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jam070406
Guest
Maybe if we listen really close we can hear someone yell, “throw your hands in the air and wave em like you just don’t care”
Although, I can’t speak Italian.
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Although, I can’t speak Italian.
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maurin
Guest
And that’s the crux of the issue. What really gets my goat is that the conservatives who are so willing todefend anything that isn’t overtly heretical, regardless of its appropriateness.
To say that what that video depicted is innoccuous is a sad commentary on the mindset of todays Catholics. When the Sanctuary of our Lord is deemed acceptable for any popular entertainment even masquerading as songs of praise-- whatever that means, I mean the Magnificat seems to be a more appropriate song-- we need to as a people reevaluate what we’re doing.
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iluvburpees
Guest
Childish, immature nonsense.
Stuff like this makes me all the more grateful for those who fought it.
Stuff like this makes me all the more grateful for those who fought it.
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iluvburpees
Guest
So “one” Blessed Sacrament is for prayer and adoration, and “another” is for balloon parties with waving arms and nonsensical modern music? I don’t see how this makes sense.
This is quite shocking. You are comparing the Stations and the Rosary with this modern trash? You have GOT to be kidding Newt…
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iluvburpees
Guest
Continue the rant, I’m lovin’ it!Phew, I’m so glad I’m not the only one who finds modern wedding dresses super tacky. Strapless looks BAD, period! Long sleeved dresses look so classy and elegant, and are far more comfortable, IMHO, plus now you look like a real woman worth marrying. And that’s not even getting into what to wear in front of Our Lord!.. ok my rant is complete
Seriously, I agree 100% with you. The long sleeve dresses are not only modest (which is a big point), but they are simply more pretty. And they remind the to-be husband that his wife is supposed to be like Mary, the spotless bride of the Holy Ghost, and like the Church, the spotless bride of Christ.
Look at this link: advancedchristianity.com/Pages/MPC/MPC_000A_Contents.htm
Those dresses, especially in the right picture, are far, far nicer than those of today. Oh, and the lessons in that link are phenomenal as well, in case you’re interested.
End of my rant, back on topic.
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palmas855
Guest
In all fairness this thing, whatever it was seemed no different than most Pentecostal services or most Lifeteen activities for that matter. As with the celebrated Irish 15 minute Mass, as long as you get em into Church, so what?
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JReducation
Guest
This is not a mass and none of the action is taking place on the sanctuary. I looked at this very closely, as I know this church quite well from my days as a student in Rome. This is a praise and worship service. Praise and worship services have been held at St. John Lateran and at St. Peter’s since the 1980s. It was Pope John Paul who invited the Catholic Cahristmatics to meet at both places because he wanted to ensure that the teaching would be orthodox. At the time, there was a strong influence from American Evangelicals in their teaching. This was a way of preserving the beauty of the praise and worship while protecting the faithful from false theology. Praise and worship was approved by the Holy Father provided that pastors took great care that the teaching is consistent with Catholic theology.
We have to take great care that we are no unkind to others who pray differently from us. It is also important to avoid ridiculing the spirituality of another . The Holy Spirit brings people to prayer through many different ways. The reason for the diversity in forms of prayer is precisely because we human beings are very different from each other.
Let us not forget the the reason the Benedictines split into so many branches was precisely over the issue of forms of prayer. The Church said that all of the variations introduced by the different Benedictine orders were good. That’s how we got the Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese along with the original Benedictines. At the time all of the other movements within the Benedictine family were seen as suspect. Some monasteries went as far as burning some monks and imprisoning others until St. Bernard protested to the pope. Today, all the different forms of Benedictine prayer are taken for granted by us, because they have been with us for so long that they appear very familiar and very natural. But this was not always the case. At the time, there was a great deal of ridicule and hurtful things said and done to each other. Let us not repeat the mistakes of our anscestors.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
We have to take great care that we are no unkind to others who pray differently from us. It is also important to avoid ridiculing the spirituality of another . The Holy Spirit brings people to prayer through many different ways. The reason for the diversity in forms of prayer is precisely because we human beings are very different from each other.
Let us not forget the the reason the Benedictines split into so many branches was precisely over the issue of forms of prayer. The Church said that all of the variations introduced by the different Benedictine orders were good. That’s how we got the Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese along with the original Benedictines. At the time all of the other movements within the Benedictine family were seen as suspect. Some monasteries went as far as burning some monks and imprisoning others until St. Bernard protested to the pope. Today, all the different forms of Benedictine prayer are taken for granted by us, because they have been with us for so long that they appear very familiar and very natural. But this was not always the case. At the time, there was a great deal of ridicule and hurtful things said and done to each other. Let us not repeat the mistakes of our anscestors.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Melchior_1
Guest
I just saw this now, not sure how I missed it.Phew, I’m so glad I’m not the only one who finds modern wedding dresses super tacky. Strapless looks BAD, period! Long sleeved dresses look so classy and elegant, and are far more comfortable, IMHO, plus now you look like a real woman worth marrying. And that’s not even getting into what to wear in front of Our Lord!.. ok my rant is complete
My wife’s strapless dress was quite modest, thanks. And decidedly not tacky. And I’ve got a baby on the way that proves, among other things, my wife NEVER “looks bad”.
My wife is the very definition of a Proverbs 31 woman. And is modest in dress consistently, a pillar of example for the youth that I teach at my Church.
You can put as many smiles and whatever have you on your post as you want. You can pay your lip service and express whatever you want. But at the end of the day you just insulted my wife, the woman who completes me and is current carrying our first child.
I had several women who wanted a relationship with me. I chose my wife because she was the most worthy of them all, her value beyond all treasures I could be given.
Am I taking this too personally? Maybe. But it’s my wife. And that was our day, which we held in the Church I’ve spent so much time at over seven years with family and friends. Yeah, I suppose I’d take it personally.
But once again, what we have here is a “traditionalist” who has decided they know exactly the hearts and minds of others while taking up their virtual sword and playing the role of Internet Keyboard Crusader. You don’t know me, you don’t know my wife, and you sure don’t know how orthodox we are. But don’t let that stop you from calling the Piety Police on us.
You can say what you want, and preach about things looking “classy”. But you can’t spell “classy” without “class”, and you’ve just shown you have little.
How does this all relate to the OP? People are quick to judge. Without knowing you judged my wife without even knowing I have a wife, without knowing what she looked like at our wedding.
Sort of like how people were quick to rush to conclusions in this thread before Brother JR pointed out why these things happened.
Of course, now that people will see "It was Pope John Paul who invited the Catholic Cahristmatics to meet at both places because he wanted to ensure that the teaching would be orthodox. " they will claim “see, I knew those Charismatics were up to no good!”.
I give it two posts until we see that. Maybe three.
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franklinf
Guest
Exactly.
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giuseppeTO
Guest
I couldn’t disagree with you (and the previous Pontiff) more.This is not a mass and none of the action is taking place on the sanctuary. I looked at this very closely, as I know this church quite well from my days as a student in Rome. This is a praise and worship service. Praise and worship services have been held at St. John Lateran and at St. Peter’s since the 1980s. It was Pope John Paul who invited the Catholic Cahristmatics to meet at both places because he wanted to ensure that the teaching would be orthodox. At the time, there was a strong influence from American Evangelicals in their teaching. This was a way of preserving the beauty of the praise and worship while protecting the faithful from false theology. Praise and worship was approved by the Holy Father provided that pastors took great care that the teaching is consistent with Catholic theology.
We have to take great care that we are no unkind to others who pray differently from us. It is also important to avoid ridiculing the spirituality of another . The Holy Spirit brings people to prayer through many different ways. The reason for the diversity in forms of prayer is precisely because we human beings are very different from each other.
Let us not forget the the reason the Benedictines split into so many branches was precisely over the issue of forms of prayer. The Church said that all of the variations introduced by the different Benedictine orders were good. That’s how we got the Trappists, Cistercians, Camaldolese along with the original Benedictines. At the time all of the other movements within the Benedictine family were seen as suspect. Some monasteries went as far as burning some monks and imprisoning others until St. Bernard protested to the pope. Today, all the different forms of Benedictine prayer are taken for granted by us, because they have been with us for so long that they appear very familiar and very natural. But this was not always the case. At the time, there was a great deal of ridicule and hurtful things said and done to each other. Let us not repeat the mistakes of our anscestors.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
- Unlike any other devotion outside of Mass, you are creating an atmosphere where everyone else who is there to pray or meditate must leave because you are going to drag in loudspeakers and get really loud and distracting and make it impossible to do anything else. The church should not be like that.
- It promotes a disrespectful and circus-like atmosphere in church and that relaxation leads to a convention-like atmosphere with glad-handing, back slapping, and loud chattering before and after.
- There are no bounds or limits. We just saw the video of the hip-hop group doing the Michael Jackson moon-walk in the sanctuary - that is the way they praise. In L.A., we have half-naked men doing an interpretive dance in the sanctuary, that is how they praise. All of these, whether in Mass or not, detract from the focus of the church and why we go there to pray instead of the library - the True Presence of Christ The King. What happens when the way I praise is to rap? What happens when the way I praise is to freak-dance? What happens when the way I praise is to play Jimi Hendricks licks real loud on my electric guitar? Show me the limits! … and PLEASE don’t tell me you will leave it up to the individual pastors or even bishops. The fact that we have this garbage already going on proves that they are absolutely incapable of any competent decision making in this respect.
- Charismatic worship was condemned as false spirituality until Pope John Paul II. It centers praise on man and what makes him feel good, which is mistaken as an infusion of the Holy Ghost, and brings about the Protestant mindset that created it. In our (diocesan) parish in San Diego, we had a rock/praise band who all graduated from Franciscan U in Steubenville and they brought into our Mass such Protestant staples as speaking in tongues at the Consecration and getting “slain in the spirit” at the prayer service after Mass. That whole University should be excommunicated IMHO for the foolishness they brought into the church and spread throughout the US.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Do you also have problems with music by the likes of Handel, Mozart, Bach, etc. being played in concert in a church? Because that music was at the time the secular pop music and it was routine to perform in a church outside of liturgical services – many times as part of prayer services (such as an oratorio).
Now, I’m not saying that this form of prayer and music is everyone’s cup of tea (it certainly is NOT mine!), but let’s not crucify those for partaking in a form of non-liturgical prayer that is approved by the Church.
Now, I’m not saying that this form of prayer and music is everyone’s cup of tea (it certainly is NOT mine!), but let’s not crucify those for partaking in a form of non-liturgical prayer that is approved by the Church.
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giuseppeTO
Guest
I am saying that all concerts belong in concert halls, regardless of the content. We must reserve church for prayer and meditation before the Blessed Sacrament. Why is that so hard to understand? There is certain a place for music in Mass but music, for music’s sake should be played where music is played for music’s sake … in a concert hall.
The hootenanny in question is beyond the bounds of a concert. But, likewise, Mozart’s Mass in E Flat should be played and enjoyed in a symphony hall so that those who choose to pray and meditate before the True Presence can do so without having to hear a symphony or be subjected to a Shriners Convention.
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maurin
Guest
The reason, I think, why it so hard to understand that the church is to be reserved for prayer and meditation before the Blessed Sacrament is because in general the mindset we have watched develop these past decades has shifted far from a theocentric one to an anthropocentric one. This is clear, I think, in some of the responses on this thread and the For Men Only thread.
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pnewton
Guest
What Blessed Sacrament? This was a concert, not adoration. This thread is the epitome of strawman attacks.
Religious concerts do have two things in common and it is that commonality that I am referring to. Namely, they both are not the Mass. Second, they both are a form of worship.
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pnewton
Guest
Ordo of what exactly? An order of what? Does not the term stand for order of Mass? This is not a Mass.
Again.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
This is not a Mass.
I can not believe how much I have been insulted and criticized for not buying the lie that this reflects somehow on Mass. I have no problem defending what is right in the Church, but this tilting and windmills and strawman war is beyond my ken.
Rather than a continuing swap of opinions, let me ask, does anyone know where the Catholic Church has forbidden either concerts or balloons inside a Church? Those are the two things we know are happening. Does anyone have anything concrete on the rules of our faith to show this is wrong?
If not, let us obey the precept to speak where the Church speaks and (I know this is hard for some of you) charity in all else.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
The problem is that this doesn’t sync with hundreds of years of Catholic praxis. Performance of musical art within a church outside of Mass has been a common occurrence since at least the High Renaissance. In some musical areas it’s almost required – for example, for the performance of non-sacral organ music (where outside of a church is an organ readily found?).
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iluvburpees
Guest
I stand corrected. When you spoke of “another” chapel with the Blessed Sacrament for adoration, it seemed like you were saying that this one also had the Blessed Sacrament, just not for quiet prayer.
However, the thing in the center of the altar is hard to ignore. It certainly appears to be a Monstrance, and I’ve never seen the Monstrance just sitting on the altar like that.
Even if Christ is not truly present, the problem is still there. The Church is the Church: the “house of prayer.” It is not to be made a den of thieves, nor a place for wavy hand movements and pop music for that matter. This is not respectful adoraration for the King of Kings. It seems more like “I’m having a good time,” “feel-good” activities. Yes, I am judging these actions. And no, they are not worthy of God.
This “worship” as seen in the videos is not worthy of Christ the King. It is worthy of a dance hall, or possibly a group of chimpanzees, but not Our Lord.
I half-expected the giant statues of the Saints in the Church to shake their heads or maybe come to life and stop the nonsense taking place in their Master’s house.
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giuseppeTO
Guest
I have never heard of it but am always ready to be educated. Can you give some references?
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giuseppeTO
Guest
Newt, calm down. We understand your opinion that it is not a Mass although it is impossible to tell whether it is or isn’t. But we are ALL ready to concede that fact.
I did help you out with an alternative to the term Novus Ordo - Modern Church. To clarify, the “novus Ordo” is not necessarily a pejorative term but it appears to have become a common term for the New Order, taken of course from the Novus Ordo Missae. This new order is the mindset and mentality that has pervaded the church since the Novus Ordo Missae was promulgated and engenders all of the agorniamento, liturgical experimentation, and refocus to a man-centered orientation of what was heretofore God-centered. Hence, the new order.
Tell me where the Catholic Church has specifically forbidden in church:
Horses on the altar
Playing Texas hold 'em during Mass or after Mass in the pews
A Rolling Stones Concert on the High Altar of St. Peter’s
Honestly, there should be some things that you would not need specific rules to avoid. Charismatic looniness has been practiced by protestants for more than a century and condemned as false spirituality… It was NEVER done at St. John Lateran prior to JPII.
Finally, no one should be insulting you, Newt, and I hope I haven’t.
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iluvburpees
Guest
EXACTLY. This is what is so frustrating about Modern Catholics. I like the comparison to the frog and the boiling water. It does not take a rocket scientist to see that these “little things” (abuses) would make any of the great saints run in horror. All you have to do is ask yourself, "Would St. so-and-so have approved of this? Think of the great contemplative saints. Think of St. Getrude. Think of the religious in the contemplative life. Think of quiet adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Think of beautiful Chant and Polyphony being sung to God in praise.
Then look at…this.
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