Vestments

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Are you aware of anything similar being written about the maniple? Omitting reference to it is not the same thing as suppressing it.

James
When the list is explicitly what vestments are allowed, not mentioning it is suppressing it.

There is also a reason WHY it is no longer used; it (and the Alb and tunicle) were the vestments of the subdeacon; it was the roman subdeacon’s symbol, with the tunicle or without, over the Alb.

When the subdeacon was supressed for the Roman Church (see Vatican II post-conciliar documents, Vol I., DSP press) the distinction gained at the subdeaconate was no longer needed.

It’s not forbidden except with the new missal, which lists what is allowed and how it is worn. Alb, cincture optional, hood, false hood, or amice required, stole and chasuble.
GIRM p37:
  1. In the sacristy, the sacred vestments (cf. nos. 337-341) for the priest, the deacon, and other ministers are to be prepared according to the various forms of celebration:
    a. for the priest: the alb, the stole, and the chasuble;
    b. for the deacon: the alb, the stole, and the dalmatic; the dalmatic may be omitted, however, either out of necessity or on account of a lesser degree of solemnity;
    c. for the other ministers: albs or other lawfully approved attire.96
    All who wear an alb should use a cincture and an amice unless, due to the form of the alb, they are not needed.
    When there is an Entrance Procession, the following are also to be prepared: the Book of the Gospels; on Sundays and festive days, the thurible and the boat with incense, if incense is used; the cross to be carried in procession; and candlesticks with lighted candles.
 
I can’t see any reason for the fiddlebacks except that they were easier to maintain (if a priest sits on a bench, he need not sit on the chasuble at all) and cooler to wear. In fact, that’s the reason they were created.

While the back of a fiddleback looks nice, they look rather hideous from the front – or at least most do. I was thumbing through Henri Daniel-Rops’ This is the Mass earlier this evening. My copy was published in 1958 and has some gorgeous pictures of Archbishop Sheen celebrating the Mass. He is wearing a beautiful Gothic-style chasuble despite the date.
While the two concerns you list certainly seem like they could have played a role in the development of the fiddleback, I also thought a main reason for their evolution was to provide greater freedom of movement to the priest. As ever-more-fancy chasubles became stiffer and heavier, they slowly got cut back to help the priest move his arms. The popular opinion among liturgists seems to be to decry this as one of the worst excrescences of Baroque decadence, but for those of us whose main experience of Gothic chasubles has been the polyester poncho, it takes a lot of work to make Gothic look good. For instance, the chasuble you cite on Abp. Sheen reminds me way to much of bad vestments. When I first got the book I thought “I suppose that thing is made of nice materials and all, but the decorations are a real turn-off.”
Further, the revised General Instruction of the Roman Missal does not specify the maniple as being a vestment proper to the priest celebrant at Mass.

There was no “failing to mention it.” It’s clear from the GIRM that it’s no longer part of the vestments proper to the priest celebrant at Mass.
I am not so sure. If you look at the publications like the Ecclesiatical Review especially at the time of the 1960’s when there were major changes to the rubrics, or new ceremonial guides (like “The Celebration of the Mass"or Synopsis Variationem in editione typica Missalis Romani”) rubricists did hold that if an explicit reference formerly made in the body of rubrics was removed, then it was to be regarded as suppressed. For example, the obligation that the priest cover his head with a biretta, or the bow toward the crucifix. Or even which Masses were allowed as votives. Of course there is a bit of difficulty in applying this to the 1969 missal because it is completely different rubrics.

At the same time, someone once posted that Cardinal Arinze said it was alright and the CDW is entrusted with interpretations.
I’ve got to steer a middle position on the maniple. On the one hand, I don’t think an argument from silence suffices to prove its suppression. I say that for two reasons: 1) experience has shown that sometimes silence simply means “We don’t feel the need to mention something that everyone should be able to assume,” as when the Vatican had to tell people after the publication of the 1983 CIC that yes, you are still excommunicated for being a Freemason even though we no longer make explicit reference to the group; 2) As the maniple is put on before Mass and its use does not interfere with anything whatsoever, it seems impossible to obrogate its use and thus I think supressing it should probably take some explicit form.

On the other hand, while silence alone doesn’t quite cut it for me, I believe there was a ruling made at the switch to the NO that certain practices no longer mentioned were, in fact, not allowed to be used in the new form of the rite, specifically the old manner of incensation. While I think this decision, though, was not an authentic interpretation of the law in general, I don’t think it can create any sort of binding precedent for ruling on the use of other elements.

Still, even if the maniple were indeed suppressed beyond a doubt, it seems to be an eminently tolerable custom if communities should choose to create and enforce it, so if a parish wants their priest to wear a maniple I think bishops should sanction it (as a custom contra legem with force of law).
 
So what is the significance and liturgical meaning behind the Maniple? I imagine it was given in one of the old books about the Vestments during the 40’s, 50’s, or thereabouts.
 
So what is the significance and liturgical meaning behind the Maniple? I imagine it was given in one of the old books about the Vestments during the 40’s, 50’s, or thereabouts.
The maniple began as a handkerchief for the priest to wipe-away sweat. Only later did it become ceremonial.
 
…For instance, the chasuble you cite on Abp. Sheen reminds me way to much of bad vestments. When I first got the book I thought “I suppose that thing is made of nice materials and all, but the decorations are a real turn-off…”
I think it’s a gorgeous vestment. Yes it would look terribly gaudy if executed in cheap material, but it was not and does not. It’s also certainly not for everyday – or even every Sunday.

They wear one on special Masses on EWTN that is fairly similar – right down to the wonderful Chi-Rho trim.
 
Rome is the ultimate arbiter of disputed points of rubrics.

The maniple was indeed made optional in 1967. It was never explicitly suppressed.

The chalice veil is optional, though the deliberative subjunctive of the rubric in the 2002 Missal most people don’t use encourages its use. Most places don’t know what a chalice veil is. The burse is not mentioned in 2002, though some ordinary form liturgies use it. I once witnessed an ordinary Mass where Cardinal Arinze used the veil and burse.

There are better things to worry about than if Father wears a maniple in an ordinary form liturgy. A dubium could be sent to Rome by anyone who cared. They do answer dubia. Luckily, the Curia has wider interpretations of liturgical law than some here might think. In every dubium I have sent, the responses have always been lucid, liberal, and in keeping with the traditions of the liturgy.
 
On the other hand, while silence alone doesn’t quite cut it for me, I believe there was a ruling made at the switch to the NO that certain practices no longer mentioned were, in fact, not allowed to be used in the new form of the rite, specifically the old manner of incensation. While I think this decision, though, was not an authentic interpretation of the law in general, I don’t think it can create any sort of binding precedent for ruling on the use of other elements.
It must never be forgotten that the Missal of Pope Paul VI has, since 1970, supplanted the one called improperly “the Missal of St. Pius V,” and completely so, in both texts and rubrics. When the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI say nothing or say little on particulars in some places, it is not to be inferred that the former rite should be observed. Therefore, the multiple and complex gestures for incensation as prescribed in the former Missal (see Missale Romanum, Vatican Polyglot Press, 1962: Ritus servandus VIII and Ordo incensandi pp. LXXXLXXXIII) are not to be resumed.
Again:
As noted in the Reply no. 2 of the comments in Not 14 (1978) 301, when the rubrics of the Missal of Paul VI say nothing, it is not to be thereby inferred that the former rubrics must be followed (see no. 51 above). The reformed Missal does not supplement but supplants the former Missal. The old Missal at the Agnus Dei had the directive “striking his breast three times” and the same for the Domine, non sum dignus. But because the new Missal says nothing on this point (Ordo Missae, nos. 131 and 133), there is no reason for requiring any gesture to be added to these invocations: Not 14 (1978) 534-535, no. 10.
I think though the decisions of the CDW are quite subjective at times. In the 1970’s they were more concerned with separating the two liturgies AFAP and cutting of any continuity. I’m sure that if someone had asked them then they would have said a firm “No” twenty five times.

At the present, especially in the light of the 2002 Missal which restored many features of the liturgy, they may be better disposed to give an affirmative response. Perhaps someone should take AlexV’s advice and write to them.Pity they don’t use email. 😉
 
I have seen websites selling vestments that are called “semi-gothic”. What is the difference between gothic and semi-gothic vestments?
 
Again:

I think though the decisions of the CDW are quite subjective at times. In the 1970’s they were more concerned with separating the two liturgies AFAP and cutting of any continuity. I’m sure that if someone had asked them then they would have said a firm “No” twenty five times.

At the present, especially in the light of the 2002 Missal which restored many features of the liturgy, they may be better disposed to give an affirmative response. Perhaps someone should take AlexV’s advice and write to them.Pity they don’t use email. 😉
Those were precisely the responsa I was thinking of, but they still contain the sort of language I was envisioning that doesn’t rule out the maniple. They say we shouldn’t “infer” that we “must” follow the old rubrics; OTOH, beyond saying that the old incensation shouldn’t be resumed they don’t explicitly reprobate anything either. It’s classic Vatican speak, which leaves wiggle room for continuing old practices.

I think AlexV made a good point of calling Vatican responsa liberal - they typically tend to be far more generous and lenient in their interpretation of rubrics than many Americans would expect.
 
I have seen websites selling vestments that are called “semi-gothic”. What is the difference between gothic and semi-gothic vestments?
Gothic goes down to about the top of the shin. Semi-gothic is a bit lower.

Gothic style is something of a drape. if you lay it out on the floor, it would be oval shaped.
 
Gothic goes down to about the top of the shin. Semi-gothic is a bit lower.

Gothic style is something of a drape. if you lay it out on the floor, it would be oval shaped.
What shape is the semi-gothic if you lay it out on the floor?
 
So the only real difference is that the semi-gothic is longer than the gothic?
Yup. It is about four inches longer, I think. Check out the links below. I just purchased the green lined semi-gothic chasuble set for a friend. To compare among the gothic/semi-gothic/traditional chasubles, click on the various images.

Veritas Polska is a distributor. Leaflet Missal Co. is a retailer out of St. Paul, Minn. If you want to buy something, call in. They saved me $55 from what the website offered.

leafletonline.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=117_139_141

veritaspolska.com/?page=church_goods
 
So the only real difference is that the semi-gothic is longer than the gothic?
A few semi-gothic chasubles are ovals with the narrow ends cut off, and so present a uniform hem at the legs.
 
Yup. It is about four inches longer, I think. Check out the links below. I just purchased the green lined semi-gothic chasuble set for a friend. To compare among the gothic/semi-gothic/traditional chasubles, click on the various images.

Veritas Polska is a distributor. Leaflet Missal Co. is a retailer out of St. Paul, Minn. If you want to buy something, call in. They saved me $55 from what the website offered.

leafletonline.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=117_139_141

veritaspolska.com/?page=church_goods
I saw the links. The semi-gothic was 4 inches longer. The green lined semi-gothic chasuble set is gorgeous! I’m sure your priest friend is very happy. 🙂
 
I saw the links. The semi-gothic was 4 inches longer. The green lined semi-gothic chasuble set is gorgeous! I’m sure your priest friend is very happy. 🙂
I sure hope so. He liked the idea that the set included the maniple, burse, and chalice veil. It is a bit on the expensive side, but until my wife and/or I master the art of sewing, this is the best option.
 
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