Viet Nam.. What is your opinion?

[grandfather]

i which reminds me, most of us probably don’t think much about the war that is going on here in the US… against the unborn… We don’t much act like that is a war anymore… been legal too long…

and the fact that this crime is sanctioned by any government makes that government illegitmate before God. It can be called freedom, but it is murder, genocide, a holocuast.

 

[Postmodern]

This annecdote also appears in Bob Greene’s book “Homecoming”, but I’ve never been able to find a police report, etc. to back it up.

Sociologist Jerry Lembcke’s book “The Spitting Image” also tries to verify the event, but came up empty.

Unlike Lembcke, who seems to assert that no altercations every occured, I believe that some alteracations occured. Unlike Iraq, which is small, grossly overstretched, footprint, there are millions of Vietnam vets like ourselves. When you take millions of people, you are going to have instances of violence.

But I would have to agree with Lembcke’s assertion that the supposed scale is all urban myth. If violence were occuring on even a modest scale, politicians would have been publicly milking it and we would have public documents. I don’t know about you, but if someone had spit on me there would be a hospital or arrest record (poor Catholicism, I know, but I have to be honest about what my response would have been).

There are actually several records of law suits regarding the Pentagon’s decisions involving transport and clothing. It seems that avoiding commercial airports and encouraging civilian clothing had more to do with avoiding the media than protesters. Much as we are so secretive about returning metal caskets and seriously wounded personel today.

If it isn’t clear, I am not trying to question either your sincerity or your service. I enlisted in the Corp myself, though completed my service through two deployments as a combat medic. Most of time in country was with the Walking Dead, whose deployment I believe still holds the USMC record for KIA ratio among bats. So I hope my comments above won’t be taken as a personal offense.

Peace

Vietnam War
The battalion endured the longest sustained combat and suffered the highest killed in action (KIA)" rate in Marine Corps history, especially during the Battle of July Two. The battalion was engaged in combat for 47 months and 7 days, from June 15, 1965 to October 19, 1966 and December 11, 1966 to July 14, 1969. 1/9 sustained casualties during its entire Vietnam service. Based on a typical battalion strength of 800 Marines and Navy hospital corpmen, 93.63% (747) were Killed In Action (KIA) and 0.25% (2) were Missing In Action (MIA).

1/9 participated in the following operation during the Vietnam War:

Blastout I Aug 65
Golden Fleece Sep-Oct 65
County Fair Sep-Dec 65
Rice Straw Oct-Nov 65
Independence Feb 66
Ky Lam Campaign May 66
Liberty Jul 66
Macon Jul-Oct 66
Deckhouse V January 1967
Prairie II Feb-Mar 67
Chinook II Feb-Apr 67
Beacon Hill Mar-Apr 67
Prairie III Mar-Apr 67
Prairie IV Apr-May 67
Cimarron Jun-Jul 67
Buffalo July 1967
Fremont Jul-Oct 67 (became Neosha)
Kentucky Nov 67-Feb 69
Neosho Nov 67-Jan 68
Scotland November 1967 - March 68
Checkers Dec 67-Jan 68
Ballistic Armor Jan 68
Dai Do Apr-May 68
Pegasus/LamSon 207 Apr 68 26th Mar
July Action Jul 68
Dawson River Nov 68-Jan 69
Dawson River South Jan 69
Dawson River West Jan 69
Dewey Canyon January - March 1969
Apache Snow May-Jun 69
Utah Mesa Jun-Jul
Cameron Falls JunAug 69
Direct Combat Support 19-21May71
Heroic Action 11-May-72
Song Thanh 5-72 13-May-72
Song Thanh 6-72 24-May-72
ReadyOp 27-Jun-72
LamSon 72(I) 29-Jun-72
LamSon 72 (II) 11-Jul-72
Frequent Wind 20-30 April 1975

 

[SCALCO]

Then again the USA gives $3billion a year to the Israeli military and they have a history of starting wars. You can hardly blame other middle eastern countries wanting weapons with the amount Israel have

Other middle eastern countries would try to destroy Israel if they did not have a strong defense.

 

[SCALCO]

What a bunch of hypocrites, those anti-war demonstrators… They supposedly hated violence, yet were violent against their own people…

Why do you say the N. Vietnamese werr ready to collapse?? I didn’t know that…

I am not a historian or expert on Vietnam, but I know Vietnamese who said the same thing that the North was near collapse. My mother-in-law was there during the bombing and said if we had continued bombing a little longer they would have. I don’t know how true this is, but this woman escaped the communists in the 1950’s and saw the entire war firsthand. Her firstborn son of 10 children was killed by the communists. Her brother was a general who was (name removed by moderator)risoned for 10 years by the North Vietnamese. The stories I have heard about their escape are amazing.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The USSR fell as a result of the strengthening of the U.S. military by Ronald Reagan. We outspent them and they collapsed trying to keep up. The misery in the Soviet Empire created by the atheist regime was horrendous. Stalin murdered 20 million of his own people and almost as many Ukranians. He starved millions to death by taking the countries’ food and selling it to buy industrial equipment in their industrialization. Would it have been better if the countries of the USSR were liberated after the war by force? Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Czechoslavakia, and all the other countries who hated their slave masters in Moscow and their dictators at home suffered for another four decades would have thought so. I clearly remember the Hungarian revolt being brutally crushed. I remember the Berlin Wall going up and seeing the news when people trying to flee were machine gunned by their own soldiers. I also remember Reagan’s calling them the evil empire and challenging them to “tear down that wall”, and the jubilation when the wall fell. Eastern Europe will take many more generations to recover from this nightmare of an atheist tyranny.

I recall Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn saying, in his “Gulag Archipelago” series that when he was in the camps the prisoners were happy about the Korean War, despite all the official propaganda about it. They hoped Truman would end up declaring war on the Soviet Union, and looked hopefully to the time when, just maybe, Truman would bomb the death camps they, themselves, lived in. Perhaps they would die under the bombs, but perhaps some of them would escape through the shattered wire. Communism is not better than war. Communism IS war.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Christianity is not a pacifist religion. The just war theory is an attempt by St. Thomas to determine when figting war is justified, to define conditions that make fighting a war morally justifiable. It is not Catholic dogma, something of the faith to be believed and held with religious faith. It is his theory.

False. From the Catechism:

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

• there must be serious prospects of success;

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Lower impact than what? At a point, this would automatically preclude opposing any regime or force that was particularly brutal with civilians, or that chose to hide among civilians. Where is the line drawn for you?

Let’s not split hairs, here. The point of this particular aspect of the doctrine is not to draw an arbitrary line; it’s to demonstrate that one side must determine (as far as is reasonably possible) whether military action will cause evil greater than the circumstance it would seek to change. In other words, if a military action would kill more civilians than a given dictator’s regime might do, that has to be given serious weight in the deliberations.

Peace,
Dante

 

[Ridgerunner]

SoCalRC,
when George Bush made his state of the union address before Congress, and he was trying to sell their support for going into Iraq, as I watched the only thing I could see was an arrogant clueless man, who had no idea or concern, what war actually was.

Other than WWII, I can’t think of any others that were justified.

Jim

One often sees what he is predisposed to see. I take it you are not aware that your candidate is going to continue the war in Iraq until the generals feel it’s won. You will then see your president as a hero of historic proportions.

You don’t think the Union was justified in the Civil War? It should have just let secession and the continuation of slavery go? Well, maybe you do think that.

 

[SoCalRC]

Vietnam War
The battalion endured the longest sustained combat and suffered the highest killed in action (KIA)" rate in Marine Corps history, especially during the Battle of July Two.

If I was not clear, the Walking Dead is the 1st Battalion, 9th Marines. I’m sorry, I cannot really talk about 7/2/67. Not with my wife, not with my children, certainly not here. In the record books it is just another short engagement, but not to me.

While I would not wish a day like that on another human being, I am pretty certain that there would be a lot less chest thumbing and home front bravado if such experiences were more widely shared. It is easy to talk about war and ideology when it is someone else bleeding and dying, but I never remember subjects like ‘fighting communism’ or ‘promoting America’s strategic interests in the region’ coming up when I shoveled someone’s intenstines back inside their abdomen, or rolled what was left of someone’s closest friend up inside a poncho.

 

[SoCalRC]

One often sees what he is predisposed to see. I take it you are not aware that your candidate is going to continue the war in Iraq until the generals feel it’s won. You will then see your president as a hero of historic proportions.

You don’t think the Union was justified in the Civil War? It should have just let secession and the continuation of slavery go? Well, maybe you do think that.

So how many conflicts in your lifetime do you assert where justified? That is, how many did you believe in deeply enough to put your own life on the line?

 

[DanteAlighieri]

So how many conflicts in your lifetime do you assert where justified? That is, how many did you believe in deeply enough to put your own life on the line?

From a Catholic perspective, that is an inadequate standard by which to determine if a war is justified. The Catechism is very clear about the standard:

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

• there must be serious prospects of success;

• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

Peace,
Dante

 

[JimR-OCDS]

One often sees what he is predisposed to see. I take it you are not aware that your candidate is going to continue the war in Iraq until the generals feel it’s won. You will then see your president as a hero of historic proportions.

You don’t think the Union was justified in the Civil War? It should have just let secession and the continuation of slavery go? Well, maybe you do think that.

We’re not allowed to talk about political candidates, so I won’t respond to that part of your post.

The civil war justified? Perhaps not. 600,000 men lost their lives, and despite being free, slavery continued under forced labor laws invoked by the southern states, and continued into the 1930’s.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I believe their was an alternative to ending slavery, other than war. Europe had ended slavery long before without going to war over it.

Jim

 

[thomfra]

We’re not allowed to talk about political candidates, so I won’t respond to that part of your post.

The civil war justified? Perhaps not. 600,000 men lost their lives, and despite being free, slavery continued under forced labor laws invoked by the southern states, and continued into the 1930’s.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I believe their was an alternative to ending slavery, other than war. Europe had ended slavery long before without going to war over it.

Jim

I think pretty much everybody knows that the civil war had little or nothing to do with slavery.

 

[SCALCO]

I think pretty much everybody knows that the civil war had little or nothing to do with slavery.

This is off-topic, but can you elaborate? You think it was more to do with state’s rights?

 

[thomfra]

This is off-topic, but can you elaborate? You think it was more to do with state’s rights?

Eh…I’d just be paraphrasing badly. Just google it. It’s all there.

 

[SCALCO]

Eh…I’d just be paraphrasing badly. Just google it. It’s all there.

If I google it I will probably see thousands of theories. I was simply asking for yours in a nutshell, but it’s really off-topic anyway and not tremendously important.

 

[grandfather]

Let’s not split hairs, here. The point of this particular aspect of the doctrine is not to draw an arbitrary line; it’s to demonstrate that one side must determine (as far as is reasonably possible) whether military action will cause evil greater than the circumstance it would seek to change.

That would always be an impossible thing to determine. You would not only have to be able to reasonably predict the number of dead a dictator would kill and the number of lives the war would take, which is always imposible, but have to see all of the after effects.

We know how many people within a million here or so Hitler killed in the few years he had power. How many would his regime have killed? He said his murderous regime would last a thousand years.

WWI not only caused WWII, but the peace terms made after the senseless war was over caused WWII. Not going to war with Hitler early enough without a doubt multiplied the number of dead and the scope of the war. It also caused the suffering of millions in all of eastern Europe that was seized by Stalin’s tyranny. Was Lloyd George immoral in appeasing Hitler? Was it unreasonable to avoid the confrontation as he did? History paints him a fool. His intentions, peace in our time, may have been honorable, but the outcome was a sea of blood.

If Europe stopped Hitler early what would history say of it? It was not justifiable to go to war, just because we thought Hitler might have had bad intentions. Monday morning quarterbacks are always geniuses. Many ofl the Jews in Germany may have been murdered, but an early war would have left those in Poland, France, Italy, etc. alive. No one would have seen the death that would have been stopped by an early war and there would have been a debate on whether it was just.

There truly is a domino theory or principle, but we can not see it. None of us can foresee the consequences of our actions. If Wilson knew what his peace plan would result in he would have not imposed it.

We don’t know what Sadaam would have done if he was unchecked. We know he invaded Kuwait and most certainly would have invaded all the rest of Arabia. Stalin was his idol. How many millions would he and his sons have killed? Whether one approves of the current state of affairs or not, knowing and being able to measure the outcome, or the outcomes of alternatives is impossible.

All of our actions impact the future until the end of time. There are 40,000,000 dead unborn babies in America as a result of the immoral action of a handful of judges. If another country wanted to stop that by force and had a way to do it that would kill only an estimated 4,000,000 would that make a war or a violent revolution to change America’s government just?

What was the evil that made the American Revolutionary War necessary and impossible to avoid? Taxation without representation? To force the King’s government to not look at Americans as second class citizens? To lower the price of tea? Were the Americans so terribly crushed that they had no choice other than war? What gave legitimacy to, or made just, England’s claims over its colonies and its rule imposed by force over the largest empire in history?

 

[Ronald_E]

I haven’t read all of the threads and, I may be off topic, but I have the freedom to speak my ‘peace’.
When I think of the wars of the last century, I think that if we have a united Christianity we would not have WWI and WW II. We had in both cases Christains killing Christians. How can this happen? In Vietnam we had the French occupying their country before we went. I do not know the history of that occupation but it appears they were trespassing against others for selfish purposes.
What would happen if Christians united in prayer at the same time and for a set period of time like 40 days and sacrificed their comfort and livelihood for prayer?
Do I or we have that kind of faith?

 

[SCALCO]

Did a quick search on religion in Vietnam. According to the information available there are three main religions, Buddhism, Catholicism and Cao Dai. Buddhism has the most adherents. The majority of Vietnamese consider themselves Buddhist. Catholicism is the next largest group. Cao Dai is third largest. It is a syncretist religion with Confuscianism being one of the components. Taoiosm and ancestor worship are the others. Catholicism was introduced in the 15th century and was long established and was popular before the French arrival, although the French encouraged it. I could not find any information that said Confucianism has a presence or is practiced other than in syncretist forms.

Do you have a source for Catholicism being introduced in Vietnam in the 15th century?
You might have meant the 16th century? I just started reading on the subject and you are correct that it was well established before the French arrived.

 

[Postmodern]

If I was not clear, the Walking Dead is the 1st Battalion, 9th Marines. I’m sorry, I cannot really talk about 7/2/67. Not with my wife, not with my children, certainly not here. In the record books it is just another short engagement, but not to me.

While I would not wish a day like that on another human being, I am pretty certain that there would be a lot less chest thumbing and home front bravado if such experiences were more widely shared. It is easy to talk about war and ideology when it is someone else bleeding and dying, but I never remember subjects like ‘fighting communism’ or ‘promoting America’s strategic interests in the region’ coming up when I shoveled someone’s intenstines back inside their abdomen, or rolled what was left of someone’s closest friend up inside a poncho.

That was about the 1/9. Or so I thought.

I’m sorry to have brought up bad memories. That wasn’t my intention. I simply was trying to show that you were correct, the 1/9 still has the highest casualty rate in Corps history.