Vestments

[Pious_Mat]

One thing I’ve been wondering lately is what happened to the usage of old mass vestments? Why do we never see the fiddleback chasuble in the Novus Ordo? What happened to the maniple?

I know that the fiddleback chasuble is allowed at a Novus Ordo mass, is the scrapular chasuble allowed in a Tridentine mass?

I’ve been looking for resources for priestly vestments, but other than the Dappled Phots Blog, I haven’t really found any.

 

[AJV]

One thing I’ve been wondering lately is what happened to the usage of old mass vestments? Why do we never see the fiddleback chasuble in the Novus Ordo? What happened to the maniple?

I know that the fiddleback chasuble is allowed at a Novus Ordo mass, is the scrapular chasuble allowed in a Tridentine mass?

The Gothic style is allowed at the Tridentine if it has a large cross at the back. It was not required according ot Tres Abhinc Annos (1967) an when the revised vesting prayers were issued, the prayer for the maniple was left out, as was a reference to it in the GIRM.

 

[chicago]

Often they got sold off, given away, or thrown away. So, sometimes, they can be found in antique shops, if they got salvaged.

What was colloqually known as “sacristy fires” were also somewhat common, with priests who didn’t like such “old stuff” burning it to ashes.

Plainly, most of these treasures just don’t exist, anymore, having been sent to their ruin in the silly season which was the 70s and 80s.

 

[lak611]

Often they got sold off, given away, or thrown away. So, sometimes, they can be found in antique shops, if they got salvaged.

What was colloqually known as “sacristy fires” were also somewhat common, with priests who didn’t like such “old stuff” burning it to ashes.

Plainly, most of these treasures just don’t exist, anymore, having been sent to their ruin in the silly season which was the 70s and 80s.

They are available on eBay.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

The fiddle back chasuble was frequently referred to as the Roman Chasuble and the newer style as the Greek Chasuble. As I recall the it was on its way out in the early 50’s. Of course at that time they were made of fine materials and quite graceful, which still happens on occasion.

 

[jmdsc]

I am very interested in the information you have all given above. Could you please let me know what your resources are?

Thank you.

 

[AJV]

The Gothic style is allowed at the Tridentine if it has a large cross at the back.

It was not required according ot Tres Abhinc Annos (1967) an when the revised vesting prayers were issued, the prayer for the maniple was left out, as was a reference to it in the GIRM.

“It” referring to the maniple not the cross on the chasuble, sorry for the mistake.

 

[Pious_Mat]

But why get rid of the maniple? It is a very important vestment that symbolizes the sorrow that inherently accompanies our time on Earth (not necessarily meaning that life is awful, but that in comparison to Heaven, is quite depressing).

What about the Roman Chasuble? Was it phased out merely as a matter of taste? Again, I’d really like to know the reasoning behind this?

And what about my favourite part of vesting, the Amice? Nothing annoys me quite so much as seeing a priest’s collar underneath his vestments. Was this too just for “simplification”? If that’s the reasoning, I’m a little disappointed with His Holiness Paul VI. “To make it easier” is not a very good reason to do away with vestments of great symbolic signifigance.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

But why get rid of the maniple? It is a very important vestment that symbolizes the sorrow that inherently accompanies our time on Earth (not necessarily meaning that life is awful, but that in comparison to Heaven, is quite depressing).

I think it may be clumsy to manipulate.

What about the Roman Chasuble? Was it phased out merely as a matter of taste? Again, I’d really like to know the reasoning behind this?

Taste I think. As I posted earlier, it started to dissappear in the early 50’s, well before VII.

And what about my favourite part of vesting, the Amice? Nothing annoys me quite so much as seeing a priest’s collar underneath his vestments. Was this too just for “simplification”? If that’s the reasoning, I’m a little disappointed with His Holiness Paul VI. “To make it easier” is not a very good reason to do away with vestments of great symbolic signifigance.

I think it is still required if any of the celebrant’s regular clothes will show otherwise. I only know one local priest [neighboring parish] who uses it. He is very observant of all rubrics, even has a complete set of dalmatics for his deacon.

 

[Satriale]

The fiddle back chasuble was frequently referred to as the Roman Chasuble and the newer style as the Greek Chasuble. As I recall the it was on its way out in the early 50’s. Of course at that time they were made of fine materials and quite graceful, which still happens on occasion.

No. What you call the “Greek” chasuble predate the fiddlebacks.

 

[Satriale]

But why get rid of the maniple? It is a very important vestment that symbolizes the sorrow that inherently accompanies our time on Earth (not necessarily meaning that life is awful, but that in comparison to Heaven, is quite depressing).

The maniple’s genesis is that of a handkerchief – to wipe the brow or nose of the priest. A functional garment.

What about the Roman Chasuble? Was it phased out merely as a matter of taste? Again, I’d really like to know the reasoning behind this?

Probably because fiddlebacks look very unappealing when a priest is celebrating the Mass versus populum. All their splendor is on the priest’s back, not his front. They were not phased-out – they just stopped selling.

And what about my favourite part of vesting, the Amice? Nothing annoys me quite so much as seeing a priest’s collar underneath his vestments. Was this too just for “simplification”? If that’s the reasoning, I’m a little disappointed with His Holiness Paul VI. “To make it easier” is not a very good reason to do away with vestments of great symbolic signifigance.

No prohibition to wearing an amice. In fact, a priest should use one if his non-liturgical garb is showing. They lost their common use when albs began to be offered with high collars that covered the non-liturgical garb.

 

[Joannm]

No prohibition to wearing an amice. In fact, a priest should use one if his non-liturgical garb is showing. They lost their common use when albs began to be offered with high collars that covered the non-liturgical garb.

there are more modern versions of the amice which is more like a dickey with snaps or velcro in the back. Our deacons has one.

 

[cue]

No. What you call the “Greek” chasuble predate the fiddlebacks.

I’ve usually heard these referred to as ‘gothic.’ While the chasuble was originally much larger, it was a piece of secular attire. As it became more and more explicity and charatistically liturgical, it became more beautifully decorated and trimmed and shortened developing into what is called the Roman chasuble. The gothic chasubles popular now are hardly similar to the older chasubles in decoration, construction, and style. They are only similar in size.

 

[Sure]

The gothic chasuble is very old and used to be very ornate. There are some who speculate that the custom of having the server/deacon/whoever holding the chasuble during the elevation (in the EF) comes from a time when the priest wore decorated (heavy) gothic chasubles. Actually, I have seen that when Archbishop Burke celebrates a high Mass the deacon holds up the side of his gothic (and heavy looking) chasuble while His Excellency incenses the altar.

It could be that the Roman chasuble fell out of favor just as styles change. My personal opinion is that they look like decorated sandwich boards or even baby’s bibs which is kind of funny. To me the gothic looks more distinguished and grand.

The amice is still required if the priest or deacon is not wearing an alb that covers his collar. Many albs now are designed to cover the neck in which case the amice is not necessary.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

My biggest beef with modern vestments is that the priest doesn’t have a cross on his back, but all requirements being met, a chasuble is a chasuble, so a priest can wear Roman or Gothic at his preference. I actually saw a picture of Cdl. O’Malley vested for Mass in his titular church and he was wearing a gorgeous green Roman vestment set. The cathedral clergy in Innsbruck, Austria, often if not usually wore fiddlebacks during my stint there in '03-'04. Generally, Catholic Europe has retained a much more traditional look to its liturgy than the US, and these sorts of things are fairly common.

 

[lak611]

What about something like this? It comes with stole, maniple and chalice veil. Gothic vestments can look nice and traditional.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Gothic: What my granddaughters call “tablecloths with a hole in the middle”.

Fiddleback (Roman, Barroque): What my granddaughters call “Fancy placemats”.

They are little foodies.

 

[mystified]

Related question:
May the “Gothic” style be worn for the Extraordinary Mass?
I prefer the more graceful flowing style to the almost sandwich board style, while favoring the “Old Mass”, or at least the later edition done with reverence.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Related question:
May the “Gothic” style be worn for the Extraordinary Mass?
I prefer the more graceful flowing style to the almost sandwich board style, while favoring the “Old Mass”, or at least the later edition done with reverence.

Either may be worn for both the OF and the EF.

 

[Caesar]

I think the choice of vestments depends heavily on the other artistic styles at play in the Mass. For example, in a baroque church, a nice baroque fiddleback chasuble is suitable. I always found that the gothic chasubles go well with gothic churches.