your parishioners is often a very bad idea – it blurs the lines between the role of ‘pastor’ and the role of ‘friend’, and often, it leaves the priest unable to act in either role very well (even once he’s moved on to another parish!). Worse yet, when a close friendship ensues, it leaves the priest vulnerable to a host of unsavory accusations. Father Fred has placed himself in precisely this position, and may soon find himself facing rather uncomfortable questions as a result.

Jack, you may not be the right person to deliver this message to Father Fred – anything you say to him may not be taken as ‘objective’ and ‘emotionless’, even if you’re able to express it in objective and emotionless terms in a discussion with him. Perhaps a discussion with your current pastor, expressing your concerns, might be a more appropriate way to do this, and wouldn’t carry the risk of an emotional encounter (on the part of either you or Father Fred!).

Either way, please know that I’m praying for you…

Blessings,

G.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And we can pansy around the issue about not having any evidence of this priest having an improper relationship, but the fact is he has. The Protestant minister was right. It is totally improper to have that many private meeting with a woman, ESPECIALLY one who has marital problems and is speaking to him about them, ESPECIALLY in a tavern setting. Excuse me, but in my 54 years things have not changed that much; this was wrong behavior then and it is now.

And I think it’s clear to anyone without blinders on that this woman has developed an emotional connection with the priest that is stronger than what she has with her husband. Not only does she spend evenings with him, she’s by his side in all he does – that in itself not a bad thing but it’s one more piece of the puzzle. And for a woman, from what I think I’ve learned anyway, the emotional connection is even more important to a marriage than the physical one. And this priest knows this is how it works. Even if he had no feelings for her, it was enticing to her. A shoulder to cry on? Is that what it was?

When I was young and immoral, I would consider this the perfect setup. Woman feeling distant from husband will sit in a bar with me weekly? Heck yes; that’s practically a formula for getting to getting her to go with me.

And “discerning” whether to stay or not? That’s bull-droppings. Unless your spouse is a bona fide abuser, you don’t “discern” whether you live up to your vows you made in front of God and man, and if those two had been discussing the issue. Where did “discern” come from anyway? That term applies to choosing between two good things; not one right and one wrong. She sound like she wants what she wants, and she wants to control what others think and say about it.

Of course this is the story from the OP. I’d want to hear more from or about the wife for passing judgment. But as far as the priest? If the facts we’ve been told are true, I don’t mind saying he behaved improperly at best, possibly (likely IMO) had improper feelings for her himself, and at worst acted to drive her further away from her marriage vows.

As far as telling the bishop, I’d say that’s optional depending on how you want to play it. Maybe this priest is doing this with other women as well; if so there may be value in protecting other couples from him. But as far as scandal, fooey. The priest behaved in a scandalous manner. Going to bars weekly with another man’s wife – not to mention one who is troubled and/or confused about her marriage – speaks much more powerfully than the collar he may or may not wear when they go.

Alan

 

[dshix]

And we can pansy around the issue about not having any evidence of this priest having an improper relationship, but the fact is he has. The Protestant minister was right. It is totally improper to have that many private meeting with a woman, ESPECIALLY one who has marital problems and is speaking to him about them, ESPECIALLY in a tavern setting. Excuse me, but in my 54 years things have not changed that much; this was wrong behavior then and it is now.

And I think it’s clear to anyone without blinders on that this woman has developed an emotional connection with the priest that is stronger than what she has with her husband. Not only does she spend evenings with him, she’s by his side in all he does – that in itself not a bad thing but it’s one more piece of the puzzle. And for a woman, from what I think I’ve learned anyway, the emotional connection is even more important to a marriage than the physical one. And this priest knows this is how it works. Even if he had no feelings for her, it was enticing to her. A shoulder to cry on? Beyond that I’d guess.

When I was young and immoral, I would consider this the perfect setup. Woman feeling distant from husband will sit in a bar with me weekly? Heck yes; that’s practically a formula for getting to seduce her.

And “discerning” whether to stay or not? That’s bull-droppings. Unless your spouse is a bona fide abuser, you don’t “discern” whether you live up to your vows you made in front of God and man, and if those two had been discussing the issue. Where did “discern” come from anyway? That term applies to choosing between two good things; not one right and one wrong. She sound like she wants what she wants, and she wants to control what others think and say about it.

Of course this is the story from the OP. I’d want to hear more from or about the wife for passing judgment. But as far as the priest? If the facts we’ve been told are true, I don’t mind saying he behaved improperly at best, possibly (likely IMO) had improper feelings for her himself, and at worst acted to drive her further away from her marriage vows.

As far as telling the bishop, I’d say that’s optional depending on how you want to play it. Maybe this priest is doing this with other women as well; if so there may be value in protecting other couples from him. But as far as scandal, fooey. The priest behaved in a scandalous manner. Going to bars weekly with another man’s trouble wife speaks much more powerfully than the collar he may or may not wear when they go.

Alan

 

[Jack_Hilling]

I feel I need to reiterate something - I do NOT plan to contact the Bishop or anyone else about this. I view it as a matter strictly between me, my wife and Father Fred. I do appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut. My focus is on trying to learn if there are any set teachings for priests on how to handle this type of situation. I believe Father Fred is a truly good, holy man, who is doing a wonderful job in many, many respects. I just have a personal concern about how he handled this situation with my wife, whether he did all he could to recommend that she talk to me about how she was feeling rather than just allowing her emotional attachment to grow stronger and stronger with him. I believe that to a large extent, due to the way the priest handled this, my wife steadily replaced a desire for closeness with me for a desire for an increasing closeness and bond with Father Fred (and other friends). Monday morning quarterbacking? Yeah, maybe. I don’t blame Father Fred - I just find it unsettling and ironic that a Catholic mother of 3, who works for the Catholic Church in education, and whose closest friend is a priest, is “discerning” whether to leave her husband of almost 30 years. The whole topic of the sanctity of marriage/keeping one’s marital vows has seemed essentially irrelevant to my wife when I have raised this issue. Again, it makes me wonder if Fred even talked to my wife about this.

 

[PaulJude]

This is my first post, so perhaps I should be posting somewhere else. My wife of almost 30 years just moved out. After 9 months of weekly marriage counseling, she felt she needed more “space” to “discern” whether she wants to stay or go in the marriage. My question pertains to the actions/inactions of Father Fred (not is real name). My wife and Fred have become very close friends about since she first met him about 5-7 years ago when he was one of our parish priests for about a year. Just the two of them have met many, many times, including having a set weekly date at night at a restaurant/bar where they had their regular drinks and appetizers. My wife has helped Fred to an extraordinary extent with his personal clerical task (e.g., helping maintain an extensive mailing list, designing his elaborate Christmas card, designing a cover for his book, loaning him her computer for many months, fixing his computer problems, helping him move, hosting an annual party for him, going out - just the two - to celebrate her birthday, etc.) This has been going on for years now. Fred has joined us at Thanksgiving and slept at our house several times. He knows me and our grown kids, but not nearly as well as my wife. (Our three kids are recently all out of the home). My concern pertains to the fact that my wife had been confiding to Fred about the details of her unhappiness in our marriage for many months (maybe years), and yet it was not until 9 months ago, at my repeated questioning, that she told me she was “discerning whether to stay or go.” Did Father Fred fulfill is priestly duties, or was he putting his friendship first? I am amazed that Fred apparently did not insist that my wife speak to me way, way back, before she become more and more distant. Also, it sounds like Father Fred did not do anything to give my wife reading material or CDs regarding what marriage means in the context of her Catholic faith. (BTW, my wife has an advance degree in religious studies from a Catholic university, and she works for the Catholic Church in religious education.) From what I can tell, Fred listened to my wife and urged her to stay married, but he did not take any further steps month after month, all the while knowing that my wife’s affection and connection to me was weakening day-by-day. A very close friend of mine, a Lutheran minister, told me that he was taught in the seminary that a male religious (priest, minister, etc.) must not meet in private with a married parishoner more than a couple times - beyond that amount creates a situatoin where the risks of emotional connection, special treatment, the appearance of impropriety, etc. become much too high. Now that we are separating, family members and close friends have been telling me that they thought my wife and Fred’s relationship was “way too close,” particularly now when they find out that she denies having any warm, affectionate feelings for me. If anyone out there can refer me to an actual book that seminarians read (or something similar), which contains the actual teachings of the Catholic Church as to how a priest should conduct himself when dealing with a married parishoner, I’d greatly appreciate it. I plan to have a man-to-man talk with Fred at the right time. If my marriage cannot be saved, at least I will know I did my part to make Fred think long and hard so that he will put his duties as priest, rather than friend, at the forefront in the future. Thank you, and I apologize the for the length of this message.

What a painful situation you are in.
As you pray for your wife let the Lord inspire you with creative sacrfices or acts of love for her each day. You can conquer her heart again. I Priests certainly have training about detatchments especially with women. Besides it is common sense for a priest to protect his vocation and that of another. Perhaps he is very lonely and vulnerable. Why not have a frank discussion with him. Ask him if he thinks it is appropriate for him to have that kind of relationship with your wife. Ask him for help to save your marriage or to refer you somewhere for help. My wife died in May. I still cry every day.

 

[KnitNut]

In your first post, you state that you & your wife have had nine months of weekly marriage counseling. Did you not raise the concern about her relationship with your priest at some point during the counseling? Perhaps the priest is just a convenient scapegoat for the actual problems existing within the marriage.