Views on Mormonism?

[pablope]

Heuchler,

Here is the statement you have completely misquoted, which says nothing of what you included as the erroneous deception of the people placing errors on the internet for the consumption of persons such as yourself:

page 218
Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. **Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, **by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

But if, after being put into a carriage and placed upon the road, after having everything prepared for the journey that infinite
page 219

Hi, Parker…thanks for your post…and for confirming LDS belief…especially the part I had bolded**…"…precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself,"**

**And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. **

So it is true that the LDS believes God was flesh before he became God…He had a beginning…so God to gain his being God.

So the LDS as not Christians then, since we have a different understanding of God’s beginning…

 

[pablope]

I am not trying to convince anyone of what we believe. My purpose in writting in the Catholic forum is to show that Mormons are Christians, we believe the Bible and that we can and should work together in the cause of Christ.

."

Sorry…but saying or claiming it does not make it so…your baptisms are not even considered valid by the CC.

And from Parker’s post 76…

[SIGN]Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with Him. **Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, **by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

**And a difference there is between our Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. **[/SIGN]
This clearly states one of the differences in beliefs between Christianity and the LDS…these are poles apart.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi, Parker…thanks for your post…and for confirming LDS belief…especially the part I had bolded**…"…precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself,"**

So it is true that the LDS believes God was flesh before he became God…He had a beginning.

So the LDS as not Christians then, since we have a different understanding of God’s beginning…

Pablope,

I quoted the entire page, even though realizing that that first paragraph was pure speculation on the part of Brigham Young. He had an opinion, and shared his opinion, but that doesn’t mean I share that same opinion on the topic of that first paragraph, although I do know that Heavenly Father has a body, and do believe that He lived on an earth just as Christ lived on this earth and was God with us while living on this earth.

By quoting the entire page, I was showing that Brigham Young was deliberately misquoted by the source of the statement that the post presented in quotation marks.

But you are correct that we have a different understanding of God having lived on an earth, according to Joseph Smith and which I believe also, but since I believe the Bible more literally than do you, if believing the literal Bible makes me a non-Christian in your mind, then I share that differentiation with Paul, with John, with Peter, with Stephen, and with James–and I rather like that company so I will share the label you have labeled them by your having labeled me, and will consider myself in their good company.

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen,

To be like Christ, who is usually in a person’s mind when they see the word “Master” with a capital “M” used in the New Testament, would mean that Christ can indeed “make you like the Master”–not the same person, of course, but “like” Him.

Christ is “like” the Father, but I realize that belief is not really considered accurate (although Christ taught it over and over) in how it is taught from what I have read by those who write about the “Trinity”.

Whether God the Father had a plan that included having spirit children be able to become like Christ through His grace and through the Father’s mercy, is the basic question that has its answer clearly in the Bible, but yet needs to be “found out” rather than be told without some thinking and reflecting on the part of the person doing the studying. I think the Bible should be studied and thought about and prayed about as to what God is teaching the reader through its teachings.

As to the non-belief in the Intercessory prayer that again comes forward in the comment about “polytheism”, I am comfortable that Christ knew exactly what He was praying that the Father would grant, and that His prayer was exactly corresponding to His Father’s will.

I’m not sure why you responded to my post.
1- Walnutleviosa points out that Mormons think they will become Gods.
2- You give Bible quotes to show why Mormons believe they will become Gods.
3- Reason dictates that Mormons believe there is more than one God (polytheism)
4- mwork and I just pointed out that as Monotheists people becoming God is irrational. (There can only by one God and the job is filled.)

Your response does not add anything to this discussion except to say you are comfortable with being a polytheist. Cool:thumbsup:

 

[ParkerD]

…
Your response does not add anything to this discussion except to say you are comfortable with being a polytheist. Cool:thumbsup:

No, Stephen, the problem is that your definition of polytheism does not take into account the Savior’s intercessory prayer, which talks about being “one” with Them. That is not how the world views the word “polytheism”.

Polytheism is reflective of Greek and Roman mythology. Since your beliefs about the Trinity derive from a Greek philosopher as one of their fundamental basis, then I would say that leans more toward a Deistic belief not shared certainly by the Jews and not shared certainly by me.

But I think the Savior would describe what He was praying for humankind to be with Him, as more “monotheism” (being One) than “polytheism”, given the connotation the world brings to the two words.

 

[mtolympus]

Sorry…but saying or claiming it does not make it so…your baptisms are not even considered valid by the CC.

In the New Testament Church that Jesus established, the members called themselves “Saints.” The name “Christians” for the followers of Christ apparently originated when non-believers first called the followers of Christ “Christians” at Antioch. “And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.” (Acts 11:26) Since the church did not originate the name Christian, no single denomination can claim ownership of the term. The fact that the Catholic Church does not recognise an LDS baptism makes complete sense to me, and it simply means that we are not Catholics. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. According to the Bible, those who follow and believe in Christ are called Christians.

 

[Stephen168]

No, Stephen, the problem is that your definition of polytheism does not take into account the Savior’s intercessory prayer, which talks about being “one” with Them. That is not how the world views the word “polytheism”.

Polytheism means more than one God, if Mormons become Gods, then there are more than one. You are comfortable with it; as a Christian, I’m not.

Since your beliefs about the Trinity derive from a Greek philosopher as one of their fundamental basis, …

Name the philosopher, his philosophy, and how it relates to the trinity.

 

[Stephen168]

The fact that the Catholic Church does not recognise an LDS baptism makes complete sense to me, and it simply means that we are not Catholics. We are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. According to the Bible, those who follow and believe in Christ are called Christians.

The Catholic Church accepts all Christian baptisms, so not accepting a Mormon baptism means you are not Christian. Just as a Jew or a Muslim would have to be baptism to be Christian, so would a Mormon.

 

[PaulDupre]

No, Stephen, the problem is that your definition of polytheism does not take into account the Savior’s intercessory prayer, which talks about being “one” with Them. That is not how the world views the word “polytheism”.

Polytheism is reflective of Greek and Roman mythology. Since your beliefs about the Trinity derive from a Greek philosopher as one of their fundamental basis, then I would say that leans more toward a Deistic belief not shared certainly by the Jews and not shared certainly by me.

But I think the Savior would describe what He was praying for humankind to be with Him, as more “monotheism” (being One) than “polytheism”, given the connotation the world brings to the two words.

So to address the issue of monotheism vs polytheism, you (in true Mormon fashion) redefine the word monotheism to mean “trillions of gods all united in purpose”, so that there is really no difference in your mind between monotheism and polytheism.

Do you really think that works?

 

[ParkerD]

So to address the issue of monotheism vs polytheism, you (in true Mormon fashion) redefine the word monotheism to mean “trillions of gods all united in purpose”, so that there is really no difference in your mind between monotheism and polytheism.

Do you really think that works?

Paul,

When you meet and greet the Savior in the afterlife, you can ask Him directly I suppose, what He meant by using the words that translated to–

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;”

You can ask Him if He meant that humankind were to become polytheistic with Him, or were to become “monotheistic” with Them.

I do think there is a difference between “monotheism” as defined by Catholics, between “polytheism” as defined by the Greeks and the Romans, and between the Godhead as defined by Stephen and by Peter and by Christ and by Paul.

As for what words I would use, I think the best words are “one with Them”–and I think the Savior knew what He was praying for from His Father and our Father, and that He was completely in accordance with the will of the Father in His prayer to Him. I don’t think the world has come up with a single word that fits those words in His Intercessory prayer.

 

[mtolympus]

The Catholic Church accepts all Christian baptisms, so not accepting a Mormon baptism means you are not Christian. Just as a Jew or a Muslim would have to be baptism to be Christian, so would a Mormon.

The Catholic Church accepts all Catholic and most Protestant baptisms which only means we are neither Catholic nor Protestant and that we don’t accept the Nicene Creed. Unlike a Jew or a Muslim, Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (1 John 4:15), who died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead on the third day. (1 Cor, 15: 3-4) LDS are baptised “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” and believe as we are told in the Bible that there is only “one baptism.” (Mark 16:20)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Eternity and infinity are hard terms for mortal beings to understand. They mean that there is no beginning and there is no end. So when the Bible say in the beginning we must ask “the beginning of what.” In my opinion, the beginning is when God created by Jesus Christ our Universe. There is no need to speculate beyond this creation. We believe all of John 1. Jesus is the divine creator and he was with God in the beginning when God said “Let us create man in our image, after our likeness.” (Gen 1:26)

Infinity speaks to space, God being infinite, means He is not bound to a location. Eternity speaks to time, God being eternal means He is not bound by time.

God is without beginning or end, and so naming the Son in His relationship to the Father as “in the beginning”, names the Son as God, eternally Son, not becoming or made. Never being a time when the Father is God alone, without His Word, the Son, or without the Spirit of God. Three Persons revealed as One God.

Col. 1:15-17 is St. Paul, teaching that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Psalms 89:28. Jesus, being the Messiah who is prefigured in the anointing of David. Christ, being the annointed one, is the firstborn of the Most High. The significance being the firstborn is the heir of the Father. To think that St. Paul is teaching that the Son of God is a creature, is missing what is being taught , entirely.

St. Paul goes on to teach in his passage of scripture that Christ is the head of the body, His church. And through Him we are presented before the Father. It is because He is the Son, the second person of the Trinity. God who lowered Himself and became Man, that we are brought before God unblemished. There is no man in all creation that could do this. Only God can do this, Jesus Christ, who is fully God. Revealed as One with the Father.

There is but One God, and there is no,other.

 

[LatterDayLady]

The Catholic Church accepts all Catholic and most Protestant baptisms which only means we are neither Catholic nor Protestant and that we don’t accept the Nicene Creed. Unlike a Jew or a Muslim, Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (1 John 4:15), who died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead on the third day. (1 Cor, 15: 3-4) LDS are baptised “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” and believe as we are told in the Bible that there is only “one baptism.” (Mark 16:20)

I remember way way WAY back when I was confirmed Catholic. The Priest was going over the last of the ceremony details, and he asked me if I was ever baptized Mormon. I remember thinking “what’s that? Never heard of it” (I was young)." He laughed and said something like “Oh, you’d know. Mormons are really ‘out there’!” Wonderful man, but not a big fan clealy! Pretty funny considering my current circumstances!

Anyway, I can vouch for the Catholic feelings towards LDS baptisms :tsktsk:

 

[Marie5890]

Anyway, I can vouch for the Catholic feelings towards LDS baptisms :tsktsk:

Well since the LDS church reject all baptisms done by other faith denominations it’s really not that big of a deal dont you think?

It’s not so much “feelings” either, by either church. It’s a matter of theology.

Just keeping it honest.

 

[mtolympus]

Col. 1:15-17 is St. Paul, teaching that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Psalms 89:28. Jesus, being the Messiah who is prefigured in the anointing of David. Christ, being the annointed one, is the firstborn of the Most High. The significance being the firstborn is the heir of the Father. To think that St. Paul is teaching that the Son of God is a creature, is missing what is being taught , entirely.

Yes, Jesus is the heir of the Father. We are also the children of God and Jesus is our brother. Therefore we may become joint-heirs with Christ and “we may be also be glorified together.”

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

 

[mtolympus]

Well since the LDS church reject all baptisms done by other faith denominations it’s really not that big of a deal dont you think?

It’s not so much “feelings” either, by either church. It’s a matter of theology.

Just keeping it honest.

I absolutly agree. And on that note: Goodnight everybody.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The Catholic Church accepts all Catholic and most Protestant baptisms which only means we are neither Catholic nor Protestant and that we don’t accept the Nicene Creed. Unlike a Jew or a Muslim, Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (1 John 4:15), who died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead on the third day. (1 Cor, 15: 3-4) LDS are baptised “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” and believe as we are told in the Bible that there is only “one baptism.” (Mark 16:20)

We are baptized into the Kingdom of Heaven, in and through, Jesus Christ. Baptism is permanent, cannot be undone, and has no need to be done more than once. Baptism makes us a new creature, heirs to the Kingdom to which we are baptized into.

A valid baptism requires that the intent of the baptism is the same as the Catholic Church. This intent includes being baptized into the Life of the Holy Trinity.

Mormons say the words but do not baptize with the same intent as Christians do.

Those who are already baptized Christians have no need to be baptized again. A Mormon baptism is not valid, and so a person who comes to Jesus Christ, is baptized into His Kingdom.

This isn’t to say that Mormons do not have the same gift given to all by God, which is a desire for God. Or, that the desire of individual Mormons to seek and follow the Son of God is diminished. However, the desire is not fulfilled in its entirety outside of Christ’s Church.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, Jesus is the heir of the Father. We are also the children of God and Jesus is our brother. Therefore we may become joint-heirs with Christ and “we may be also be glorified together.”

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” (Rom. 8:16-17)

You are not God and never will be.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I remember way way WAY back when I was confirmed Catholic. The Priest was going over the last of the ceremony details, and he asked me if I was ever baptized Mormon. I remember thinking “what’s that? Never heard of it” (I was young)." He laughed and said something like “Oh, you’d know. Mormons are really ‘out there’!” Wonderful man, but not a big fan clealy! Pretty funny considering my current circumstances!

Anyway, I can vouch for the Catholic feelings towards LDS baptisms :tsktsk:

I doubt your priest would see the humor.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

Hello to you, and I hope you have had a fine day. Our autumn here is breathtakingly gorgeous this year, and today was another beautiful day.

Hello, Parker
I guess ‘general conference’ must be over, or winding down, since all of the LDS folks have been coming back to the forums after being gone for a while.

To tell you the truth, today was a tad better than yesterday. We had an early snowstorm yesterday and last night. Early in the day, they were saying we might get 10-12", but luckily we only got 3-4" around here. Since there were still a lot of leaves left in our two giant oak trees (about 4 ft diameter), and many of the other trees around us, there were a lot of fallen branches (some very big ones) all around the yard this morning. The snow was very heavy and wet, then the wind kicked it up another notch. That’s never a good combination. LOL

Latter-day Saints don’t “say he was telling the truth” other than a partial quarter truth~snip~So, he told Eve “you shall not die” ~snip~ although it isn’t clear if she knew what “shalt surely die” meant, in her condition of innocence).

That’s the difference between LDS and almost every other Christian denomination. There’s no doubt in my mind that he was lying about everything. He wanted to be sure he could convince her, so he told a whopper of a lie. I don’t think she realized what it meant to ‘die’, either. But, she knew God told them not to even touch it, and it doesn’t change the fact that she did it willingly, knowing it was forbidden. She wanted to be ‘like God’ because she knew He was powerful.

He told Eve, “your eyes shall be opened, knowing good and evil”. He also said “ye shall be as gods”. Those were two separate conditions–the opening of eyes to “know good and evil” and the condition of “be as gods”.

He said knowing ‘good & evil’ would make them ‘as Gods’, but that was the biggest lie of all. Every man and woman that’s ever walked the earth knows about good and evil, but none of them will ever be ‘Gods’. There’s only one God. Satan wanted to be like God, too. He wanted to be greater than God. He was the most powerful and intelligent angel that God ever created, but he wanted more. He was jealous of the love God had for Adam & Eve because they were inferior to him, and he couldn’t understand why God paid so much attention to them, instead of him. He was an ‘attention whore’ that thought the world should revolve around him. That’s why he tempted them with becoming ‘like Gods’, because that’s what he wanted.

Their eyes were opened, but it didn’t make them ‘Gods’. It did make them realize that they’d hurt God, who really loved them. ‘Knowing good and evil’ opened their conscience and made them more vulnerable to the influence of evil, by raising their curiosity about it.

What I meant by my earlier comment is that the world takes the temptation of Satan and makes it into a complete lie rather than a partial lie, and thus allows Satan to have still been the deceiver and hence the teacher by having said the exact opposite of what he wanted the “students” to believe.~~

It is a complete lie. I know you won’t believe it, but Joseph Smith’s idea about what it means is wrong, as well as his theory of the preexistence. He lied to steal people away from other churches, so they’d join his, just like Satan lied to separate Adam & Eve from God, because he was jealous of them.

Telstar,

I didn’t re-post your comment, since it was so far off the mark that it would be completely a mockery of Christ and the plan of salvation to re-post it.

I know it was harsh, but believing that Satan was telling the truth about anything in that passage is very dangerous for any soul to consider. I’m sorry for being so blunt, but I take it as a very serious threat to anyone’s salvation. There’s no way to ‘sugar coat’ it to make it more palatable. If I wasn’t so sure that it was a serious danger to souls, I wouldn’t have said anything like that. I’m sorry if I offended you.

As far as my beliefs on the matter of becoming like ChristsnipSatan intended to destroy God’s plan of salvation, and still does that every day to everyone he can influence, and that God’s plan of salvation included very clear teachings about “be ye therefore perfect”, about repentance which means becoming a better person day by day which leads on an upward path of progress, and about really and truly becoming “like Christ”.

I totally agree that Satan is trying to destroy souls. He’ll never stop until he’s finally chained in hell, forever. We just disagree on how he does it, and how we become ‘perfect’. We’re supposed to become more like Jesus by following what He taught us, and not focus on gaining power. We should focus on loving all of the people that He’s placed in our lives, and by being a good example. I know I need to work harder on that, myself.

When Peter lost a measure of faith as Christ had asked him to walk on the water to come out to where he was on the water~~

We all have moments when we lose our focus and our faith weakens. If we had faith the size of a mustard seed, we could all move mountains, but not everyone has that kind of faith. We all need to work on building our ‘faith muscles’ and praying for each other, so we can all make it through, one day at a time.