Viet Nam.. What is your opinion?

[Scott_D]

i admit i don’t know as much about the Vietnamese war as i would like… but in light of what i have heard/read… it occurs to me that we could have won that war and that we should have kept trying…

I feel that the war was stopped because of pressure by war demonstrators, who, frankly, probably didn’t know much about the whole issue: the evils of Communism, how awful it is to live under that kind of rule… etc,

I hate war as much as anyone… but i feel that if an evil dictator is trying to take over a country and force its evil designs on them… (Communists don’t seem to have much respect for human life, much less human freedom…) and also when this form of government is spreading… and could become a greater threat to US… then something should be done…

Again, i admit i don’t know as much as others do on this subject… which is why i am asking… I would particularly like to hear from those who have BEEn there…

I used to struggle with that question too. I always wondered, should we have been there or not. Of course, communism is a scourge. However, I put this same question to a buddy of mine who was an infantryman in Vietnam. He said, “You don’t go to another man’s living room and tell him what to do!”

There is also the question of the Gulf of Tonkin incident which was used as a pretext to go to war. This incident has now been proven to have been fabricated by the U.S. government. Big surprise!

 

[RobHom]

I think he meant American fatalities, but even that number was closer to 60,000 than 50,000.

The last count I saw was that there were 58,246 names on “The Wall”.

 

[RobHom]

Having spent two years shoving insides back into body cavities and rolling up bloody ponchos myself, I can say that no one disputes that the operational constraints were ludicrous. However, the problem is that no one stops to think out what could have possibly changed.

Remember, it wasn’t just the VC and us. We were ‘aiding’ a ‘legitimate’ government. Rules about religion weren’t about kissing VC butt, but about avoiding adding straws to the collapse of the government that was our cover for being there. Likewise, rules about direct engagement with China or the Soviets were to keep the illusion that we were helping a friendly nation in a regional conflict, not covertly starting WW-III.

From a battle ground perspective, frustration makes sense. We won battles, and clearly had superior military might. In the 1/9 the KIA ratio was horrific, well over 90%, so no one could saw we weren’t fighting tooth and nail.

But while you can win battles militarily, and more freedom to use military might could mean more battle victories, you do not win wars by military action alone. War always requires a political and diplomatic solution as well. Military might can only, at best, create the opportunity for such solutions.

Consider Vietnam. Would escallating the fight from the VC to China, a nuclear power with the largest standing army on earth have ‘ended’ the war in an assured US victory? Similarly, how would have expediting the collapse of the government in the south created a path to victory? Driving an even stronger popular uprising would have just made even more people shoot at our backs - and it was hard enough to distinguish friend from foe as it was.

Resenting a meat grinder, a unwinnable situation, is understandable. But it is very dangerous to assume that the situation was unwinnable because of wholly arbitrary decisions. The constraints were there because of the realities of the geo political situation. Pretending otherwise just means we will repeat the same mistakes.

Look at Iraq, we have abandoned the Geneva conventions. There are literally no constraints on the treatment of prisoners or the population. Similiarly, we have an adminstration that would welcome regional escallation and even actively pursues it. And looking back, the war has run years long and cost hundred of billions more than anyone ever dreamed, and no meaningful political settlement seems on the horizon.

But, even in trying to ‘take the gloves off’ (as non fighting re-writers of Vietnam history like Bush and Cheney have), we have created a new set of silly operational constraints. We hear promises of following OBL to the gates of hell, but we can’t touch him in the caves of Pakistan. Similarly, we fight the Taliban - we’re actually losing the country to them in Afghanstan now, but we also largely help fund them, because we can’t risk losing access to Saudi oil…

The problem isn’t operational constraints, you’ll always have them. The problem is stupid ones, combined with strategically impossible goals. This lesson gets missed when people blame the symptom instead of looking at the underlying disease.

I agree.

 

[Al_Masetti]

The last count I saw was that there were 58,246 names on “The Wall”.

I had read that originally the names of some of our dead had been excluded.

Anyway, I started a Google search and picked this up right off. No idea if it is a complete list of the original omissions. Need to do more research.

news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2007/May/070524-03.html

"The Memorial Wall originally listed Soldiers killed in action during combat in Vietnam, and was updated in the 1980s to include Soldiers who were missing in action or declared dead. The wall was later expanded to include all Army Special Operations Soldiers killed in action from 1983 to the present.

“The Memorial Wall now displays the names of 1,007 fallen special operations Soldiers.”

There may be others not yet listed, as well.

vvmf.org/index.cfm?SectionID=108

“Since 1982, when the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated with 57,939 names, 310 names have been added, bringing the total to 58,253 as of this writing (May 2006)”

59,260?

 

[SoCalRC]

Got timed out again.

Sorry, but this really brought back some $%^* memories.

Painful memories are relative. One of my worst memories from Vietnam was the first time someone was shot and killed while I tried to treat him.

Ever been on a bicycle and swallowed a bug? Stopped, coughed, spat and thought to yourself how gross it was? Now blind yourself with blood (which is surprisingly warm BTW, when it hits your own soft tissue that way it can trigger a ‘burning’ reflex in your brain) and come to the realization that what you are coughing out of your mouth is human brain tissue, followed shortly after by your own vomit.

When my country called, I answered. That’s because I really do believe in defending things like the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. So please feel free to spout any thought, no matter how silly, as loudly and often as you like. But the shaking fist and mock moral outrage? That’s still a tough one for me to stomach. If there was real emotion or real passion, why wouldn’t a person answer when their country called?

Likewise, if there was even any real outrage at the idiotic situation we were placed in, why did folks like you keep politically supporting the people orchestrating the thing at the time?

 

[First_of_9]

I had read that originally the names of some of our dead had been excluded.

Anyway, I started a Google search and picked this up right off. No idea if it is a complete list of the original omissions. Need to do more research.

news.soc.mil/releases/News%20Archive/2007/May/070524-03.html

"The Memorial Wall originally listed Soldiers killed in action during combat in Vietnam, and was updated in the 1980s to include Soldiers who were missing in action or declared dead. The wall was later expanded to include all Army Special Operations Soldiers killed in action from 1983 to the present.

“The Memorial Wall now displays the names of 1,007 fallen special operations Soldiers.”

There may be others not yet listed, as well.

vvmf.org/index.cfm?SectionID=108

“Since 1982, when the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was dedicated with 57,939 names, 310 names have been added, bringing the total to 58,253 as of this writing (May 2006)”

59,260?

This is NOT the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, but a local memorial. Only Vietnam casualties are on “THE WALL”.

I didn’t understand Vietnam before, while, or after I was there. I didn’t understand it before, while, or after my younger brother was there.

Maybe someday. . . . .

 

[Al_Masetti]

I found this:

thewall-usa.com/information.asp

HOW MANY NAMES HAVE BEEN ADDED SINCE THE MEMORIAL WAS DEDICATED?

Nine groups of names have been added since the Memorial was dedicated. In group 1 (1983) there were 68 names added, group 2(1984) 15 names, group 3 (1986) 110 names, group 4 (2001) six names, group 5 (2002) three names, group 6 (2003) six names, group 7 (2004) ten names, group 8 (2005) four names, group 9 (2006) four names, group 10 (2007) three names.
The bulk of the names in the first group of 68 were Marines killed when their R&R flight crashed in Hong Kong. (This exception to the criteria was ordered by President Ronald Reagan.)

Those in the group of 110 were added when the geographic criteria were enlarged to include people killed (95 servicemen) outside the war zone while on or in support of direct combat missions and 15 servicemen who had subsequently died of wounds received in Vietnam.

The latest three names added in 2007, brought the number of names on the black granite Wall to 58,256.

ARE THERE ANY CIVILIANS LISTED ON THE WALL?

No, the Memorial is dedicated to the 2.7 million men and women in the U.S. military who served in the designated war zone.

HOW ARE THE NAMES ARRANGED ON THE WALL?

They are in chronological order, according to the date of casualty within each day, the names are alphabetized. For the dead, the date of casualty is the date they were wounded (received in combat) or injured (received in an accident); for the missing, the date they were reported to be missing. The list starts and ends at the vertex (apex), beginning at the date 1959 (with first two names listed from the date of July 8, 1959) and the inscription (IN HONOR OF THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES WHO SERVED IN THE VIETNAM WAR. THE NAMES OF THOSE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES AND OF THOSE WHO REMAIN MISSING ARE INSCRIBED IN THE ORDER THEY WERE TAKEN FROM US.) on panel 1E and going out to the end of the East wall, appearing to recede into the earth (numbered 70E - May 25, 1968), then resuming at the end of the West wall, as the wall emerges from the earth (numbered 70W - continuing May 25, 1968) and ending with the date of 1975 and its inscription (OUR NATION HONORS THE COURAGE, SACRIFICE AND DEVOTION TO DUTY AND COUNTRY OF ITS VIETNAM VETERANS. THIS MEMORIAL WAS BUILT WITH PRIVATE CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. NOVEMBER 11, 1982) at the bottom of 1W (last 18 names listed are from May 15, 1975). Thus the war’s beginning and end meet; the war’s complete, coming full circle, yet broken by the earth that bounds the angle’s open side and contained within the earth itself. Although 1959 is marked as the beginning on Panel 1, East wall, a Captain (Army) Harry G. Cramer was killed 21 October 1957 during a training action. He is listed on line 78, panel 1, East wall, which was added approximately a year after the Memorial was dedicated.

CRITERIA FOR NAMES ON THE WALL

Early in the effort to establish the Vietnam Veterans Memorial it was determined by the veterans that the memorial would contain the permanent inscription of the names of all who died or who remain missing in the war. The inscription of the names was the sole mandatory criterion set by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (VVMF) for designs entered in the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Design Competition. The list of names came from casualty lists compiled by the Department of Defense (DOD).

 

[SoCalRC]

The last count I saw was that there were 58,246 names on “The Wall”.

Remember, that excludes 2000 “missing” and a vague number of coverts. After coming home one of my very best friends went “MIA” in his Intruder. He is on the wall now, but was not originally.

In college, my oldest daughter asked to read the diary I’d kept. Later she visited the monument and made pencil tracings of all the names in it and left cards and flowers for each of them. Surprisingly, she actually got some letters and photos from family members in response. She combined all of it, tracings, letters, photos, excerpts from the diary, etc. into sort of a book.

I’m sure that everyone who visits the monument gets a sense of what it means, but just looking at the tracings, I’m still amazed at how powerful my own response is to just those chiseled names.

 

[SoCalRC]

This is NOT the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, but a local memorial. Only Vietnam casualties are on “THE WALL”.

I didn’t understand Vietnam before, while, or after I was there. I didn’t understand it before, while, or after my younger brother was there.

Maybe someday. . . . .

Have you visited the memorial? I resisted, but my wife insisted and I was glad she did. No answers, but even just acknowledgement helped.

Peace

 

[JimG]

Well, if anyone wishes to revisit the Vietnam War from a somewhat dispassionate perspective,
I still recommend Michael Lind’s Vietnam, The Necessary War.

Lind is not a doctrinaire conservative (He also wrote “Up from Conservatism–Why the Right is Wrong for America.”)

Still, he argues that the war in Vietnam was both necessary, and mishandled–by not being limited enough.

 

[histruth1]

JimR,
During that time North and South Vietnam were 2 seperate countires—much like North and South Korea still are.
Mike

 

[JoeBlow]

i admit i don’t know as much about the Vietnamese war as i would like… but in light of what i have heard/read… it occurs to me that we could have won that war and that we should have kept trying…

Not only could we have won the war, we were winning the war when we quit.

We were just beginning to take out their supply lines across the border with our heavy bombing campaigns and sending special forces into Laos to root them out.

 

[bullfrog543]

sorry we didnt come close to winning the war ill hide my truth here - 3:34 am May 6/08

love thy neibour as i would myself is in my bible and i preach it so if my nighbour is a satanist how
can i love him this has dribbled into my business so i wrote this.

why vampires cants see their reflection is bacause satanic worhipers were aload uptill today to be
neighbours of each individual christian world wide no where else now only meaning upon good
faith has different permission less striction by the wind that creates waves in water or ripples.

Because the cry of Satanists were so rediculious of a claim it asked for a deal to allow be recond
with.

The satanic principle was they could see there dna dread lock hair in mirrors and windows by
willpower alone. There vurtue and bargain to the angel of death among the realm of spirtuality
was they would all individually globally to one a tanning salon in jamaica and become black or
dark brown go to jamaica gods choice hair salone and get dread locks, become ‘personal friends’
are to become 150 miles long when soft or hard a lot longer. This was there bargain from the
beginning that the first window and mirror was ever looked into in existence upon planet earth.

Some years after the deal was made because of the dark ages where witches were burnt at the
stake and stuff another deal was made if the wind and the trinity could allow alot of satanists to
spirtually be neighbours of christians then they would make a deal that the angel of death also
known and or the grim reaper is excepted by planet earths life forms to be in charge of life.
Satanists would support death and give its purpose to the angel of death at a later date. Some
years later it was found Satanists needed rules to follow to be nearer to faith, forgiveness and
respect in their lively hoods because they wished revenge to exist basically so they must follow
bull frogs rules in the six seals.

This has caused a greed for not wanting blood by and for satansts causing to want to be heard in
the earth in cofussion and making a secret deal wh earth and the matrix the deal with the matrix
was all satanists are only aload to speak the negative words in the dictionary.

The matrix was to be involved in placing buildingsin the ground threw prair in the earth know
spirtuality sais its time to brin that which is down up above ground by supportingtime gods and
foreighn gods with their heart soul and devices.

The matrix has offered to support to all bibles (the word of God) and meaning upon goo faith
(friends and family) with the deals in people and creatures.

I dare the next witch to make a bargain deal or promise or next drug deal. planet earth forbids the
deal to be a battery for the matrix.

 

[First_of_9]

Have you visited the memorial? I resisted, but my wife insisted and I was glad she did. No answers, but even just acknowledgement helped.

Peace

My younger brother and I were at the dedication in 82 (I lived in Northern Virginia then and he came in from Missouri) and I have been back 7 or 8 times. Night time is a special experience, especially since my brother’s death in 1999.

 

[SCALCO]

sorry we didnt come close to winning the war ill hide my truth here - 3:34 am May 6/08

love thy neibour as i would myself is in my bible and i preach it so if my nighbour is a satanist how
can i love him this has dribbled into my business so i wrote this.

why vampires cants see their reflection is bacause satanic worhipers were aload uptill today to be
neighbours of each individual christian world wide no where else now only meaning upon good
faith has different permission less striction by the wind that creates waves in water or ripples.

Because the cry of Satanists were so rediculious of a claim it asked for a deal to allow be recond
with.

The satanic principle was they could see there dna dread lock hair in mirrors and windows by
willpower alone. There vurtue and bargain to the angel of death among the realm of spirtuality
was they would all individually globally to one a tanning salon in jamaica and become black or
dark brown go to jamaica gods choice hair salone and get dread locks, become ‘personal friends’
are to become 150 miles long when soft or hard a lot longer. This was there bargain from the
beginning that the first window and mirror was ever looked into in existence upon planet earth.

Some years after the deal was made because of the dark ages where witches were burnt at the
stake and stuff another deal was made if the wind and the trinity could allow alot of satanists to
spirtually be neighbours of christians then they would make a deal that the angel of death also
known and or the grim reaper is excepted by planet earths life forms to be in charge of life.
Satanists would support death and give its purpose to the angel of death at a later date. Some
years later it was found Satanists needed rules to follow to be nearer to faith, forgiveness and
respect in their lively hoods because they wished revenge to exist basically so they must follow
bull frogs rules in the six seals.

This has caused a greed for not wanting blood by and for satansts causing to want to be heard in
the earth in cofussion and making a secret deal wh earth and the matrix the deal with the matrix
was all satanists are only aload to speak the negative words in the dictionary.

The matrix was to be involved in placing buildingsin the ground threw prair in the earth know
spirtuality sais its time to brin that which is down up above ground by supportingtime gods and
foreighn gods with their heart soul and devices.

The matrix has offered to support to all bibles (the word of God) and meaning upon goo faith
(friends and family) with the deals in people and creatures.

I dare the next witch to make a bargain deal or promise or next drug deal. planet earth forbids the
deal to be a battery for the matrix.

You lost me.

 

[SCALCO]

I’m sorry, the comment does seem like I was calling you silly. That was not my intent, I was venting exasperation at the general situation. My sister’s personal theory is that every stupid idea devised by man gets recycled at least once every 50 years. Right or wrong, it is exasperating.

I tried to give a straightforward answer to your question, I’m sorry some of my word choices were so poor.

I didn’t take it that way, so no apology necessary. I appreciate the thought.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

RobHom,
well I was going by my own experience. Although I did not serve in Vietnam, the guys in my unit that did, said that they never had to wait to be shot at, before returning fire on the enemy.

Myself, I was never trained to think in such terms.

Jim

 

[SCALCO]

I understand what you mean I think…

and to give your case some credit there could be suggested perhaps that in other communist countries (eg. Mao’s China) there had been some very serious persecutions of christians, and one may have thought the same could have happened in Viet Nam…

although I’m not sure if it ever really did, what you quote I think is a mild prescription on paper…although admittedly we don’t know how it looks like in practice…

Even still though… what I mean is that even if what they were fighting for could have theoretically benefitted christians, the reason why they fought was not to aid the faith or serve Christ.

No official in the United States government, no general, no ambassador, no official whatsoever am I aware of is on record as ever having stated that the reason why they wanted freedom of religion in Viet Nam was in order so that the Vietnamese people could freely embrace Jesus Christ… rather I think what we will find if we look is that **they wanted this as a solemn principle in itself, that is to say, they wanted freedom of religion (among all the other individual rights) because this freedom was something solemn in itself, and not because there was necessarily any offical spoken thought that these people should be christians on that account **

And that’s exactly it… I don’t disagree that there was incredible evil present in the communist world, but the evil was not a matter of lack of western liberal democracy, it was something much deeper that had to do with the satanic atheism which adopted marxism as its vehicle to conquer the world, but it was not marxism that this red dragon adopted that was really the problem, nor was it a lack of western democratic institutions, but it had to do with a refusal to accept the only Son of God Whom they were nailing to the cross in those camps in Siberia, and there is no serious political actor on this side of the fence that ever in truth stated that the reason they were fighting against the Soviet Union, its allies and Communism, was in order to make the world more christian. They simply said they wanted the world to be more ‘free’… but not by Jesus Christ…and without this their war is simply their own ideological struggle.

The bolded part above is exactly what I meant. I could be wrong, but I think the overriding thought at the time was that the brand of communism they were fighting was evil and if left unchecked it would spread to other countries. Communists would imprison or kill anyone who disagreed with them. Until recently, I maintained that it was necessary to fight this war for that reason. This thread has made me less convinced and has led me to reexamine my views. I’m really not sure what to think right now and it will take some time to figure it out.

 

[bullfrog543]

scalco yes we did loose against our neibouring country in vietnam though i wasnt in a war. my post however obseen to some is ment in respect we shouldnt take war lightly and treat our neibours with respect like the bible teaches.

i was only trying to relate

 

[Walt_Oliver]

Thread temporarily closed for editing out of a large number of personal attacks. Will be reopened by the end of the weekend.