Vespers and Obligation

[mystagogia87]

On Sunday, I went to what I thought was a mass, but it turned out to be a vespers service. I went to the vespers service but didn’t stay for the later mass because I was working.

Did the vespers fulfill my Sunday obligation?

 

[Big_Feet]

No. It did not. It was not a mass, merely a prayer service including the use of the Divine Office.

 

[corsair]

Although Vespers is a major prayer of the church, it does not substitute for Holy Mass.

If it were not possible for you to attend Mass because of your work schedule then you need to make some arrangement for Mass, whether it be attending on Saturday evening or planning better for an early Sunday Mass. It may even involve driving to a more distant parish.

Your spiritual needs are very important.
God Bless

 

[russialover]

In the east, it would suffice, does anyone know why the Latin Church doesn’t allow this?

 

[JGMendes4049]

In the east, it would suffice, does anyone know why the Latin Church doesn’t allow this?

My best guess would be that it never has. Either that or your Divine Office must have a significantly different structure. Vespers in the Roman Rite consists of the introduction, a hymn, two psalms, a canticle, a short reading, the Gospel canticle, intercessions, the Lord’s Prayer, the concluding Collect, and the dismissal.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Eastern Catholics can indeed fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending Saturday night Vespers or Sunday morning Orthros/Matins/Morning Prayer.

The service mentioned, however, was Sunday night Vespers, which Liturgically is actually a Monday service, not a Sunday service. The Liturgical day follows the ancient Jewish custom where the day actually begins and ends at sundown. Traditionally Vespers is the first service of the new day - hence this was a service for Monday. True “Sunday” Vespers would actually be celebrated on Saturday night.

The Divine Office is not just one non-Eucharistic service among many. It is, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, an extension of the Mass and inseparably connected to the Eucharist. The Hours/Divine Office is the official prayer of the Church.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

My best guess would be that it never has. Either that or your Divine Office must have a significantly different structure. Vespers in the Roman Rite consists of the introduction, a hymn, two psalms, a canticle, a short reading, the Gospel canticle, intercessions, the Lord’s Prayer, the concluding Collect, and the dismissal.

Vespers in the Byzantine tradition is structurally very different from Vespers in the Roman tradition. It can take anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour or more to pray. Morning prayer is even longer and, when celebrated in its entirety, and take upwards of 2.5 hours to celebrate. That being said, most parishes abbreviate extensively.

As to whether or not the Roman West has ever had a sense of fulfilling one’s Sunday obligation at Saturday night(read Sunday) Vespers, I do not know. I’ll have to check that out in one of my history books.

I’m in total agreement with the Catechism and the Roman Church that the public daily celebration of at least Matins and Vespers ought to be restored to Roman Catholic parishes. The Liturgy of the Hours is not meant to be a private recitation/celebration, never was. It only became so because of the innovation of the priestly obligation to recite the office. The original practice - still practiced in the Byzantine East - is that the Hours are celebrated publicly by the parish community. If the community is not available, the Hours are not celebrated. Priests and monks, in such cases, could fulfill their “obligation” to pray the Hours by praying a certain number of “Jesus Prayers.”

It’s also interesting to note that the Rosary actually has connections with the Liturgy of the Hours. In ancient times, if a monk was unable to read (and therefore memorize) the Psalter (Book of Psalms), his abbot or spiritual director would assign him a certain number of a certain prayer to say for each Canonical Hour. In the West this eventually developed into the Rosary and the “Pater Noster” beads. In the East this developed into the “Jesus Prayer.”

The Eastern/Byzantine tradition replaces the Hours with the “Jesus Prayer” in the following way:

Orthros/Morning Prayer = 300 Jesus Prayers
Prime = 50
Terce = 50
Sext = 50
None = 50
Vespers = 150
Compline = 100

Just some fun tidbits for y’all.

 

[OraLabora]

The service mentioned, however, was Sunday night Vespers, which Liturgically is actually a Monday service, not a Sunday service. The Liturgical day follows the ancient Jewish custom where the day actually begins and ends at sundown. Traditionally Vespers is the first service of the new day - hence this was a service for Monday. True “Sunday” Vespers would actually be celebrated on Saturday night.

Actually not quite. The vestigial Jewish practice of starting the liturgical day at sundown the previous evening only applies to Sundays, feasts of the Lord falling on a Sunday and solemnities. Sunday Vespers (Sunday 2nd Vespers or Evening Prayer II) is always of the Sunday. Look at the collect for Sunday Vespers and it will always be the same collect as at Sunday Lauds. Similarly, during the week, at memorials or during liturgical seasons, the collect of Vespers will always be the same collect of that was used at Lauds, either of the saint or from the proper of the season.

The practice may be different in Eastern Churches, but in the Roman Church Sunday Vespers definitely is not the Monday liturgy.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Actually not quite. The vestigial Jewish practice of starting the liturgical day at sundown the previous evening only applies to Sundays, feasts of the Lord falling on a Sunday and solemnities. Sunday Vespers (Sunday 2nd Vespers or Evening Prayer II) is always of the Sunday. Look at the collect for Sunday Vespers and it will always be the same collect as at Sunday Lauds. Similarly, during the week, at memorials or during liturgical seasons, the collect of Vespers will always be the same collect of that was used at Lauds, either of the saint or from the proper of the season.

The practice may be different in Eastern Churches, but in the Roman Church Sunday Vespers definitely is not the Monday liturgy.

Huh. Interesting. I guess the Byzantine tradition is different on that note.