Vespers for Feast of the Presentation

[JimR-OCDS]

The guide for the St Joseph’s Breviary and Ibreviary are the evidence.

I pretty sure they don’t operate in a vacuum, but consult with the Bishops.

At any rate, they could be wrong and the Ordo as you linked specifies Evening Prayer II for the Feast of the Presentation

So, go with that, until further notice.

Jim

 

[OraLabora]

How is that a mistake? That’s the appropriate order. iBreviary also does this, as does everything else (including references and instructions) I’ve ever seen.

The French Liturgy of the Hours does not have the psalm-prayers (nor for that matter does the Latin Editio Typica!), but the French monastic breviary I use when praying that office does have them. I don’t used them as they are ad-libitum, and the monks who also use the same breviary do not use them either.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

every single day if you notice that they always pray the psalm antiphon after the psalm prayer

How is that a mistake? That’s the appropriate order. iBreviary also does this, as does everything else (including references and instructions) I’ve ever seen.

This article is actually a very interesting read. (there are many places where it explains when you are supposed to read the Psalm prayers)

http://dev.thereseocds.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Placement-of-the-Psalm-Prayer.pdf

It explains why the Psalm Prayers were printed in the wrong location when the Breviary books were published.

But the truth is, the antiphone is to be considered part of the Pslam when praying it. The Psalm Prayers are meant to be prayed after the closing antiphone.

HOWEVER, because many of the Breviaries were printed wrong, it has become acceptable for SOME to pray using the order of the errant Breviaries.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

every single day if you notice that they always pray the psalm antiphon after the psalm prayer

How is that a mistake? That’s the appropriate order. iBreviary also does this, as does everything else (including references and instructions) I’ve ever seen.

In addition to the two copies of Christian Prayer (one from Catholic Book Publishing and one from the Daughters of St. Paul), I have a copy of Daytime Prayer: The Liturgy of the Hours by Catholic Book Publishing.

(It’s a supplemental book to provide all the proper readings for the 3 Daytime prayer offices for people who have the Catholic Book Publishing version of Christian Prayer.)

Anyway, on page 8, the instructions read as follows:

A psalm-prayer has been provided with some psalms. After the psalm has been prayed, the antiphon repeated, and a brief period of silence observed, the prayer is said. It sums up the thoughts and feeling of those who just prayed and helps one to see the psalm in a Christian light.

Also, remember, if you are using Christian Prayer from CBP, they do not print the Antiphone twice, only at the top of the psalm.

I pray this helps.

God Bless!

 

[MarkMcClendon]

That’s interesting! All this time I’ve been saying the psalm-prayer before the repeated antiphon, because that’s how it’s printed, but I’ve always felt that it seemed awkward in that position, that the antiphon is integral to the psalm, and that it would make more sense for the psalm-prayer to come afterwards. Thanks for sharing that document.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I’m aware that they’re additions in some editions; I simply meant that it’s not a mistake to sequence the antiphon afterward when they are used. At least, that’s what I was taught to do; I thought that’s what the monks did, too, but it’s been quite a while since I last prayed with them.

 

[phil19034]

Did you read the article I posted about the Psalm prayer in my post above? It is very interesting.

Vespers for Feast of the Presentation Liturgy and Sacraments

How is that a mistake? That’s the appropriate order. iBreviary also does this, as does everything else (including references and instructions) I’ve ever seen. This article is actually a very interesting read. (there are many places where it explains when you are supposed to read the Psalm prayers) http://dev.thereseocds.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Placement-of-the-Psalm-Prayer.pdf It explains why the Psalm Prayers were printed in the wrong location when the Breviary books were publishe…

 

[OraLabora]

I’ve always felt that it seemed awkward in that position, that the antiphon is integral to the psalm,

Indeed it is, and most antiphons are in fact a verse from the psalm, or a paraphrased or modified version of a verse. In fact when chanting a psalm, one doesn’t recite the first verse (or two) if it/they are in the antiphon, and as someone who chants the Office, it happens fairly often.

Many seasonal or proper antiphons though are related to the season, more usually the readings related to the season or feast.

I think if chanting the psalms it becomes obvious that the antiphon comes after the psalm but before the prayers if they are said (again, they are optional and not every breviary has them, note even the Latin Editio Typica). The finale of the last hemistich of the psalm is meant ease the musical transition back to the sung antiphon, and it varies by psalm tone to match the mode and sub-mode of the antiphon.

 

[TomH1]

That hasn’t been firmly established yet

By whom?

there is confusion on how the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops have decided on it.

Decisions of the Apostolic See take precedence over the USCCB. The USCCB would have had to promulgate something that changes this, and I believe it would require approval from the Holy See.

 

[TomH1]

I think the issue is that a ranking chart isn’t readily available.

It is very readily available. Look-up the document that sets out the norms: General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar. At the end it contains a Table of Precedence of Liturgical Days and very often that is followed by a table that shows when votive Masses and Masses for the dead may or may not be celebrated. Unless I am mistaken the above mentioned document is included in the Missal (altar editions, at least).

 

[TomH1]

But it’s not readily available on USCCB.org or in Christian Prayer - where it should be, in my opinion.

I do agree with you it should be on the USCCB’s website, and I, too, have looked for it there but failed to find it. Here, in England and Wales the norms are on our bishops’ website (norms). I am not familiar with Christian Prayer but believe is to be a shortened version of the LOTH. Perhaps, they omitted it from there to save space and reduce the cost of the book.

 

[MarkMcClendon]

There is much that is abbreviated, abridged, and sometimes just downright confusing, about Christian Prayer, which is why I use the (to me, at least, much easier to use) 4-vol. Liturgy of the Hours. Additionally, with the 4-vol. edition you can pray the entire office correctly, not just MP, EP, and Compline. I don’t find the fact that Christian Prayer is only one volume to be an advantage, since with the full LOTH you’re only using one volume at a time anyway. (The sales lady I purchased the LOTH from initially tried to steer me to Christian Prayer, since “that way you only have to carry around one volume” LOL - she clearly doesn’t understand how LOTH works.)

 

[OraLabora]

I use the 4-volume in French as well. There has been a time where I needed two volumes, when travelling on a transition week.

The French 1-volume is better than CP. mid-day is complete except it only has the daily and collect reading for one of the daytime hours. But the psalmody is complete.

The main advantage is cost. In French you can also buy « Livre des Jours » for the readings of the Office of Readings. So you only need two books of the same size for the whole year, and at half the cost.

The layout isn’t as good as the 4-volume though, so there is much page flipping. And if you do travel overnight you need two books if you plan to pray the Office of Readings. It’s more useful in religious communities where the cost of the 4-volume might be prohibitive for a large community and where, in any case, the readings of the OoR are read by a lector.

Then there are monastics who have their own schémas and different books…or as I have seen, anything from sheets in a loose-leaf binder, to beautifully-bound choir books. At our abbey they use spiral-bound house-published books of decent quality, but they don’t even let oblates have them. I have their older books which they sold or gave away, same material but much more book juggling between hymnals, psalters, propers and commons of seasons and saints and loose inserts for special stuff. A truly monastic way to pray the Hours!

 

[phil19034]

The main advantage is cost.

Exactly. When I first started praying the office, I wasn’t willing to buy the full 4 volumes in case I decided the office wasn’t for me.

So right now, I’m happy with my two different versions of Christian Prayer.

I have the CBP version with just Morning, Evening and Night prayer, plus the Daughters of St. Paul Edition which also includes all three Day Time Prayers

I also have a tiny Daytime Prayer book at my office. So I travel with the CBP version and and leave my St. Paul version at home.

God Bless