Views on Mormonism?

[ParkerD]

Parker this is beyond hypocritical. Your group baptized priests!! You’ve baptized Pope John Paul II six times!! That is outrageous.

Miriam,

I take no responsibility for those errors in both judgment and not following the rules of submission for ordinances. I was not involved in any way.

 

[Denise1957]

Denise,

What the Jewish leaders had missed out on is understanding Moses’ prophecy, which they should have understood by hearkening to the Holy Ghost, and that prophecy was the prophecy about the “prophet like unto Moses”, who was Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost testifies of the reality of Jesus Christ. Just because Stephen said “ye” doesn’t mean he wasn’t addressing each individual there–on the contrary, he was addressing each individual there.

Yes, Latter-day Saints do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost, the most important of which is the knowledge that Jesus is the living Christ, the Son of the living God, and that He fulfilled or will yet fulfill all the Messianic prophecies including of His coming to reign on earth in the Millennium.

Thanks, Parker, for taking the time to respond to my question. But I see that it’s quite a stretch of the imagination to say or think that St. Stephen was emphasizing the Holy Ghost giving truths to ‘individuals,’ as you have previously said. He does not say this at all.

I understand that LDS do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost. But again, St. Stephen does not mention any sort of individualism.
Any sort of supposed individualism by St. Stephen has to be inferred, because he himself does not address this issue specifically.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

It was indeed the temptation that Satan used to Eve only (not to Adam) that “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

I find it always interesting that people use Satan’s temptation as their teacher about what God had as His plan for humankind. I think that is an unhelpful way to look at being taught by the Bible–to stop with those words and say now one knows the will of God on the subject.

But that is what consistently happens. People will not take the many, many passages that talk about becoming like Christ, becoming a joint heir with Him, being made “ruler over many things” through learning complete unselfishness, unconditional love, and the kind of faith described in Hebrews 11. Instead, they dwell on the temptation of Satan who thus becomes the teacher and they say, “That’s the way it is, and that’s all, folks–Satan knows why we are here, and was being perfectly truthful as always.” (Not my way of looking at the way Satan tempts, at all–his way is to always deceive, always.)

So will Adam and Eve become gods?

I also think that it is interesting that the Mormon church teaches that if Satan had not tempted Eve, we would not have bodies. So, big high five to Satan? or is the Mormon church wrong on that matter?

 

[mwok]

Let me take one point at a time. My purpose is not to prove our doctrine to you, but only to show that Mormons do believe the Bible.

The Holy Ghost gives comfort, power, and understanding of truth that supersedes the natural or mortal level. Mary, Elisabeth, and John were each fulfilling very different purposes for God when the Holy Ghost came upon them. It was the Holy Ghost that gave them the power and understanding that was required to accomplish their missions. “You will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you.” (Acts 1:8)

Brigham Young was correct. Jesus is not the son of the Holy Ghost, even though in Matthew he was called “child of the Holy Ghost.” (Matt. 1:18) John the Baptist’s birth was also a miracle, for his mother Elisabeth was barren, and both of his parents were “well stricken in years.” (Luke 1:7) John “was filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.” (Luke 1:15) Therefore, John might also be called a child of the Holy Ghost, even though Zacharias is his father. Jesus is “the only begotten of the Father” (John 1:14) and “shall be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same as being born of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stephen168]

I guess that means we are Christians after all!

No, Joseph Smith lead his followers into Apostasy and they reject the God of the New Testament.

 

[Stephen168]

I looked today at an article by Stephen Robinson in the LDS Ensign magazine that discussed the Greek philosophy influence on the Trinitarian doctrine. But it doesn’t “name the Christian philosopher responsible”–it’s just evident in the outcome.

I’m not surprised. I’ve never read an article by a Mormon that ever tried to clearly link a Greek Philosopher with the trinity. You might also remember that Jesus Christ was born in a place were Greek culture was everywhere. I don’t think it was an accident.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Niether you or I will ever prove which of us is really following Christ’s teachings. However, the non-believers of Antioch likely knew little about Christ’s teachings when they called the disciples of Jesus “Christians”. You prove from the Bible that the disciples were called “Catholics”, and I will prove from the Bible that they were called “Saints.” We will then know whether Catholics or Latter-day Saints are the real Christians.

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)*
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).*

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).*

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.*

catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.*

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)*
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)*
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)*
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)*

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).*
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.*

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).*

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

 

[mtolympus]

Thanks, Parker, for taking the time to respond to my question. But I see that it’s quite a stretch of the imagination to say or think that St. Stephen was emphasizing the Holy Ghost giving truths to ‘individuals,’ as you have previously said. He does not say this at all.

I understand that LDS do see an importance to individual truths being given to people by the Holy Ghost. But again, St. Stephen does not mention any sort of individualism.
Any sort of supposed individualism by St. Stephen has to be inferred, because he himself does not address this issue specifically.

Hello Denise and Parker.

It is an interesting discussion you are having. Hope you don’t mind if I put in my :twocents: worth.

There are several puposes of the Holy Ghost. The Bible tells us that the Holy Ghost is sometimes called the Comforter or the Spirit of truth (John 14:16-17), and “shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance” (John 14:26), testify of Christ (John 15:26), “guide you into all truth,” and “show you things to come” (John 16:13), and you will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you. (Acts 1:8). Here are a few more verses from the Bible that tell us that the Holy Ghost conveys spiritual truth to man:

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (1 Cor. 2:11-13)

Hope this helps.

 

[ParkerD]

So will Adam and Eve become gods?

I also think that it is interesting that the Mormon church teaches that if Satan had not tempted Eve, we would not have bodies. So, big high five to Satan? or is the Mormon church wrong on that matter?

mwok,

Adam and Eve repented, and believed in their personal redemption through the coming of the Son of God to the earth at a future day from their day. When Enoch, the descendant of Adam, was taken from the earth because of his righteousness along with the city of Enoch, it was because he had been taught the truths of the gospel by his ancestors through Adam’s teachings and through Seth. (See Hebrews 11:5 to read that Enoch was “translated that he should not see death”.)

I happened to read a catechism recently that if I understood correctly, teaches Catholics that God brings about good from the evil that Satan does. I don’t think that means Catholics are taught “big high five to Satan” (do you?)–but for Latter-day Saints, there is a similar view that God brings about good eventually from the evil that Satan does, which also includes the understanding that “there must needs be opposition in all things”.

Let me know if you need me to try and find that catechism for you, and I’ll try and find it again.

 

[Stephen168]

So will Adam and Eve become gods?

I also think that it is interesting that the Mormon church teaches that if Satan had not tempted Eve, we would not have bodies. So, big high five to Satan? or is the Mormon church wrong on that matter?

I think it is more that God put them in a position that they had to sin. That is the kind of loving person the Mormon god is.

 

[mtolympus]

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)*
Jesus’ Church is called catholic (“universal” in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of “all nations” (Matt. 28:19–20).*

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).*

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to “make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, “the Catholic Church,” at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.*

catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.*

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)*
The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)*
The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)*
The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)*

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).*
He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.*

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus’ authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls “the pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim. 3:15).*

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, “He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12–13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

Members of Jesus’ Church were called Saints at the time the people of Antioch called the disciples “Christians” and this is before they were called Catholics.

 

[mwok]

mwok,

Adam and Eve repented, and believed in their personal redemption through the coming of the Son of God to the earth at a future day from their day. When Enoch, the descendant of Adam, was taken from the earth because of his righteousness along with the city of Enoch, it was because he had been taught the truths of the gospel by his ancestors through Adam’s teachings and through Seth. (See Hebrews 11:5 to read that Enoch was “translated that he should not see death”.)

I happened to read a catechism recently that if I understood correctly, teaches Catholics that God brings about good from the evil that Satan does. I don’t think that means Catholics are taught “big high five to Satan” (do you?)–but for Latter-day Saints, there is a similar view that God brings about good eventually from the evil that Satan does, which also includes the understanding that “there must needs be opposition in all things”.

Let me know if you need me to try and find that catechism for you, and I’ll try and find it again.

I have read what the Church teaches on God allowing evil to happen and causing good to happen from that evil.

But could you please answer my two questions?

1. Does the Mormon church teach that Adam and Eve will become gods?
2. Does the Mormon church teach that we would not have bodies if Adam and Eve had not fallen?

 

[mwok]

Members of Jesus’ Church were called Saints at the time the people of Antioch called the disciples “Christians” and this is before they were called Catholics.

Where in the Bible can I find that early Christians were called saints?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Members of Jesus’ Church were called Saints at the time the people of Antioch called the disciples “Christians” and this is before they were called Catholics.

And we still are.

We are called many things. Saints, the Body of Christ, a royal nation, a holy people, prophets, priests and kings. They are all speaking of the same thing, Christ’s Church, which is much more than a social organization of like-minded believers.

Perhaps you are unaware, today (Nov. 1) is All Saints Day. Our priest gave a beautiful homily at mass earlier this evening. Reminding us that when the waters of baptism were poured over us, we were called then to be saints. Which means, we are called to be holy.

Beloved:
See what love the Father has bestowed on us
that we may be called the children of God.
Yet so we are.
The reason the world does not know us
is that it did not know him.
Beloved, we are God’s children now;
what we shall be has not yet been revealed.
We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him,
for we shall see him as he is.
Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure,
as he is pure.

1 Jn 3:1-3

 

[Denise1957]

Hello Denise and Parker.

It is an interesting discussion you are having. Hope you don’t mind if I put in my :twocents: worth.

There are several puposes of the Holy Ghost. The Bible tells us that the Holy Ghost is sometimes called the Comforter or the Spirit of truth (John 14:16-17), and “shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance” (John 14:26), testify of Christ (John 15:26), “guide you into all truth,” and “show you things to come” (John 16:13), and you will receive power when the Holy Ghost comes upon you. (Acts 1:8). Here are a few more verses from the Bible that tell us that the Holy Ghost conveys spiritual truth to man:

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.” (1 Cor. 2:11-13)

Hope this helps.

Hi mtolympus, it’s fine with me if you want to put your two cents worth in. You have provided good scripture quotes regarding the Holy Ghost. However, Parker was inferring something about St. Stephen’s testimony that wasn’t actually there, IMO.

While the Holy Ghost does indeed teach us, He does not teach anything contradictory or different to what Our Lord has taught, as far as I am aware. Truth does not change, so the Holy Ghost gives testimony to what Our Lord has taught already - sometimes we just need reminding.

John 14:25-26 says:

25.These things I have spoken to you, abiding with you.
26. But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I have said to you.

Our Lord Jesus said above…“whatsoever I have said to you.” The Paraclete does not teach anything other than what Our Lord has already taught. The paraclete teaches the truth of Our Lord Jesus, and any prophesy means proclaiming the truth of Jesus Christ - not something new and different, or foretelling a future event.

 

[NewSeeker]

NewSeeker,

I suppose one could call it an assumption. As you are probably aware, the word that became translated to “Trinity” was not in use before 150 AD or so. The words of the Nicene Creed, being non-Biblical in the very important description of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, shows that there was a development of what you called a “dogma”.

I looked today at an article by Stephen Robinson in the LDS Ensign magazine that discussed the Greek philosophy influence on the Trinitarian doctrine. But it doesn’t “name the Christian philosopher responsible”–it’s just evident in the outcome.

The non-biblical terms ‘exaltation’, ‘endowment’, ‘outer darkness’, and ‘second token of the aaronic priesthood’ aren’t found prior to 150 AD either. You’re correct about the development of the trinitarian dogma; doctrinal development is perfectly fine if the Holy Spirit is at the helm.

It’s understandable why you think “it’s just evident in the outcome”, as you believe the imaginary Great Apostasy actually happened. Thanks for clarifying the assumptions underlying your position. I’ve never heard of any Christian philosopher (until Aquinas) who linked Aristotle to Christian teaching. I’ve read all of the Early Church Father’s writings and have never seen anything like that anywhere.

 

[truthsave]

mtolympus:

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Cor. 2:11-13)

Denise 1957 already gave you a good answer: *While the Holy Ghost does indeed teach us, He does not teach anything contradictory or different to what Our Lord has taught, as far as I am aware. Truth does not change, so the Holy Ghost gives testimony to what Our Lord has taught already - sometimes we just need reminding. *

I have to add: the only thing for us to defend ourselves from phaulse prophets, revelations, apparitions and so on that can be the product of the devil it is just this: if they teach something contradictory to what is in the Gospels and traditions they are not from God. If they teach something different, even if this difference is extremely good for us, it means they come from the adversary.
Even mormon have the same attitude with other teaching: if they say something different from mormon doctrine it is from the adversary. But you don’t think it is tricky?
So many phaulse prophets can come and doctrine with the same attitude. People following other doctrine they do just this. They feel they are true, if not they wouldn’t do it.
But they opened the first door with one reason or the other.

Do you really think you or me we could ever be able to detect satan in another way?
We are not even capable (at least me I cannot speak for you or somebody else) to detect a serial killer and when we discover he is our well mannerd next door neibourgh we are very shocked by the situation.
Satan is much more experienced then any human being and is also an angel so he must be in his work even more subtel then a serial killer. He is convincing, intelligent, seducing, calm, extremely well mannered, extremely good talker, and goes alway to your own way not to shock you too much with something you could reject and so on. If not how do you think he could be so succseful in his deceiving work?
So you really think satan is loud or explicit evil (of course he can be also) bad mannered? Who will ever fool this way?
Generally people think what is “obviously” bad in an elementary way is the evil. The real evil is like a cancer, it is like your own cell, you cannot detect it if not being absolutely faithfull to the teaching of the gospel (the four for mormons, not Joseph Smith revelation).
St. Paul advised many times this way, but of course was also prophetized many would be deceived.
If we don’t stick to the four gospels as Christ real and only teaching we open the door to any kind of doctrine just because we feel it is true.

I hope this make sense.

 

[cashare]

nice…

 

[bz5]

I think we could all admit that people of good will can read the Bible and come to different conclusions. The Bible itself tells us in 2 Peter 3:16:“As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” We have in Acts the example of the eunuch who is studying the scriptures but admits he needs someone to interpret it.

So I go back to the point about Jesus establishing a church, one that would last forever, that would be a final authority, one that the Holy Spirit would guide into all truth. That’s the church we can trust, and I can’t see Jesus founding it only to let it disappear almost immediately from the earth, while He went to another land to found another church that so completely disappeared from the earth that we don’t even know where it was.

The Catholic church, as someone pointed out, was being called Catholic with a capital C, not just in the ‘universal’ sense, by AD 106. Yet we know it was not a smooth path of orthodoxy from there until the 1500s. There were many heretical ideas - the Arians, the Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, nestorians, monophysites, and on and on- we can still read their ideas, we still know who came up with them, we still know the early church fathers and councils who fought the heresies and with what arguments. So to me, it’s obvious that the Catholic church has neither ‘whitewashed’ history to show that there were never competing ideas, and that it is impossible that a great apostasy could have happened so quickly and so completely that we cannot even see it happening in history. If the Mormon church was indeed founded by Jesus, then it existed in time. So who were some of the individuals who taught the distinctly Mormon ideas we see? Who changed them? Who tried to defend the truth? There had to be many who would. As some Protestants tend to see church history as “the Book of Acts, then 1500 years of the whore of Babylon, then Martin Luther,” it does seem that the LDS church has very vague ideas about a great apostasy that occurred in a shadowy time we can’t know much about, then 1700 years or so of spiritual darkness, then Joseph Smith. But history - written down, detailed, vibrant history, warts and all - does not seem a friend to either of these latter two ideas.

I KNOW for sure that many many Protestants and LDS members want to follow God and do strive to live good moral upright lives, but it makes me sad to see them living without the fullness of truth that God wants us to have through the church He founded and has guided for 2,000 years - full of individual sinners, which makes it all the more remarkable that it has lasted longer than any government or dynasty in the world.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh Rebecca, I was trying to say something uplifting and positive here. Don’t be a Debbie Downer!

Yes, I know, but a half truth is not uplifting or positive. The Downer is that Mormons here try so hard to make their religion look like something it is not, all the while seeking to undermine the faith of Christians.