Vespers for Feast of the Presentation

[Fauken]

This is one of the reasons I prefer the EF breviary to the OF. If there’s a feast day that coincides with Sunday, it’s commemorated with the office of that day (if the feast day of St. Francis de Sales was Sunday instead of today, the Sunday office would be said, along with the collect and antiphon for the Gospel canticles and the response to the reading).

 

[phil19034]

This is one of the reasons I prefer the EF breviary to the OF. If there’s a feast day that coincides with Sunday, it’s commemorated with the office of that day (if the feast day of St. Francis de Sales was Sunday instead of today, the Sunday office would be said, along with the collect and antiphon for the Gospel canticles and the response to the reading).

I don’t think the issue is the with the OF Breviary - the Breviary plainly has the correct readings.

I think the issue is that a ranking chart isn’t readily available.

So it would be really nice if the had this readly avalible

Table of Precedence

Solemnities

1. Paschal Triduum
2. Christmas
3. Pentecost
4. Epiphany
5. Ascension
6. Sundays of Advent and Lent
7. Sundays in the Easter Season
8. Ash Wednesday
9. Weekdays of Holy Week
10. Weekdays in the Easter Octave
11. Solemnities of the Lord in the general Calendar
12. All Soul’s Day
13. Proper Solemnities

Feasts

1. Feasts of the Lord in the general calendar ***** Treated as Solemnity on Saturdays
2. Sundays of the Christmas season and Sundays in ordinary time ***** Treated as Solemnity
3. Feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the saints in the general calendar
4. Proper feasts
5. Weekdays of Advent from December 17 to December 24
6. Days within the octave of Christmas
7. Weekdays of Lent

Memorials

1. Obligatory Memorials (General)
   2. Obligatory Memorials (Proper)
2. Optional Memorials

Weekdays (Ferial days)

1. Weekdays of Advent up to December 16
2. Weekdays of Christmas Season from January 2 until Saturday after Epiphany
3. Weekdays of Easter Season from Monday after the Octave until Saturday before Pentecost
4. Weekdays in Ordinary Time

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Phil,
but, it says “therefore, barring a different decision from a bishop” and here it would also meant the Conference of Bishops.

What do they have to say about it?

Anyway, for my wife and myself as Discalced Carmelites, Secular, Saturday Vigil Mass fulfills our obligation for praying Vespers according to our Constitution.

Jim

 

[TomH1]

The guide and iBreviary are wrong. Look-up Table of Precedence of Liturgical Days. Feasts of the Lord in the General Roman Calendar* take precedence over Sundays in Ordinary Time**.

*The feast of the Presentation of the Lord is a feast of the Lord in the General Roman Calendar.

**Sunday 3rd February 2019 is a Sunday in Ordinary Time.

The rules governing the concurrence of Vespers state that the Vespers of the liturgical day with higher precedence is recited. If the two liturgical days are equal the Vespers of the occurring liturgical day is said. On this occasion (Saturday 2nd February 2019) the Evening Prayer (Vespers) of the feast of the Presentation of the Lord will be said and not the First Evening Prayer (Vespers I) of Fourth Sunday in Ordinary Time.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

That hasn’t been firmly established yet and there is confusion on how the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have decided on it.

iBreviary and the Guide for Christian Prayer, most likely went to the USCCB for their decision.

Jim

 

[phil19034]

That hasn’t been firmly established yet and there is confusion on how the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have decided on it.

iBreviary and the Guide for Christian Prayer, most likely went to the USCCB for their decision.

Jim

I don’t have a copy of the 2019 Ordo (they cost approx $25 dollars). The Ordo will tell you exactly what you do for your diocese

But, there are 31 different Ordos for the United States alone.

https://www.churchsupplies.com/store/ordo-the-order-of-prayer-in-the-liturgy-of-the-hours-and-celebration-of-the-eucharist.shtml

 

[phil19034]

The guide and iBreviary are wrong. Look-up Table of Precedence of Liturgical Days. Feasts of the Lord in the General Roman Calendar* take precedence over Sundays in Ordinary Time**.

*The feast of the Presentation of the Lord is a feast of the Lord in the General Roman Calendar.

**Sunday 3rd February 2019 is a Sunday in Ordinary Time.

The rules governing the concurrence of Vespers state that the Vespers of the liturgical day with higher precedence is recited. If the two liturgical days are equal the Vespers of the occurring liturgical day is said. On this occasion (Saturday 2nd February 2019) the Evening Prayer (Vespers) of the feast of the Presentation of the Lord will be said and not the First Evening Prayer (Vespers I) of Fourth Sunday in Ordinary Time.

FYI - I THINK I might have figured out what’s going on with, at least, iBreviary.

iBreviary is from Italy. PERHAPS, the Italian national bishops conference has made Vespers I from Sunday supersedes Feasts of the Lord.

Reason I say this: His Italian translation only has Vespers I and does not even mention the the option like the English one does.

And the Spanish version only lists Vespers II from Saturday.

So my guess is that the English countries are so diverse, he listed both, but went with the Italian way as default.

This is my guess.

In regards to the St. Joseph Guide, I would not be surprised to learn that they following the General Edition of the Ordo and not one of the Diocesan versions, or that they follow the Archdiocese of Newark Edition. I also wouldn’t be shocked if I learned that either the General Edition or Archdiocese of Newark Edition of the Ordo follows the Mass for Feasts of the Lord on Saturday evenings.

God bless

 

[phil19034]

That hasn’t been firmly established yet and there is confusion on how the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have decided on it.

iBreviary and the Guide for Christian Prayer, most likely went to the USCCB for their decision.

Jim

OK - I just found an online Ordo for the United States. This online Ordo says Vespers should come from Feb 2nd, NOT the Sunday Evening Prayer I

So it looks like the St. Joseph’s Guide is “wrong” because they either used the wrong Vespers or failed to provide the option (if it’s an option)

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God Bless

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But if you look further, it’s the local Bishops who can change that and in the US, most diocesan Bishops go with what the USCCB says.

Jim

 

[OraLabora]

I think the issue is that a ranking chart isn’t readily available.

This exact table exists, in the French LOTH. Not sure why it isn’t in the English version (I only have Christian Prayer in English, never use it, and am too tired to go find it and see if it has such a table).

I don’t have a copy of the 2019 Ordo (they cost approx $25 dollars). The Ordo will tell you exactly what you do for your diocese

The Canadian Ordo says:

“Saturday, Office of the feast”

The Monastic one, Solesmes and our abbey says for Saturday Feb. 2: “Vespers of the Feast”.

 

[MarkMcClendon]

The ranking chart is readily available:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM
Paragraph #61, near the bottom, deals with concurring Vespers, and the table of liturgical days in order of rank follows.

 

[phil19034]

This exact table exists, in the French LOTH. Not sure why it isn’t in the English version (I only have Christian Prayer in English, never use it, and am too tired to go find it and see if it has such a table).

It might be in the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours, but it isn’t in Christian Prayer.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Looks like another vote for Vespers of the Feast and not Sunday Vespers I.

I was hoping to find a table of feasts in my Missal, but it’s not quite there in a helpful way, but based on the rubrical notes alone, you could almost easily tell the Presentation outranks a typical Sunday.

 

[phil19034]

The ranking chart is readily available:
https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM
Paragraph #61, near the bottom, deals with concurring Vespers, and the table of liturgical days in order of rank follows.

Yes, it’s readily available thanks to the internet & groups like EWTN.

But it’s not readily available on USCCB.org or in Christian Prayer - where it should be, in my opinion.

It’s kind of like the online Ordo I posted a few posts back… The USCCB doesn’t have that on their website either.

 

[AlbertDerGrosse]

This is one of the reasons I prefer the EF breviary to the OF. If there’s a feast day that coincides with Sunday, it’s commemorated with the office of that day (if the feast day of St. Francis de Sales was Sunday instead of today, the Sunday office would be said, along with the collect and antiphon for the Gospel canticles and the response to the reading).

This thread appears to be about liturgical concurrence which is when Vespers (Evening Prayer) of the current liturgical day coincides with I Vespers (Evening Prayer 1) of the next day. What you’re talking about is liturgical occurrence which is when two or more Offices/Masses occur on one and the same day.

Also, the example you gave isn’t correct even for liturgical occurrence on the 1960 calendar. The 1960 rubrics state that 1st Class Sundays permit only a single privileged commemoration and 2nd Class Sundays permit only a single commemoration of equal rank (i.e. a 2nd Class Feast). Privileged commemorations are 1st Class Feasts, Sundays, days within Octaves, Ember Days, the ferias of Advent, ferias of Lent, ferias of Passiontide, and the Greater Litanies at Mass but not in the Office. St. Francis de Sales is neither 2nd Class nor privileged and so would never be commemorated on a Sunday.

As an FYI in case you’re wondering, the rules for concurrence are as follows: If the two Offices are of different rank then the Vespers of the higher ranked feast is said and the other is commemorated following the aforementioned rubrics. If the two Offices are of the same rank then you say Vespers of the current day and commemorate I Vespers of the next day, again, following the aforementioned rubrics.

In other words, you would only commemorate the II Vespers of Saturday if it is a privileged commemoration and the following day is a 1st Class Sunday. If the following day is a 2nd Class Sunday then either you would not commemorate Saturday’s II Vespers (in the case of a 3rd Class or lower Saturday) or you wouldn’t even say Sunday I Vespers, instead commemorating it (in the case of a 1st or 2nd Class Saturday) If St. Francis de Sales fell on a Saturday you would completely omit its Vespers no matter what because it is neither 2nd Class (in case of a 2nd Class Sunday the following day) nor is it privileged (in case of a 1st Class Sunday the following day).

Clear as mud, no?

 

[phil19034]

most diocesan Bishops go with what the USCCB says.

Here’s the thing… so far, no one has provided evidence regarding what the USCCB says. We all have our guesses, but not one has posted it thus far.

And again, there are 31 different Ordos for the United States.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

so far, no one has provided evidence regarding what the USCCB says.

I’m not purporting to… but one more ambiguous data point: the USCCB liturgical calendar does have a special annotation of “Pss Prop” on Feb. 2 which only appears when the propers of a day override the normal routine.

Also, I thought I’d check DivineOffice.org - another group that’s not flawless but usually with the program. They actually complicated the situation further. They had Evening Prayer of the Presentation, not Evening Prayer I of Sunday, and yet while I was typing this the page refreshed, and they had updated to the opposite.

 

[phil19034]

Also, I thought I’d check DivineOffice.org - another group that’s not flawless but usually with the program. They actually complicated the situation further. They had Evening Prayer of the Presentation, not Evening Prayer I of Sunday, and yet while I was typing this the page refreshed, and they had updated to the opposite.

DivineOffice.org make beautiful recordings, but they make mistakes a lot (and every single day if you notice that they always pray the psalm antiphon after the psalm prayer).

 

[phil19034]

OK, I just downloaded the Ordo app from Paulist Press… The app only has the General Edition, which indicates using Evening Prayer I from Sunday.

However, no diocese uses the General Edition. They all use one of 29 different versions.

So I’m sure the St. Joseph Guide is using the General Edition of the Ordo from Paulist Press.

https://www.paulistpress.com/Pages/Center/ordo_list_2019.aspx

God Bless

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

every single day if you notice that they always pray the psalm antiphon after the psalm prayer

How is that a mistake? That’s the appropriate order. iBreviary also does this, as does everything else (including references and instructions) I’ve ever seen.