Vespers?

[cararolen]

Hey everyone - happy Monday

My kids are at various grandmothers houses for spring break this week so I have some free time after work. There isn’t a daily mass in our area after 5 or I would attend that.

I’ve never been to a Melkite Catholic church but we have one in the area. They have a service called vespers at 5:30.

Can I go to this since I’m not Melkite? What type of service is it? Should I expect anything drastically different than Roman rite?

 

[Vico]

Hey everyone - happy Monday

My kids are at various grandmothers houses for spring break this week so I have some free time after work. There isn’t a daily mass in our area after 5 or I would attend that.

I’ve never been to a Melkite Catholic church but we have one in the area. They have a service called vespers at 5:30.

Can I go to this since I’m not Melkite? What type of service is it? Should I expect anything drastically different than Roman rite?

Yes. Vespers is one of the hours of the Divine Office (the evening prayer):

mliles.com/melkite/vespersgreat.shtml

metropolitancantorinstitute.org/liturgy/Vespers.html

 

[Rich_C]

Hey everyone - happy Monday

My kids are at various grandmothers houses for spring break this week so I have some free time after work. There isn’t a daily mass in our area after 5 or I would attend that.

I’ve never been to a Melkite Catholic church but we have one in the area. They have a service called vespers at 5:30.

Can I go to this since I’m not Melkite? What type of service is it? Should I expect anything drastically different than Roman rite?

Melkites are Catholics, too, so you can certainly go. It will be different, no doubt.

Just to be clear, vespers won’t satisfy your Mass obligation on Sundays and Holy Days. It’s not a Mass, it’s a liturgical prayer happens every evening as part of the 7 daily prayers hours used by clergy and religious (and some laity).

Vespers is something we Romans have too (mostly only at Cathedrals, in my experience); the word is actually Latin for “evening.”

God bless.

 

[cararolen]

Great - thanks for the information. Looking at adding this in addition to mass.

 

[MorEphrem]

Just to be clear, vespers won’t satisfy your Mass obligation on Sundays and Holy Days. It’s not a Mass, it’s a liturgical prayer happens every evening as part of the 7 daily prayers hours used by clergy and religious (and some laity).

And just to provide more clarity (aside from the fact that the idea of obligations isn’t prevalent in the minds of the East), the offices are only second in order of importance as prayer to the mass - when one prays the office, they pray with the entire Church. The attendance of vespers (and matins, if possible) is highly recommended since it is a liturgy, as opposed to simply a private devotion (rosary, divine mercy chaplet, etc.).

 

[Trebor135]

Should I expect anything drastically different than Roman rite?

You may find the sound of the chant startling, as the style can be described as “eerie” or “overwhelming” at points, going on my experience at Melkite Catholic and Antiochian Orthodox churches. Not to mention that much or most of the text may be in Arabic, since members of this sui iuris church generally come from Lebanon, Syria, and environs. You may want to grab an English service book to follow along with.

 

[tomgosse]

At one time, in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, it was a requirement for those receiving communion on Sunday to attend Vespers on Saturday evening.

 

[MichaelinMD]

At one time, in the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic churches, it was a requirement for those receiving communion on Sunday to attend Vespers on Saturday evening.

Do you have a source for this?

Was this due to a requirement to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (make confession) before receiving Holy Communion, and confessions were heard after Vespers? Or, was there an actual requirement to attend Vespers whether one was making confession or not but still going to receive Holy Communion on Sunday? Not all EO or EC churches require(d) confession before each reception of Holy Communion.

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Symeon]

Hey everyone - happy Monday

My kids are at various grandmothers houses for spring break this week so I have some free time after work. There isn’t a daily mass in our area after 5 or I would attend that.

I’ve never been to a Melkite Catholic church but we have one in the area. They have a service called vespers at 5:30.

Can I go to this since I’m not Melkite? What type of service is it? Should I expect anything drastically different than Roman rite?

I would also encourage you to go if you you have the opportunity. It will very likely be different from other types of liturgical prayer you’ve experienced if you come from the western (protestant or RC) tradition. But it will be a beautiful encounter with God. Vespers consists of the chanting of psalms and other hymns, and depending on the day, possibly some scripture readings. Melkite services in the US tend to be a mixture of Arabic, Greek, and English depending on the makeup of the parish (as in how how many people are recent immigrants vs how many are non-Arabic speakers. It might be mostly English). The entire service will be chanted.

Since we are in Great Lent you may want to double check about the schedule, though as there are special evening services during this time. Usually Wednesday nights, for example, there will be something called the “Presanctified Liturgy”, which is a special vespers with holy communion.

 

[cararolen]

Just called the church to confirm their schedule hasn’t changed due to Lent and the priest answered the phone!

Maybe I just haven’t called enough churches but this surprised me lol - i do know that they are quite a small church compared to the Roman Catholic churches here.

He was very kind.I told him I was visiting from another parish and told me to just come on down

 

[tomgosse]

Do you have a source for this?

Was this due to a requirement to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation (make confession) before receiving Holy Communion, and confessions were heard after Vespers? Or, was there an actual requirement to attend Vespers whether one was making confession or not but still going to receive Holy Communion on Sunday? Not all EO or EC churches require(d) confession before each reception of Holy Communion.

In Christ,
MinM

That was told to me by an Orthodox priest. He was sad that the practice died out because now very few people would show up for Vespers. In all Orthodox churches that I’ve attended confessions are heard before the Divine Liturgy during Orthos (Matins).

More information can be found here: Eucharistic discipline

 

[MichaelinMD]

That was told to me by an Orthodox priest. He was sad that the practice died out because now very few people would show up for Vespers. In all Orthodox churches that I’ve attended confessions are heard before the Divine Liturgy during Orthos (Matins).

More information can be found here: Eucharistic discipline

All the Orthodox parishes I’m familiar with (and have attended) have Vespers on Saturday with confessions afterwards. Confessions are also heard before the Divine Liturgy as you mention above. It is indeed sad that the celebration of Vespers has diminished wherever that’s happened. Oh well…gotta roll with the punches, eh?

 

[Trebor135]

For what it’s worth…

The Orthodox church I usually attend in the city where I go to school has confessions before Vespers on Saturday. The Orthodox church I occasionally attend has confessions after Vespers on Saturday and before Divine Liturgy (during matins) on Sunday.

 

[Aramis]

Melkites are Catholics, too, so you can certainly go. It will be different, no doubt.

Just to be clear, vespers won’t satisfy your Mass obligation on Sundays and Holy Days. It’s not a Mass, it’s a liturgical prayer happens every evening as part of the 7 daily prayers hours used by clergy and religious (and some laity).

Unless one is a Byzantine, in which case it does, but that’s because of our liturgical traditions.

 

[cararolen]

So I did go last night and honestly, I did not care for it at all. I think it was just a culture shock though, not that any part of it was bad or objectionable - just very different.

One of the previous posters was correct, the chanting was quite odd (the fact that they chanted the entire hour). The priest wore all black, including a black headpiece with his back to everyone for a portion of the service. At some points people touched the floor with their hand after crossing themselves and then some parts of the service, everyone laid completely on the floor.
One part of the service they did the kyrie 40 times in a row.

But! The point of going was to expose myself to something I have never experience and it definitely did that. The people were very friendly but I don’t think I’ll be returning.
They invited me to visit on Sunday so I could see the divine liturgy service but I am hesitant.

 

[MichaelinMD]

So I did go last night and honestly, I did not care for it at all. I think it was just a culture shock though, not that any part of it was bad or objectionable - just very different.

One of the previous posters was correct, the chanting was quite odd (the fact that they chanted the entire hour). The priest wore all black, including a black headpiece with his back to everyone for a portion of the service. At some points people touched the floor with their hand after crossing themselves and then some parts of the service, everyone laid completely on the floor.
One part of the service they did the kyrie 40 times in a row.

But! The point of going was to expose myself to something I have never experience and it definitely did that. The people were very friendly but I don’t think I’ll be returning.
They invited me to visit on Sunday so I could see the divine liturgy service but I am hesitant.

It does take some getting used to!! Especially if one has been immersed in Western liturgical traditions all of one’s life.

I’d suggest you take them up on their invitation. What’ve you got to lose??

In Christ,
MinM

 

[Aramis]

So I did go last night and honestly, I did not care for it at all. I think it was just a culture shock though, not that any part of it was bad or objectionable - just very different.

One of the previous posters was correct, the chanting was quite odd (the fact that they chanted the entire hour). The priest wore all black, including a black headpiece with his back to everyone for a portion of the service. At some points people touched the floor with their hand after crossing themselves and then some parts of the service, everyone laid completely on the floor.
One part of the service they did the kyrie 40 times in a row.

But! The point of going was to expose myself to something I have never experience and it definitely did that. The people were very friendly but I don’t think I’ll be returning.
They invited me to visit on Sunday so I could see the divine liturgy service but I am hesitant.

Sunday liturgy should be red vestments, no prostrations, and entirely sung as well.

As for the priest with his back to you: that is normative in all Catholic rites except the Roman OF and the Maronite current liturgy; even in both of those, it’s allowed to do them “ad orientam” (“to [the] east”).

The 40 Kyries is a standard part of byzantine paraliturgical prayer. Even us Ruthenians do it. (Tho’ we’ve been known to do it as 10 English, 10 Slavonic, 10 Greek, 10 Spanish in some parishes.) It’s part of most of the hours when taken as standalone services.

 

[Symeon]

So I did go last night and honestly, I did not care for it at all. I think it was just a culture shock though, not that any part of it was bad or objectionable - just very different.

One of the previous posters was correct, the chanting was quite odd (the fact that they chanted the entire hour). The priest wore all black, including a black headpiece with his back to everyone for a portion of the service. At some points people touched the floor with their hand after crossing themselves and then some parts of the service, everyone laid completely on the floor.
One part of the service they did the kyrie 40 times in a row.

But! The point of going was to expose myself to something I have never experience and it definitely did that. The people were very friendly but I don’t think I’ll be returning.
They invited me to visit on Sunday so I could see the divine liturgy service but I am hesitant.

Glad you had the chance to experience the Melkite vespers. I suspect that the style of chant - the Arabic and Greek melodies - may have been the most off-putting element. The various (Byzantine) Eastern Catholic churches (Melkite, Ukrainian, Ruthenian, Russian, etc…) each have different styles of chant. To the western ear the Melkite chant may just sound rather strange at first, but with more exposure and understanding one can come to appreciate its mysterious beauty.

The simple black robe (called a riassa) and hat the priest wore - that’s just part of the priest’s normal vestments for vespers.

It’s not that the priest had his back to the people, but rather that the priest and the people are all facing the Lord and worshiping him together. The bowing, continuous chanting, facing east together, etc… this is how Christians have worshiped from the beginning.

The laying down on the floor, i.e. making prostrations, is a practice done typically during Lent, and was probably accompanied by something called the Prayer of St. Ephrem, a prayer of repentance we pray every day during the great fast (the translation may have been different, but this is what we use in my parish):

O Lord and Master of my Life,
Take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk.

(prostration)

But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to thy servant.

(prostration)

Yea O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art thou unto the ages of ages.

(prostration)