Views on Mormonism?

[Tony888]

By the way, I was thinking about only the President (supreme leader?) getting the inspirations or revelations or prophecies from God - and everyone else being excluded. There really is not much support for this in the bible.

Hi tqualey,
I feel your view of LDS revelation needs significant expansion

Every member of the LDS church is expected to received revelation, or guidance from the Holy Spirit. It is not exclusive to the President of the Church. We believe our ability to receive said revelation is primarly a result of following God’s commandments, of scripture study and sincere prayer on the areas we seek guidance.

We also believe our revelation is by nature limited to our personal stewardship, or areas of responsibility - THIS IS CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND.

• A teenager might receive guidance on dealing with friends and family, what college or career to persue. This might be better known as personal revelation.
• A parent has an expaned stewardship and thus would be expected to receive guidance to help them lead their family.
• A Ward Bishop has an expanded stewardship and would receive guidance and inspiration to help counsel and lead the members of his ward
• A Stake President has an expanded stewardship that includes guiding the bishops in his stake
• This expanding stewardship continues on up the organization until the President/Prophet of the LDS Church. His stewardship expands beyond the obvious church boundaries to include non-members.

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi, TexasKnight,

I really do not have time to do your work. If you want a question answered, then ask it so that going back to past links is not required.

Christ was quite clear that there would be NO marriage in heaven. Period. He chided the Sadduces for their lack of knowledge of both Scripture and of the Power of God - and it may be well to think about what He said.

God bless

No idea what your issue is here. I agree with you. I am Catholic. My screen name comes from being a 4th Degree Knight. Somewhere, we have had a misunderstanding.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tony888,

Expand away! I believe I was correctly quoting Naf623 on this matter … but, maybe I am mistaken.

Although you deleted my references, I was trying to show that revelation was not limited by a person’s position, age or any other factor. Eli and Annas should have been very open to God’s Word - but were just the opposite.

Samuel, who, according to your list, was probably was too young to receive a revelation from God - or - should only be getting one about ‘…friends and family…’ and not about how the High Priest was a major failure!

If I am in objective error about identifying that the CEO of the LDS organization is the only one who can recieve relevations from God, then I apologize.

I do, however, find it strange that one would appear to be trying to limit who God reveals His message to (apparently nothing for pre-teens, then teens get ‘x’, young adults get ‘y’ , older adults ‘z’ and so forth.) As I recall, “The Spirit will blow where it will …” (John 3:8). Maybe these groupings by age have no real meaning to God.

Anyway, is there any other item you would like to comment on? Maybe how Mormons view the nature of God or the Blessed Trinity because these topics have posts - and if you are new this thread, you may be seeing what makes for a good topic and resonse dialogue arrangement.

Have a great day!

God bless

Tom

Hi tqualey,
I feel your view of LDS revelation needs significant expansion

Every member of the LDS church is expected to received revelation, or guidance from the Holy Spirit. It is not exclusive to the President of the Church. We believe our ability to receive said revelation is primarly a result of following God’s commandments, of scripture study and sincere prayer on the areas we seek guidance.

We also believe our revelation is by nature limited to our personal stewardship, or areas of responsibility - THIS IS CRITICAL TO UNDERSTAND.

• A teenager might receive guidance on dealing with friends and family, what college or career to persue. This might be better known as personal revelation.
• A parent has an expaned stewardship and thus would be expected to receive guidance to help them lead their family.
• A Ward Bishop has an expanded stewardship and would receive guidance and inspiration to help counsel and lead the members of his ward
• A Stake President has an expanded stewardship that includes guiding the bishops in his stake
• This expanding stewardship continues on up the organization until the President/Prophet of the LDS Church. His stewardship expands beyond the obvious church boundaries to include non-members.

 

[KathleenGee]

On the side here, I just found out that Fr Robert Barron is finally bringing to screen, about 70% of the PBS stations here in the USA, his Catholicism Project. Four episodes will be aired. It took him many years to produce this program.

The program will show the life and conditions and faith of the early martyrs, the ‘dark side’ of the Catholic Church – the Crusades, the Inquisition, and slavery. The program was filmed in various locations throughout the world.

There are 10 DVD’s on sale at Wordonfire.org, that has a companion book and study guide.

I think this would be good for the Mormons to watch, and the focus is on the Catholic Church itself.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TexanKnight,

Great.

Please consider going back and editing your personal information stating that you are a Catholic.

Thanks and God Bless

Tom

No idea what your issue is here. I agree with you. I am Catholic. My screen name comes from being a 4th Degree Knight. Somewhere, we have had a misunderstanding.

 

[Doxiemom]

This is a fantastic article on the subject from Fr. Richard John Neuhaus (whom I’m reading a bunch of lately).

irr.org/mit/neuhaus.html

One of my favorite points is that these are somewhat different questions:

1. Is Mormonism christian?
2. Are Mormons christians?

Objectively, the answer to #1 is clearly no since they deny major aspects of christian doctrine.

#2 is not so easy. The definition of a christian is not “one who assents to the doctrines and teachings of christianity.” It is “one who has accepted the Grace offered by God through Christ in his life.”

So my answer is that Mormonism is a non-christian doctrinal system which many well meaning christians mistakenly adhere to. (Fr. Neuhaus explains it better)

Voted #1 best answer to date by Doxiemom

 

[PaulDupre]

"truthsave:

So your official answer is LDS will never become gods that will populate other planets with their epouses.

My ‘official’ answer is that we do not teach anything more than that we will live forever still as the family units we are a part of in this life. Further official doctrine has not been provided: some members interpret it as you have, others do not.
However, I do not understand why this matters?

Really?? You don’t teach anything else?? So you would disavow your church’s Gospel Principles manual which is used to teach new members the basic principles of the LDS “gospel”?

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. He has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).
2. They will become gods.
3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

• Gospel Principles, chapter 47. (emphasis mine)

Here we have an example of the Mormons in this forum giving us “milk” instead of “meat”. The Mormons call that wisdom. The rest of us call it “lying for the Lord”.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[zag4Christ]

I lived my entire recalled childhood behind the “Zion Curtain”. My family (single mother, 3 children) lived in Bountiful, Utah. We were members of St. Olaf’s Parish. I attended the school, along with my middle sister. The Daughters of Charity were the teachers. We had one lay teacher in the school. I served Mass weekdays and Sunday at the parish, and Saturdays at the convent. Thank God! Most of my friends were mormon. I learned over time what discrimination was. My mother was always suspect because she was not married but raising 3 kids. She was constantly fending off sexual advances by our mormon neighbors. At that time there was a girls high school named St. Mary’s of the Wasatch and a boys school call Judge Memorial in Salt Lake City. Both of my sisters attended the girls school, as did my mother and her sister years earlier. The early history of Utah has a lot of Catholicity in it. Anyways, me being the only boy, my mother gave me the option of attending public school when I graduated from elementary school. This was in the 1960’s. I unwisely went for being with my friends. I attended a public junior high and high school. The education I had received in the parochial school had me so far ahead of my peers, I choose to cruise. But to make a long story short, myself and a few of my parochial school classmates who went to the local public schools were considered oddities. To make a very long story short, many mormons are good people. I consider them members of a very successful cult. From a Catholic perspective, they have been led astray. On the surface, they appear to be happy and pursue a Godly life. But beneath all the smiles is a constant pressure to be materially successful because their theology, if you will, says that where you will end up in eternity is totally dependent on how materially successful you were in your earthly life. As a result, Utah leads the nation in ponzi schemes. One of my high school classmates was killed by a letter bomb because he was buying counterfeit historical documents which showed the mormon church to be untrue. The perpetrator of the scam got nervous,and decided to kill those who he had dealings with. My classmate was doing this at the direction of the hierarchy of the church, who did not want any negative publicity to detract from the church’s image.
I personally think that the mormon church is a prime example of how many good people can be led astray.
Peace and God Bless, and may Jesus Christ be at the center of your life.

 

[NewSeeker]

My ‘official’ answer is that we do not teach anything more than that we will live forever still as the family units we are a part of in this life. Further official doctrine has not been provided: some members interpret it as you have, others do not.

I was raised LDS in Salt Lake City and left the church when I was 43. I received my patriarchal blessing when I was 14 years old. After stating that I was from the Tribe of Ephraim, my blessing states that if I remain faithful I would “be tutored by the Lord himself in the creation of worlds.”

Clearly, it’s official doctrine (or was at the time) that I will, at the very least, be making planets in the next life (or would be making them, if not for the fact that I’m now a Catholic). In your view, is this still official doctrine or was my stake patriarch just blowing wind, not really under the guidance of the Holy Ghost like he was supposed to be?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Zag4Christ,

First of all, welcome to CAF… I think you will find this to be an excellent source for dialogue and increasing your knowledge and appreciation for our Catholic Faith.

Thank you so much for sharing your story on growing up in Bountiful - how is the rest of your family doing?

God bless

I lived my entire recalled childhood behind the “Zion Curtain”. My family (single mother, 3 children) lived in Bountiful, Utah. We were members of St. Olaf’s Parish. I attended the school, along with my middle sister. The Daughters of Charity were the teachers. We had one lay teacher in the school. I served Mass weekdays and Sunday at the parish, and Saturdays at the convent. Thank God! Most of my friends were mormon. I learned over time what discrimination was. My mother was always suspect because she was not married but raising 3 kids. She was constantly fending off sexual advances by our mormon neighbors. At that time there was a girls high school named St. Mary’s of the Wasatch and a boys school call Judge Memorial in Salt Lake City. Both of my sisters attended the girls school, as did my mother and her sister years earlier. The early history of Utah has a lot of Catholicity in it. Anyways, me being the only boy, my mother gave me the option of attending public school when I graduated from elementary school. This was in the 1960’s. I unwisely went for being with my friends. I attended a public junior high and high school. The education I had received in the parochial school had me so far ahead of my peers, I choose to cruise. But to make a long story short, myself and a few of my parochial school classmates who went to the local public schools were considered oddities. To make a very long story short, many mormons are good people. I consider them members of a very successful cult. From a Catholic perspective, they have been led astray. On the surface, they appear to be happy and pursue a Godly life. But beneath all the smiles is a constant pressure to be materially successful because their theology, if you will, says that where you will end up in eternity is totally dependent on how materially successful you were in your earthly life. As a result, Utah leads the nation in ponzi schemes. One of my high school classmates was killed by a letter bomb because he was buying counterfeit historical documents which showed the mormon church to be untrue. The perpetrator of the scam got nervous,and decided to kill those who he had dealings with. My classmate was doing this at the direction of the hierarchy of the church, who did not want any negative publicity to detract from the church’s image.
I personally think that the mormon church is a prime example of how many good people can be led astray.
Peace and God Bless, and may Jesus Christ be at the center of your life.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, NewSeeker,

Welcome Home!

I really know very little about the LDS organization - and, all that I have seen has put it in direct conflict with the teachings of Christ. Libraries probably should re-classify “The Book of Mormon” as ‘Fiction’ and let it go as that. My concern is that those Mormons who have responded really do not see the Bible and the BOM to be in conflict with one another. Christ has given us all we need for our salvation - and did this by founding His Church on Peter, and promised that it would triumph as the Bride of Christ on the Last Day.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want to make a planet…God has done a wonderful job of Creation. I wonder if there is a lack of appeal for being in constant adoration of the Living God?

Your real blessings began when you embraced the Church founded by Christ and have had access to His Grace through the Sacraments.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

God bless

I was raised LDS in Salt Lake City and left the church when I was 43. I received my patriarchal blessing when I was 14 years old. After stating that I was from the Tribe of Ephraim, my blessing states that if I remain faithful I would “be tutored by the Lord himself in the creation of worlds.”

Clearly, it’s official doctrine (or was at the time) that I will, at the very least, be making planets in the next life (or would be making them, if not for the fact that I’m now a Catholic). In your view, is this still official doctrine or was my stake patriarch just blowing wind, not really under the guidance of the Holy Ghost like he was supposed to be?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PaulDupre,

Welcome Home!

Thank you for sharing this material. I honestly thought Naf623 was missing some important elements - but, I had nothing specific to base this on.

It would seem that if God has told us to be truthful - lying should stand out in everyone’s mind as the beginnings of a major conflict. If lying is considered an evil by God - it would seem that some LDS members would question the wisdom of trying to bring about ‘good’ through an evil. While “…all things do work together unto good for those who love God…” Rom 8:28 we are not to engage in evil and foolish talking (Eph 5:3-5)

This concerns me a lot more than the fanciful imagination of going out to build a planet. The idea of ‘planet building’ does not really seem that different from getting ‘harp lessons’ - just another person’s imagination at work… Both are just imaginative examples that totally miss the concept of the Beatific Vision.

God bless

Really?? You don’t teach anything else?? So you would disavow your church’s Gospel Principles manual which is used to teach new members the basic principles of the LDS “gospel”?

Here we have an example of the Mormons in this forum giving us “milk” instead of “meat”. The Mormons call that wisdom. The rest of us call it “lying for the Lord”.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[truthsave]

Really?? You don’t teach anything else?? So you would disavow your church’s Gospel Principles manual which is used to teach new members the basic principles of the LDS “gospel”?

Here we have an example of the Mormons in this forum giving us “milk” instead of “meat”. The Mormons call that wisdom. The rest of us call it “lying for the Lord”.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

I really don’t understand why you Naf623 have had to lie to all of us. I accepted your answer as good, and now after this I wanted to look for myself and searched in one of my wife manuals. This is a unrespectful thing to do since either you don’t know your doctrine and you state things as true when they are not or you have a completely wrong idea what is mormon doctrine about either way you cannot defend what you don’t know, or maybe you know and you consciously want to mislead people and lie.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Truthsave,

I, too, am very disappointed about Naf623’s posts in light of what Mormon’s apparently are teacing. The idea that lying is the way to spread the message of Jesus Christ just has to strike a person as totally wrong. Now, lying to spread the imaginative writings of Joseph Smith and those who have followed after him - that probably is what is done.

Jesus Christ Who Is Truth - can not tolerate a lie. There really should be no doubt about this. Those who claim that they are speading the Word of God through lies are the most deceived of any group. That is not only very sad… but, probably delusional thinking. What happens when the person lied to finally finds out the truth?

God bless

Tom

I really don’t understand why you Naf623 have had to lie to all of us. I accepted your answer as good, and now after this I wanted to look for myself and searched in one of my wife manuals. This is a unrespectful thing to do since either you don’t know your doctrine and you state things as true when they are not or you have a completely wrong idea what is mormon doctrine about either way you cannot defend what you don’t know, or maybe you know and you consciously want to mislead people and lie.

 

[CopticChristian]

I was raised LDS in Salt Lake City and left the church when I was 43. I received my patriarchal blessing when I was 14 years old. After stating that I was from the Tribe of Ephraim, my blessing states that if I remain faithful I would “be tutored by the Lord himself in the creation of worlds.”

Clearly, it’s official doctrine (or was at the time) that I will, at the very least, be making planets in the next life (or would be making them, if not for the fact that I’m now a Catholic). In your view, is this still official doctrine or was my stake patriarch just blowing wind, not really under the guidance of the Holy Ghost like he was supposed to be?

Still we wait for an answer.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hi, Truthsave,

I, too, am very disappointed about Naf623’s posts in light of what Mormon’s apparently are teacing. The idea that lying is the way to spread the message of Jesus Christ just has to strike a person as totally wrong. Now, lying to spread the imaginative writings of Joseph Smith and those who have followed after him - that probably is what is done.

That is my biggest problem with mormonism. Aside from the wacky theology and the cult-like behaviour, we have the basic tendency of mormonism to lie about their true beliefs. People are generally free to believe what they please in this country and it is surely borne out by our history of really wierd “religions” that have come and gone. But mormonism is really one of the home-grown cults that has really taken hold, by virtue of it’s persistance and organization. Part of this success is due to their practices of deception and deliberate dissimulation. It is that basic dishonesty that gets my nanny goat, full stop. Pull 'em in, get 'em hooked and then, when they are committed, hit 'em with the wierdness. So, what do you say mormons? Pretty close to the mark? And this from the “church” that says that we needed to be “restored.”

 

[h2001st]

 

[Telstar]

I did a search on LDS.com and found the Gospel Principles Manual on there. I found that same description along with a whole list of chapters about various aspects of LDS beliefs, as well as instructions on how to ‘teach’ them as lessons. I would assume anything on that main website is current and up to date, since they’re so picky about it. There was a lot more info about “exaltation” and many other things that are frequently denied by LDS posters, here. I’m sure Paul is correct in his assessment that it’s typical of their practice of “milk before meat” when speaking with “outsiders”. It’s all about plausible deniability. Then they wonder why some of us don’t want to believe them when they give any answer, because we’ve dealt with this kind of deception from them in the past. They just talk in circles using their typical “catch phrases” and Bible quotes that are supposed to make them sound more esoteric and spiritual, hoping to confuse anyone that’s looking for a straight answer. (Not to mention their feigned sweet talking that they use to make themselves seem more sincere.) I don’t think they realize how foolish it really makes them look, especially to those of us that know a little more than they think we know.

 

[manualman]

This is in no way objective, since this list of doctrines someone must believe to be considered Christian is subjective in itself.
From my viewpoint I could equally make the same statement about Catholicism as you deny doctrines that I consider central to Christianity. I could equally not consider this objective, because it relies on my own beliefs.

I don’t think you understood my post correctly. First off, revelation IS objective. Either God has revealed something as truth or he hasn’t. Christianity has always considered the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creeds a short and objective summary of the core truths of revelation.

Yes, you are free to denounce catholicism as an apostate group that abandoned the real truth of revelation early on after Christ and claim that Mormonism alone holds the real truth of christian teaching. But by that principle, I can invent a new and novel religious system myself and proclaim that catholics, protestants AND Mormons are all apostates and that only I have the revealed truth of God. At some point, you have to examine factual credibility.

Second of all, you seem to have missed the main point of my post that while the doctrines of Mormonism are non-christian, this doesn’t necessarily make Mormons themselves non-christians. Jesus is more interested in having us know him than passing doctrinal tests. You really should read the link I provided since that author is far more eloquent than I ever will be.

 

[SteveVH]

Changes in mormon “doctrine” have almost always been done under compulsion. Prime examples being the practice of polygamy and the third-class status of blacks in the “church” regarding the “priesthood”. mormons quickly changed the doctrine of plural marriage, given by Almighty God Himself, necessary for “exaltation” because admission to the Union was at stake. Statehood was vastly more important than the command of Almighty God, obviously.
The admission of blacks to the “priesthood” was certainly driven by the fact that mormon recruiting in third-world countries was suffering and civil rights activists in this country were looking very unfavorably on the mormon “church.” So…Presto! a new revelation. They try to cop out by saying that the second-class of blacks was only “temporary”, but read Brigham Young’s pronouncement on the condition of blacks, as he as “prophet” saw it. Smoke and mirrors, folks. mormon “doctrine” is as changable as the wind.

Yes, I am quite aware of all you have stated. My point is that there we are under no moral obligation to obey laws that directly contradict the laws of God. If polygamy was, indeed, a law given by God to Joseph Smith, then we must assume that if he did away with it for the purpose of compliance with human laws then He has made Himself subject to human laws. To believe that God gave a “new revelation” for this reason is ludicrous.