video games?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Good points. I would say sports is not a waste of time because of the physical exercise involved, and the social interaction. I guess video games could fulfill the second of those two, sometimes. But unless other people are actually present, I’m not sure it’s a real way to be social.

I used to run a net cafe, you’d be surprised at how many gangs of gamers had stormed into my store. Gaming is one of the primary hobbies here in my country and you’ll often see a lot of tough guys standing outside computer cafes, talking, discussing tactics, as well as recalling funny/awkward in-game moments.

I like Brooklyn’s answer (above).
For example, the Lord of the Rings is a fantasy book, but it’s a work that conveys truth through mythical metaphor, so we can see it as a kind of learning.

Well if you’re going to go by that logic, you’d be surprised at some of the things role-playing and MMO games can teach you. I for one have learned how to manage real-world money from my experience handling in-game currency. My rule-o-thumb of not biting off more than I can chew was a result of me having a really poor leveling plan when I was still a noob. Strategy games like Starcraft can help you exercise your sense of foresight, tactical thinking, and resource management skills.

 

[Brooklyn]

Thanks for proving my point. And yes, the logic is believable. Prayer is also a means some get their “spiritual high” hence the escapism. You of all people wouldn’t deny the peace of meditating in front of the Blessed Sacrament would you? And from my observation of the saints, they are even less likely.

You put your mind in a state that is disconnected from reality and by reality, I mean empirical reality. As much as I’m Catholic, as much as I’m a theist, I face the facts. The reality described by the faith is not the reality as the word is now commonly understood. When people say ‘reality’, you realize it’s hardly ever something spoken in a happy tone? When we have problems, when we undergo stress, and when our lives just pretty much suck, we call that reality and people would do any means to get their minds off it all be it via video games or prayer.

Prayer puts you in touch with the only true reality - God. Everything in this world - you, me and video games - are all passing away. We are all transitory. God is eternity. Everything in this world, all of the materialism, is the disconnected reality. Your comments make me think you have never engaged in true prayer, It is not a drug, it is not an illusion. It is not just about being “happy.” Mother Teresa was in the dark night of the soul for 50 years. She derived no happiness whatsoever from prayer that entire time. But she never stopped praying. I try to spend as much time as possible in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Often I struggle to keep my thoughts connected. It is often hard work for me. But far from taking my minds off the problems I face, it helps me face them with strength and understanding.

Your comments have no basis in reality whatsoever. With all due respect, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Comparing prayer and video games seems almost satanic to me, the devil’s way of trying to take people away from God.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Good points. I would say sports is not a waste of time because of the physical exercise involved, and the social interaction. I guess video games could fulfill the second of those two, sometimes. But unless other people are actually present, I’m not sure it’s a real way to be social.

I like Brooklyn’s answer (above).
For example, the Lord of the Rings is a fantasy book, but it’s a work that conveys truth through mythical metaphor, so we can see it as a kind of learning.

Thank you.

If you fail to see how video games can be social I am going to assume you have very little experience of social gaming. It is very social. I play video games with my boyfriend online (we both own an Xbox) when he lives about 30mins drive away. We can call and speak to each other while playing different games for free, or the same one together - competatively.

Not only that, but it will take me about 30 seconds to turn on my Xbox, load my game, enter a multiplayer game and then I’m able to chat live with people from all over the world - I’ve met people from USA, France, Russia… as well as (as I’ve mentioned) playing games with my friends who own an Xbox/the same PC game as me.

Also it can be physical. Never heard of the Wii? Dancemat games? Kinect? Nintendo (who own the Wii) have widely publised the fact that those with disabilities can exercise gently within their own home using the Wii.

Also, if online social gaming with strangers is not a real way to be social - would you say that about telephones? This forum?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Prayer puts you in touch with the only true reality - God. Everything in this world - you, me and video games - are all passing away. We are all transitory. God is eternity. Everything in this world, all of the materialism, is the disconnected reality. Your comments make me think you have never engaged in true prayer, It is not a drug, it is not an illusion. It is not just about being “happy.” Mother Teresa was in the dark night of the soul for 50 years. She derived no happiness whatsoever from prayer that entire time. But she never stopped praying. I try to spend as much time as possible in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Often I struggle to keep my thoughts connected. It is often hard work for me. But far from taking my minds off the problems I face, it helps me face them with strength and understanding.

Again, you avoid the fact that I’m only speaking from an empirical/materialist understanding of “reality”. Furthermore, your remark against the material side of reality borders on the anti-philosophical. Both the spiritual side and material side of life are equally essential especially since the former can only be manifested through the latter. You cite Mother Teresa as an example yet while she prayed a lot, she chose not to coop herself up. She went out and gave material comforts to the sick, the poor, and the dying. The air you breathe? That’s material. The water you drink? Again material. The money you need to earn? Material.

What you describe are actually two kinds of religious contemplation. Like it or not, there are moments where people do feel ecstasy and yes, in that type of prayer, it is escapism. Even when you throw in the whole “dark night of the soul” scenario, the desire to detach oneself from the physical realm that many people have dubbed “reality” can still be there.

On the other hand, when you engage in a sort of reflection, when you think about your life, ponder on the meaning of your existence, or other activities that demand critical thinking, that is no longer escapism. You are confronting things that need confronting. However, such things take, as I said, a lot of strain and effort.

Your comments have no basis in reality whatsoever. With all due respect, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Comparing prayer and video games seems almost satanic to me, the devil’s way of trying to take people away from God.

Since when did I compare the two? All I said was that they can both be tools for escapism. Many things can be used for escapism, be they good, neutral, or bad. It can be a hike in the woods. It can be a game of chess. It can even be pornography. Different as they are on the morality scale, they are still focused only one goal: to escape. They carry a desire to take one’s minds of one’s problems.

Finally, to say my comments have no basis in reality whatsoever is a lot when I’ve seen many people like yourself who always say things like, “Pray the Rosary and there will be peace.”, “Offer your up problems to God. Worry no more.” etc. If that’s not escapism, then I don’t know what I’ve been doing every time I log-in to my favorite MMO to take my mind off things.

Escapism isn’t all that bad you know. Everyone needs a break at times. Video games can you give that and so can prayer. Then again, in that case, I have more preference for the former than the latter in terms of the entertainment department. I sort of have an apathetic attitude towards religious ecstasy and hence I prefer a more intellectual approach to prayer.

 

[Brooklyn]

Again, you avoid the fact that I’m only speaking from an empirical/materialist understanding of “reality”. Furthermore, your remark against the material side of reality borders on the anti-philosophical. Both the spiritual side and material side of life are equally essential especially since the former can only be manifested through the latter. You cite Mother Teresa as an example yet while she prayed a lot, she chose not to coop herself up. She went out and gave material comforts to the sick, the poor, and the dying. The air you breathe? That’s material. The water you drink? Again material. The money you need to earn? Material.

What you describe are actually two kinds of religious contemplation. Like it or not, there are moments where people do feel ecstasy and yes, in that type of prayer, it is escapism. Even when you throw in the whole “dark night of the soul” scenario, the desire to detach oneself from the physical realm that many people have dubbed “reality” can still be there.

On the other hand, when you engage in a sort of reflection, when you think about your life, ponder on the meaning of your existence, or other activities that demand critical thinking, that is no longer escapism. You are confronting things that need confronting. However, such things take, as I said, a lot of strain and effort.

Since when did I compare the two? All I said was that they can both be tools for escapism. Many things can be used for escapism, be they good, neutral, or bad. It can be a hike in the woods. It can be a game of chess. It can even be pornography. Different as they are on the morality scale, they are still focused only one goal: to escape. They carry a desire to take one’s minds of one’s problems.

Finally, to say my comments have no basis in reality whatsoever is a lot when I’ve seen many people like yourself who always say things like, “Pray the Rosary and there will be peace.”, “Offer your up problems to God. Worry no more.” etc. If that’s not escapism, then I don’t know what I’ve been doing every time I log-in to my favorite MMO to take my mind off things.

Escapism isn’t all that bad you know. Everyone needs a break at times. Video games can you give that and so can prayer. Then again, in that case, I have more preference for the former than the latter in terms of the entertainment department. I sort of have an apathetic attitude towards religious ecstasy and hence I prefer a more intellectual approach to prayer.

Anyone who makes a statement such as: “Video games can you give that and so can prayer” cannot possibly have ever engaged in real prayer. I can’t say it strongly enough: PRAYER IS NOT ESCAPISM. Do you think Christ spent 40 days in prayer in the desert so he could escape? Do you think he prayed in the garden and sweated blood before his passion as a form of escapism?

Then you make this statement: “I sort of have an apathetic attitude towards religious ecstasy and hence I prefer a more intellectual approach to prayer.” What can I possibly say to such a statement? No one who has ever experienced deep prayer could ever possibly make such a statement.

I do hope that one day you will experience real prayer. Prayer will bring you in touch with the ultimate reality - with eternity and with the great Creator God. That is not escapism. That is all that really matters. You won’t need or want your video games to “escape” after that.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Anyone who makes a statement such as: “Video games can you give that and so can prayer” cannot possibly have ever engaged in real prayer. I can’t say it strongly enough: PRAYER IS NOT ESCAPISM. Do you think Christ spent 40 days in prayer in the desert so he could escape? Do you think he prayed in the garden and sweated blood before his passion as a form of escapism?

This may shock you but my answer would be, yes and yes. Tell me, why did He have to do those things all the way out in the desert? Why did He desire to be alone? Answer: He wanted his mind out of the world. Isn’t that what prayer is all about? To get your mind out of the world? Unfortunately for you, the world is what modern man has now defined to be the only “reality” there is. Hence, anything that gets your mind “out there” and not “down here” is escapism. Prayer fits that description. Video games do too. Hence, they are the same in that regard. You don’t like it? Does it hurt your feelings? It doesn’t matter. It’s a fact. Facts don’t care about feelings and it ain’t my problem. I’m not the Master of All Semantics.

Then you make this statement: “I sort of have an apathetic attitude towards religious ecstasy and hence I prefer a more intellectual approach to prayer.” What can I possibly say to such a statement? No one who has ever experienced deep prayer could ever possibly make such a statement.

If the things you’ve said up until now are what real prayer is all about, then I don’t need it. I don’t need blind moments of “holy high” to think about what to do with my life or whether I’m doing something right. After all, ecstasies can just easily be ruled out as psychological delusions. I’m not about to base my principles on something as unstable as that.

I do hope that one day you will experience real prayer. Prayer will bring you in touch with the ultimate reality - with eternity and with the great Creator God. That is not escapism. That is all that really matters. You won’t need or want your video games to “escape” after that.

Ahhh yes. The whole “religion can replace everything in your life” mentality. As if my experience in a fundie school wasn’t enough to show how much disaster it brings to religion.

What you’re saying about being “in touch” with eternity and God is nothing more than religious bliss. Oh yes, sweet spiritual bliss. Too bad ever since I was a kid, I could hardly, if ever feel that. You put me in an Adoration chapel, I’ll feel nothing. You make me pray the rosary (especially during solemn occasions), still nothing.

All I’ve ever had in those moments was nothing but me and the buzzing voices of my thoughts.

Your concept of ‘prayer’ didn’t give me the peace I needed after I rammed my head studying for my exams. Neither did it give me the rush I longed for after grinding my brain for hours typing and researching for my thesis contribution (which I don’t even know if it’s much of a contribution to begin with).

 

[Brooklyn]

This may shock you but my answer would be, yes and yes. Tell me, why did He have to do those things all the way out in the desert? Why did He desire to be alone? Answer: He wanted his mind out of the world. Isn’t that what prayer is all about? To get your mind out of the world? Unfortunately for you, the world is what modern man has now defined to be the only “reality” there is. Hence, anything that gets your mind “out there” and not “down here” is escapism. Prayer fits that description. Video games do too. Hence, they are the same in that regard. You don’t like it? Does it hurt your feelings? It doesn’t matter. It’s a fact. Facts don’t care about feelings and it ain’t my problem. I’m not the Master of All Semantics.

If the things you’ve said up until now are what real prayer is all about, then I don’t need it. I don’t need blind moments of “holy high” to think about what to do with my life or whether I’m doing something right. After all, ecstasies can just easily be ruled out as psychological delusions. I’m not about to base my principles on something as unstable as that.

Ahhh yes. The whole “religion can replace everything in your life” mentality. As if my experience in a fundie school wasn’t enough to show how much disaster it brings to religion.

What you’re saying about being “in touch” with eternity and God is nothing more than religious bliss. Oh yes, sweet spiritual bliss. Too bad ever since I was a kid, I could hardly, if ever feel that. You put me in an Adoration chapel, I’ll feel nothing. You make me pray the rosary (especially during solemn occasions), still nothing.

All I’ve ever had in those moments was nothing but me and the buzzing voices of my thoughts.

Your concept of ‘prayer’ didn’t give me the peace I needed after I rammed my head studying for my exams. Neither did it give me the rush I longed for after grinding my brain for hours typing and researching for my thesis contribution (which I don’t even know if it’s much of a contribution to begin with).

As I wrote, you have obviously never experienced real intimate prayer with your Creator. It’s like trying to describe what ice cream tastes like to someone who has never had it. You are not “hurting my feelings” in the least. The reason you need your video games is to fill the void in your life caused by your lack of relationship with God. You are the only one you are hurting.

I am done with this discussion. It doesn’t do any good to debate with somone who doesn’t know what he is talking about. I do hope and pray that you will someday experience intimate union with God through prayer. That is what you were created for, and I hope you will allow him to give it to you.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

As I wrote, you have obviously never experienced real intimate prayer with your Creator. It’s like trying to describe what ice cream tastes like to someone who has never had it. You are not “hurting my feelings” in the least. The reason you need your video games is to fill the void in your life caused by your lack of relationship with God. You are the only one you are hurting.

Exactly where do you think you are saintly enough to judge other people’s relationships with God simply on the grounds that they don’t experience warm fuzzies and religious euphoria?

Rather arrogant, I must say. Thanks for proving that the spiritual crowd becomes more and more separated from rational/philosophical thinking every day.

 

[alongexpected]

A comment from a thread in another forum (and the new TRON movie coming out) made me wonder: what is the moral value of video games?

The video game has been around now for over 30 years, from basic digitized text, 2D shapes, to colour 3D and is developing toward a fully immersive virtual reality. The basic concept involves the player interacting with a digital fantasy world for his own amusement. This is in reference to most games which are made for recreational (non-educational) entertainment.

What is the value in video games, if any? Isn’t it always inherently an escape from true reality? Doesn’t that make it always a waste of our God-given time in the real world?

This question was a waste of our God-given time in the real world.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m not sure why this thread has gotten into a debate as to whether or not prayer is considered “escapism”, but I’ll try to respond to the OP. (Lost Wanderer and Brooklyn, I love you both. :hug3

I would definitely place video games alongside all the other forms of art & media: books, music, art (paintings, sculptures, etc.), movies, TV, etc.

In all these forms of art, there are many, many different types of varying degrees of quality that have been created for many different reasons. Think of it terms of books. Some books are considered great works of literature that were written to be a serious (or sometimes not-so-serious) commentary on the world around us in the hopes of moving the world just a little bit. Other books are considered pulp fiction and are written primarily for people to read while relaxing in an effort to unwind and pass the time.

I believe there is room for both types (and, indeed, more types than this because I dislike creating false dichotomies ). Of course, if we spend all of our time reading pulp fiction – or even great literature – such that we fail to meet our normal obligations, we have turned them into idols and it is a problem for us. But that does not make them inherently bad.

The same is true for video games. Some of the “shovel-ware” is hurriedly coded together to make a quick buck. But hey, if people enjoy playing it during their designated free time, then there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. Then there are other games where it is obvious the developers put a great deal of time and thought into creating something that really could be considered an interactive work of art.

For example, I think “The Legend of Zelda” games are brilliant. First, they do an excellent job of creating an aesthetically appealing visual treat. Second, they take great care towards creating a comprehensive plot with an emotional impact. I’m not ashamed to admit that there have been times where I’ve gotten choked up playing the game – the same way I would reading a good book or watching a good movie. I get so invested in the characters that, when I finally beat the game, I thoroughly enjoy the cut-scenes during the closing credits as it offers a glimpse of the characters’ “happily ever after”. It’s just as rewarding of an emotional pay-off as it is reading a good book.

 

[stevealbert99]

the value of video games is to have fun and shoot stuff

 

[Brooklyn]

Exactly where do you think you are saintly enough to judge other people’s relationships with God simply on the grounds that they don’t experience warm fuzzies and religious euphoria?

Rather arrogant, I must say. Thanks for proving that the spiritual crowd becomes more and more separated from rational/philosophical thinking every day.

I can only go by what you wrote, and your words indicate that you do not have any understanding of what prayer is really about. Your post here only further validates my point. An intimate relationship with God is about a lot more than “warm fuzzies and religious euphoria.” Again, I do hope and pray that you will come to understand that for your own sake.

As far as your second statement is concerned, I fear that the reason for the “separation” is that the “rational thinking crowd” is becoming more and more separated from God.

 

[Gift_from_God]

What is the value in video games, if any? Isn’t it always inherently an escape from true reality? Doesn’t that make it always a waste of our God-given time in the real world?

I’d say the exact same for movies; they’re fun escapes from reality. We live regular lives, remember.

It’s not a waste of our time at all. Remember, video games tell stories and last time I checked, Jesus told stories

 

[vz71]

If it is really the case that the whole of our lives prepares us for our response at final judgement; then what response are the games helping us to give?

As to the idea of prayer as a form of escapism, it begs the question…from what?

 

[LemonAndLime]

If it is really the case that the whole of our lives prepares us for our response at final judgement; then what response are the games helping us to give?

Does everything in your life prepare you for the final judgement? Do you spend your entire day doing things that prepare you for the final judgement?

 

[vz71]

Does everything in your life prepare you for the final judgement? Do you spend your entire day doing things that prepare you for the final judgement?

Whether you realize it or not…yes.

 

[Joe_5859]

Does everything in your life prepare you for the final judgement? Do you spend your entire day doing things that prepare you for the final judgement?

Perhaps a few contemplative hermits could answer those questions affirmatively…

I think that, insofar as vz71 is making the point that we need to pray without ceasing and always be mindful of our Lord, that is valid. But I see no reason for a knee-jerk rejection of video games wholesale. Should we reject any form of recreation as a “waste of time”? Certainly not. God Himself recreated on the 7th day.

I can play video games with my daughter and bond with her over them. She can play her cousins in Mario Kart Wii from 500 miles away. I think that’s pretty useful.

 

[vz71]

Perhaps a few contemplative hermits could answer those questions affirmatively…

I think that, insofar as vz71 is making the point that we need to pray without ceasing and always be mindful of our Lord, that is valid. But I see no reason for a knee-jerk rejection of video games wholesale. Should we reject any form of recreation as a “waste of time”? Certainly not. God Himself recreated on the 7th day.

I can play video games with my daughter and bond with her over them. She can play her cousins in Mario Kart Wii from 500 miles away. I think that’s pretty useful.

Close, but not exactly the point I had in mind.

I recognize that we cannot always be in prayer.
But we should recognize that every act of ours is in itself an answer to God one way or the other.

I would disagree with any type of knee-jerk reaction. We should carefully consider these games or for that matter every decision in light of our own final judgement.

And I would not be so strict as to attempt to make a prayer out of it all.
My questions would be more of…
Is this going to harm my relationship with God?
Is this going to help it?
Of what use is it if Not?

I should include as an addendum to this that simple recreation and relaxation does help our relationship with God. Not directly, but it does.

 

[Joe_5859]

Close, but not exactly the point I had in mind.

I recognize that we cannot always be in prayer.
But we should recognize that every act of ours is in itself an answer to God one way or the other.

I would disagree with any type of knee-jerk reaction. We should carefully consider these games or for that matter every decision in light of our own final judgement.

And I would not be so strict as to attempt to make a prayer out of it all.
My questions would be more of…
Is this going to harm my relationship with God?
Is this going to help it?
Of what use is it if Not?

I should include as an addendum to this that simple recreation and relaxation does help our relationship with God. Not directly, but it does.

Ah, I see. Well, I can agree with that. I mistook you for someone who was arguing that all video games were an evil waste of time.

 

[Brooklyn]

Does everything in your life prepare you for the final judgement? Do you spend your entire day doing things that prepare you for the final judgement?

With everything you do in this life, you will be serving 1 of 2 masters - either Satan or God, and everything you do in this life will be preparing you for your eternal destination - either heaven or hell. If everything you do in this life does not in some way glorify God, then you are glorifying Satan. We all need relaxation once in a while, but let’s face it, spending hours playing violent or sexual video games does not constitute relaxation. And it is certainly not going to bring you closer to God, and if you’re not deepening your relationship with God, the only other alternative is that you’re deepening your relationship with Satan.