Views on Mormonism?

[Tony888]

I think we are abandoning the thread… And, that is not good.

Now, something I would like to hear - tell me about the seagulls that saved the Mormon crops. And is there a non-Mormon out there, like myself, who sees the Hand of God in this event?

God bless

I’ve never heard of this ‘miracle’
It sounds like a ‘faith promoting rumor’ which are present in all faiths.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think we are abandoning the thread… And, that is not good.

Now, something I would like to hear - tell me about the seagulls that saved the Mormon crops. And is there a non-Mormon out there, like myself, who sees the Hand of God in this event?

God bless

The Crickets and the Seagulls

The pioneers were eager to harvest their spring crops, but late spring frosts killed some of the crops, and a drought killed more of them. Then crickets came and began eating everything that was left. The pioneers did everything they could think of to fight these insects. Some people tried to frighten the crickets away by making loud noises; others tried to shake them off the plants. Some chased the crickets into piles of straw and set fire to them, and some chased the crickets into ditches filled with water to drown them. No matter what the pioneers did, however, the crickets kept coming. They were everywhere—on the trees and fences and in the houses, beds, and clothing.

The pioneers were very worried. If the crickets ate all the crops, the people would have nothing to eat and would die from starvation. For two weeks the people fought the crickets and prayed for Heavenly Father to help them. The stake president finally asked the Saints to hold a special day of fasting and prayer. Susan Noble Grant, who was sixteen years old at the time, described what then happened (display the picture of the miracle of the seagulls as you relate this account):

“The answer to our fasting and prayers came on a clear summer afternoon.

“We were fearfully alarmed, for all of a sudden, circling above our … fields, appeared great flocks of screaming gulls. ‘A new plague is descending upon us,’ was our first thought. Down the gray and white birds swooped in hundreds, then in thousands, uttering shrill … cries as they pounced upon [the crickets]. … Then a strange thing happened. As soon as they had gorged themselves, they sailed over to a nearby stream, took a few sips of water, disgorged [vomited] and returned to join their screaming companions. All our people stood in wonderment! Our prayers were answered” (quoted in Grant, p. 446).

The seagulls came back day after day for about three weeks. They ate crickets until all the crickets were gone. The Saints knew their prayers had been answered in a miraculous way. They were grateful that their crops and their lives had been spared.

In August 1848 the Saints had a feast to celebrate the harvest. They displayed their crops and had speeches, music, and dancing. They were grateful to Heavenly Father for helping them harvest a good crop.

…this is from a lesson that is taught to 8-11 year olds in the Mormon church.

As for whether or not you think it is a miracle…probably not, but as you can see, Mormon children to this day are taught that it was.

There are different accounts, ranging from no seagulls to isolated incidence of seagulls, but the story has been a part of Mormon folklore as long as there have been Mormons in Utah.

 

[mtolympus]

I understand that Mormons only accept the Bible “as it is correctly translated.” (One missionary told me, for example, that Matthew 16:18 must be a mistranslation). Joseph Smith started a new translation of the Bible, did he not? Why do you suppose, if it were God’s idea, and not Joseph Smith’s, that no other LDS prophet finished the job? Also, would it be hard for you LDS members to accept a new Bible translation, one that perhaps made clearer peculiarly LDS teachings?

The Joseph Smith translation of the Bible makes some of our teachings clearer to LDS members but it does little to help us discuss early church teachings with members of other churches. I find the KJV or NIV fine for this purpose.

Here is my interpretation of KJV Matthew 16:17-18, (Matthew 16:18 is only half of Jesus’ statement.)
In Matthew 16:17 Jesus told Simon Bar-jona that he was “blessed” because his understanding that Jesus was the “Christ, the Son of the living God” came not from man but by revelation from Father in heaven. Verse 18 starts “And I say also unto thee” showing that verse 17 is certainly as important as verse 18. Jesus then called Simon Barjona by a different name, Peter (which means rock), after Jesus explained that Simon had received his understanding by revelation from the Father. A more accurate interpretation from Jesus’ entire statement would be: Thou art Peter (a leader who receives revelation from the Father) upon this rock I will build my church.

 

[mtolympus]

I think we are abandoning the thread… And, that is not good.

Now, something I would like to hear - tell me about the seagulls that saved the Mormon crops. And is there a non-Mormon out there, like myself, who sees the Hand of God in this event?

God bless

Hi tqualey, and Rebbeca (thanks for the primary lesson). The story of the Crickets and Seagulls is fairly well documented but whether or not it was a miracle, of course, is a matter of faith. Here is a paragraph from a fairly un-biased source, The Mormon Experience, A History of the Latter-day Saints by Leaonard J. Arrington & Davis Bitton, p 104.

“Just when the prospect of an abundant spring harvest in 1848 lifted pioneer spirits, hoards of crickets… swarmed over the sprouting grain, Neither fire nor water nor broomsticks could halt the invasion. At the height of the plague Charles C. Rich cautioned the pioneers not to dismantle their wagons “for we might need them.” He may have been contemplating a move to California. At this point flocks of sea gulls from the Great Salt Lake appeared over the fields and began devouring the crickets. Many witnesses saw the intervention as providential; a remnant of the harvest was preserved, encouraging the Saints to remain in the valley. A Salt Lake City monument now commemorates the intervention of the birds”

 

[mtolympus]

Pantyhose used to also be required, but now they aren’t.

(they were never required for men) :tiphat:

Yes, panty hose on men would be frowned upon!

 

[Tony888]

Yes, panty hose on men would be frowned upon!

Hey, panty hose are proper male attire,
at least under a wet suit in very cold lake water.

 

[Telstar]

youtube.com/watch?v=k6oM1iLJH6k

Excellent! I love Gregorian Chant.

 

[mtolympus]

Separation from God is the very definition of hell. Either your are with God or you are not. You can’t be kind of sort of with God. Jesus explained very well, the sheep are separated from the goats…two groups of people. Nothing in there about any other group or places for those groups to live separate from God and be called His.

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” (Matt. 25:31-34)

When Christ returns, we will be judged according to our deeds, this judgement will be between good and evil. The sheep (righteous) are those who have cared for those who were hungry, thirsty, sick, or otherwise in need. “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt. 25:40)

The “sheep” could be from any church and individuals will inherit the kingdom prepared for them. Also, if we die before Christ returns indiviuals will be judged by Christ “according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” This is not the final judgement. The final judgement will occur beginning at the time of the resurrection.

 

[blueadept]

The Crickets and the Seagulls

The pioneers were eager to harvest their spring crops, but late spring frosts killed some of the crops, and a drought killed more of them. Then crickets came and began eating everything that was left. The pioneers did everything they could think of to fight these insects. Some people tried to frighten the crickets away by making loud noises; others tried to shake them off the plants. Some chased the crickets into piles of straw and set fire to them, and some chased the crickets into ditches filled with water to drown them. No matter what the pioneers did, however, the crickets kept coming. They were everywhere—on the trees and fences and in the houses, beds, and clothing.

The pioneers were very worried. If the crickets ate all the crops, the people would have nothing to eat and would die from starvation. For two weeks the people fought the crickets and prayed for Heavenly Father to help them. The stake president finally asked the Saints to hold a special day of fasting and prayer. Susan Noble Grant, who was sixteen years old at the time, described what then happened (display the picture of the miracle of the seagulls as you relate this account):

“The answer to our fasting and prayers came on a clear summer afternoon.

“We were fearfully alarmed, for all of a sudden, circling above our … fields, appeared great flocks of screaming gulls. ‘A new plague is descending upon us,’ was our first thought. Down the gray and white birds swooped in hundreds, then in thousands, uttering shrill … cries as they pounced upon [the crickets]. … Then a strange thing happened. As soon as they had gorged themselves, they sailed over to a nearby stream, took a few sips of water, disgorged [vomited] and returned to join their screaming companions. All our people stood in wonderment! Our prayers were answered” (quoted in Grant, p. 446).

The seagulls came back day after day for about three weeks. They ate crickets until all the crickets were gone. The Saints knew their prayers had been answered in a miraculous way. They were grateful that their crops and their lives had been spared.

In August 1848 the Saints had a feast to celebrate the harvest. They displayed their crops and had speeches, music, and dancing. They were grateful to Heavenly Father for helping them harvest a good crop.

…this is from a lesson that is taught to 8-11 year olds in the Mormon church.

As for whether or not you think it is a miracle…probably not, but as you can see, Mormon children to this day are taught that it was.

There are different accounts, ranging from no seagulls to isolated incidence of seagulls, but the story has been a part of Mormon folklore as long as there have been Mormons in Utah.

Isn’t there another faith promoting story about a Mormon wagon train traveling from Illinois to Utah that was starving and received a covey of quail in answer of their prayers (or something like that)?

 

[rainman10]

Discepolo, your view were really interesting. I was wondering about all of the do’s and don’t s
of the Mormon faith. My daughter won’t go shopping on a Sunday because she thinks that she is causing the cashier to work on the Sabbath. I told her that her boss is causing her to work on that day and that she will be there regardless of who shops on the sabbath. I also asked her why the women have long hair, only wear dresses or skirts and not pants to church, why no caffine but yet she drinks pepsi and eats chocolate. I don’t know if she realizes this but I won’t tell her. She asked about the dress and no pants and the person had no idea why. She said she would have to ask the bishop.
I find this all a bit crazy. Why would a church tell you what to wear, what to eat or drink etc. Tomorrow is her birthday. I thought she would give us some flack about going out to a restaurant on Sunday, but she is all for it. I don’t doubt about the niceness of the mormon people. This we saw with the family she lived with. Sometimes when people are that nice, I have a problem trusting them. They just look as though their up to something. I know I shouldn’t judge, so I apologize.
Keep the facts coming. I need to learn all that I can about them.
That is great that you still remain friends with them. My daughter made friends in the mormon church that she was baptized in but now they have moved her to a singles church which really doesn’t make any sense to me. She really isn’t happy about that. Maybe this is one step closer to her seeing that perhaps she didn’t think this through before jumping into this new faith.

Thanks once again for the info.

Have a blessed day and may God bless you

Michelle G 55

In the early 1970’s, my wife (Catholic) and myself (Mormon at the time, now happily a Catholic, too) attended my grandmother’s funeral. I was one of the pallbearers. My wife, unknowingly, wore a pants suit to the funeral (I had no clue that it was not allowed in the Mormon church) and she was made to leave the church. We had to rush home to have her change, hoping to make it back in time for the end of the funeral ceremony so I could get back to be a pallbearer. I was so angry at the time and full of resentment, but my wife, fortunately, taught me that I must forgive. Which I have done.

 

[Michelle_G_55]

Sorry I’m so late with this post. Just catching up on my reading from yesterdays post. About alcohol, when my daughter was sick, she took lots of Nyquil, which she use to tell me that Nyquil is loaded with alcohol. Funny isn’t it. Last night we celebrated my daughters birthday at a place called the Melting Pot. They give you 2 large pots of melted chocolate with dippers. I think the rules only apply when it is convenient. Sorry.

Have a wonderful day and thank the Lord for it’s beauty.

Michelle G 55

 

[TheExorcist]

In the early 1970’s, my wife (Catholic) and myself (Mormon at the time, now happily a Catholic, too) attended my grandmother’s funeral. I was one of the pallbearers. My wife, unknowingly, wore a pants suit to the funeral (I had no clue that it was not allowed in the Mormon church) and she was made to leave the church. We had to rush home to have her change, hoping to make it back in time for the end of the funeral ceremony so I could get back to be a pallbearer. I was so angry at the time and full of resentment, but my wife, fortunately, taught me that I must forgive. Which I have done.

How terribly exclusionary. Rebecca was this something you saw growing up?
Mormon wards still have that clone look as far as the dress goes. This was always a hard point on the mission. “oh yes, come to church but make sure you wear the right clothes” people were already uncomfortable enough being new to the church that sometimes the “dress code” was too much

 

[Tony888]

In the early 1970’s, my wife (Catholic) and myself (Mormon at the time, now happily a Catholic, too) attended my grandmother’s funeral. I was one of the pallbearers. My wife, unknowingly, wore a pants suit to the funeral (I had no clue that it was not allowed in the Mormon church) and she was made to leave the church. We had to rush home to have her change, hoping to make it back in time for the end of the funeral ceremony so I could get back to be a pallbearer. I was so angry at the time and full of resentment, but my wife, fortunately, taught me that I must forgive. Which I have done.

rainman, sorry to hear your story
Barring immodest dress, any clothes are allowed in a Ward building. Shame on whomever told your wife she had to go change from a respectable pant suit, to attend a funeral.

It is perfectly normal for non-members or ‘investigators’ to show up on Sunday wearing a wide range of clothes, including jeans and t-shirts. If they continue to attend, they do adopt the ‘Sunday uniform’ over time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, panty hose on men would be frowned upon!

 

[RebeccaJ]

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” (Matt. 25:31-34)

When Christ returns, we will be judged according to our deeds, this judgement will be between good and evil. The sheep (righteous) are those who have cared for those who were hungry, thirsty, sick, or otherwise in need. “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matt. 25:40)

The “sheep” could be from any church and individuals will inherit the kingdom prepared for them. Also, if we die before Christ returns indiviuals will be judged by Christ “according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” This is not the final judgement. The final judgement will occur beginning at the time of the resurrection.

There is but one Kingdom of God, and nothing you posted says otherwise.

 

[RebeccaJ]

How terribly exclusionary. Rebecca was this something you saw growing up?
Mormon wards still have that clone look as far as the dress goes. This was always a hard point on the mission. “oh yes, come to church but make sure you wear the right clothes” people were already uncomfortable enough being new to the church that sometimes the “dress code” was too much

I never saw a woman in a pant suit in a Mormon church ever, when I was growing up, but things have changed. When I went to my father in law’s funeral about a year ago I checked with a few Mormon family members to see if pants were alright. They said dress pants were fine, and that is what I wore. No one kicked me out.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Sorry I’m so late with this post. Just catching up on my reading from yesterdays post. About alcohol, when my daughter was sick, she took lots of Nyquil, which she use to tell me that Nyquil is loaded with alcohol. Funny isn’t it. Last night we celebrated my daughters birthday at a place called the Melting Pot. They give you 2 large pots of melted chocolate with dippers. I think the rules only apply when it is convenient. Sorry.

Have a wonderful day and thank the Lord for it’s beauty.

Michelle G 55

Alcohol is fine for medicinal purposes. My husband and I have a long running joke about needing a beer, for medicinal purposes, of course.

The chocolate thing is kind of funny. Growing up, my parents were ultra-conservative Mormons, with my mother coming from Mormon pioneer stock. I didn’t know what a cola was until I was a teenager and had a sip of a friend’s. I have many stories of my mom giving me her best “I’m disgusted” tone of voice, over coffee, tea, tobacco, short skirts, low cut shirts, men with long hair, women without bras, etc. I love her for all these things, and wouldn’t change her. All these stories make me smile.

But, chocolate was never considered as something that we shouldn’t have. I never heard of any Mormon who thought chocolate should be banned. Times have changed, my mother now has cans of cola in her house. She says it is for guests, but she never would have provided the evils of caffeinated drinks for guests when I was growing up. The only reason my mom would loosen up over this, is because the Mormon teaching has loosened up, as she is a very by the book kind of woman!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Hi tqualey, and Rebbeca (thanks for the primary lesson). The story of the Crickets and Seagulls is fairly well documented but whether or not it was a miracle, of course, is a matter of faith. Here is a paragraph from a fairly un-biased source, The Mormon Experience, A History of the Latter-day Saints by Leaonard J. Arrington & Davis Bitton, p 104.

“Just when the prospect of an abundant spring harvest in 1848 lifted pioneer spirits, hoards of crickets… swarmed over the sprouting grain, Neither fire nor water nor broomsticks could halt the invasion. At the height of the plague Charles C. Rich cautioned the pioneers not to dismantle their wagons “for we might need them.” He may have been contemplating a move to California. At this point flocks of sea gulls from the Great Salt Lake appeared over the fields and began devouring the crickets. Many witnesses saw the intervention as providential; a remnant of the harvest was preserved, encouraging the Saints to remain in the valley. A Salt Lake City monument now commemorates the intervention of the birds”

The “history” you posted is just a retelling of the same story.

Mormon crickets and seagulls have existed in the Great Basin area together for millennia. The Mormons planted their crops in the midst of an existing ecosystem. Sort of like people who plant expensive landscaping and then complain about the deer eating their plants.

I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the story, telling it, or viewing it as a miracle, just, it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tony888

I was not joking. Check this out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_gulls

God bless

I’ve never heard of this ‘miracle’
It sounds like a ‘faith promoting rumor’ which are present in all faiths.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Mtolympus,

Thanks

God bless

Hi tqualey, and Rebbeca (thanks for the primary lesson). The story of the Crickets and Seagulls is fairly well documented but whether or not it was a miracle, of course, is a matter of faith. Here is a paragraph from a fairly un-biased source, The Mormon Experience, A History of the Latter-day Saints by Leaonard J. Arrington & Davis Bitton, p 104.

“Just when the prospect of an abundant spring harvest in 1848 lifted pioneer spirits, hoards of crickets… swarmed over the sprouting grain, Neither fire nor water nor broomsticks could halt the invasion. At the height of the plague Charles C. Rich cautioned the pioneers not to dismantle their wagons “for we might need them.” He may have been contemplating a move to California. At this point flocks of sea gulls from the Great Salt Lake appeared over the fields and began devouring the crickets. Many witnesses saw the intervention as providential; a remnant of the harvest was preserved, encouraging the Saints to remain in the valley. A Salt Lake City monument now commemorates the intervention of the birds”