Views on Mormonism?

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Likewise, Tony, it is pretty callous to keep pushing our beliefs on us based on contrary and erroneous thinking.

I have the CCC right here next to me, and if you can’t even acknowledge what sanctifying/divine grace is…you are still at step one, so I am waiting for you to acknowledge what grace really is…
 
To want to be a god is totally opposite and condemned by the Church. In its beginning the number one absolute belief is that in the Creed…We believe in One God
 
Hi, Tony888,

I guess one of the problems we non-Mormons have is that not only does Mormon doctrine radically change - but, apparently there are contradictory items left over in various places. Really, coming up with just a coherent picture - a comprehensive one would be too much to ask for - appears to be more and more difficult.

A quote from a Mormon document clearly identifyng that chosing an abortion was allowable especially in the case of rape, incest or the deformity of the baby was presented to us. No one said, ‘Hey, this is a fraud! This came from a bogus web-site and it is a total distortion of Mormon teaching!’ Nothing like that happened. So, really, Tony888, just what are we to think. So we have two doctrinal items that appear to be in conflict. But, even the quote you provide to us seems just a wee-bit deficient when identifying consequences… “… may lose their membeship…”! Wow, sounds like something from the secretary of the local country club talking about delinquent golf fees! :eek:

I do not think KathleenGee was speaking about herself or having anything reflect on her. Your comments were quite unjustified.

God bless
Tony888 said:
bz5
you missed this from the other page. Where do you see the taking of human life as acceptable to the church, or a matter of personal choice? It’s very **calous **and **superficial **of you to compare the words of wisdom with this grave sin.

LDS.org on Abortion:
Human life is a sacred gift from God. Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God. Church members who submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions may lose their membership in the Church.

Kathleen,
It’s not always about you.
If you want to assume the LDS church is not guided by God, and is man made. How could you imagine it is a response to the RCC? Considering the time and location, it was a divergence from Protestant churches and their influence. I couldn’t find stats but I believe early converts were also from Protestant backgrounds
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tqualey said:
Hi, Tony888,
I guess one of the problems we non-Mormons have is that not only does Mormon doctrine radically change - but, apparently there are contradictory items left over in various places. Really, coming up with just a coherent picture - a comprehensive one would be too much to ask for - appears to be more and more difficult.
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This whole topic reminds me of the famous Abbott and Costello “Who’s on First” routine. No mormon can put their finger on what really constitutes mormon “doctrine.” One points to this, another points to that, and nobody can agree upon who really speaks for whom. LDS.org says abortion is wrong, another mormon publication says that abortion is OK as long as “you pray about it.” Individual mormons cannot agree upon who or what defines what mormons are supposed to believe. I think, at the end of the day, they just wing it. If some things are doubtful, then ALL is doubtful. The whole mormon construct is a ship with a busted rudder, and mormons, the water is coming in faster than the pumps can handle. And the Barque of Peter sails on.
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I’ve battled over with LDS on the issue of abortion and the intent that the LDS have in regards to what is is stated in the CHI. The bottom-line is that it’s rare that a bishop would guide a LDS couple to get an abortion and would rather be insistent that a single pregnant LDS lady look at the option of an adoption through their LDS services. We as Catholics can improve in regards to making adoption as a better alternative IMO. My experience that less than 5% of faithful LDS members have abortions. I don’t believe Catholics can brag better results IMO.

That said, I don’t believe the wording in the CHI shows a pro-life stance in my Catholic mind.
 
hosemonkey said:
This whole topic reminds me of the famous Abbott and Costello “Who’s on First” routine.This famous exchange reminds me of the various answers that mormon apologists have given us regarding mormon “theology and doctrine.” Following their explanations is very much like trying to follow the lineup of this baseball team.

Abbott: Well Costello, I’m going to New York with you. You know Bucky Harris, the Yankee’s manager, gave me a job as coach for as long as you’re on the team.
Costello: Look Abbott, if you’re the coach, you must know all the players.
Abbott: I certainly do.
Costello: Well you know I’ve never met the guys. So you’ll have to tell me their names, and then I’ll know who’s playing on the team.
Abbott: Oh, I’ll tell you their names, but you know it seems to me they give these ball players now-a-days very peculiar names.
Costello: You mean funny names?
Abbott: Strange names, pet names…like Dizzy Dean…
Costello: His brother Daffy.
Abbott: Daffy Dean…
Costello: And their French cousin.
Abbott: French?
Costello: Goofè.
Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let’s see, we have on the bags, Who’s on first, What’s on second, I Don’t Know is on third…
Costello: That’s what I want to find out.
Abbott: I say Who’s on first, What’s on second, I Don’t Know’s on third.
Costello: Are you the manager?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: You gonna be the coach too?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: And you don’t know the fellows’ names?
Abbott: Well I should.
Costello: Well then who’s on first?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: I mean the fellow’s name.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy on first.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The first baseman.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy playing…
Abbott: Who is on first!
Costello: I’m asking YOU who’s on first.
Abbott: That’s the man’s name.
Costello: That’s who’s name?
Abbott: Yes.
Costello: Well go ahead and tell me.
Abbott: That’s it.
Costello: That’s who?
Abbott: Yes.
PAUSE
Costello: Look, you gotta first baseman?
Abbott: Certainly.
Costello: Who’s playing first?
Abbott: That’s right.
Costello: When you pay off the first baseman every month, who gets the money?
Abbott: Every dollar of it.
Costello: All I’m trying to find out is the fellow’s name on first base.
Abbott: Who.
Costello: The guy that gets…
Abbott: That’s it.
Costello: Who gets the money…
Abbott: He does, every dollar. Sometimes his wife comes down and collects it.
Costello: Whose wife?
Abbott: Yes.
(Continued)
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Tony, do you think it’s worse to think abortion is horrible and yet allow it, or to simply believe the fetus is a clump of cells with only potential life, leaving it totally up to the woman to ‘choose’? I don’t think you’re helping your case to stress the former position.

As for my being callous, what would I be if I let you, my brother in Christ - apparently a former Catholic who hasn’t grown up with the LDS ‘glasses’ on and who obviously still feels drawn for whatever reason to this site - stay in error without pointing out obvious inconsistencies?

The word of wisdom has hardened over the years (Joseph Smith made it a suggestion, didn’t he?) while the rules against abortion have slackened. How could this truly be of God and not man?!
 
PAUSE
Costello: All I’m trying to find out is what’s the guy’s name on first base.
Abbott: No. What is on second base.
Costello: I’m not asking you who’s on second.
Abbott: Who’s on first.
Costello: One base at a time!
Abbott: Well, don’t change the players around.
Costello: I’m not changing nobody!
Abbott: Take it easy, buddy.
Costello: I’m only asking you, who’s the guy on first base?
Abbott: That’s right.
Costello: Ok.
Abbott: All right.
PAUSE
Costello: What’s the guy’s name on first base?
Abbott: No. What is on second.
Costello: I’m not asking you who’s on second.
Abbott: Who’s on first.
Costello: I don’t know.
Abbott: He’s on third, we’re not talking about him.
Costello: Now how did I get on third base?
Abbott: Why you mentioned his name.
Costello: If I mentioned the third baseman’s name, who did I say is playing third?
Abbott: No. Who’s playing first.
Costello: What’s on first?
Abbott: What’s on second.
Costello: I don’t know.
Abbott: He’s on third.
Costello: There I go, back on third again!
PAUSE
Costello: Would you just stay on third base and don’t go off it.
Abbott: All right, what do you want to know?
Costello: Now who’s playing third base?
Abbott: Why do you insist on putting Who on third base?
Costello: What am I putting on third.
Abbott: No. What is on second.
Costello: You don’t want who on second?
Abbott: Who is on first.
Costello: I don’t know.
Abbott & Costello Together:Third base!
 
PAUSE
Costello: Look, you gotta outfield?
Abbott: Sure.
Costello: The left fielder’s name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: I just thought I’d ask you.
Abbott: Well, I just thought I’d tell ya.
Costello: Then tell me who’s playing left field.
Abbott: Who’s playing first.
Costello: I’m not… stay out of the infield! I want to know what’s the guy’s name in left field?
Abbott: No, What is on second.
Costello: I’m not asking you who’s on second.
Abbott: Who’s on first!
Costello: I don’t know.
Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!
PAUSE
Costello: The left fielder’s name?
Abbott: Why.
Costello: Because!
Abbott: Oh, he’s centerfield.
 
PAUSE
Costello: Look, You gotta pitcher on this team?
Abbott: Sure.
Costello: The pitcher’s name?
Abbott: Tomorrow.
Costello: You don’t want to tell me today?
Abbott: I’m telling you now.
Costello: Then go ahead.
Abbott: Tomorrow!
Costello: What time?
Abbott: What time what?
Costello: What time tomorrow are you gonna tell me who’s pitching?
Abbott: Now listen. Who is not pitching.
Costello: I’ll break your arm, you say who’s on first! I want to know what’s the pitcher’s name?
Abbott: What’s on second.
Costello: I don’t know.
Abbott & Costello Together: Third base!
PAUSE
Costello: Gotta a catcher?
Abbott: Certainly.
Costello: The catcher’s name?
Abbott: Today.
Costello: Today, and tomorrow’s pitching.
Abbott: Now you’ve got it.
Costello: All we got is a couple of days on the team.
PAUSE
Costello: You know I’m a catcher too.
Abbott: So they tell me.
Costello: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow’s pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I’m gonna throw the guy out at first base. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
Abbott: Now that’s the first thing you’ve said right.
Costello: I don’t even know what I’m talking about!
PAUSE
Abbott: That’s all you have to do.
Costello: Is to throw the ball to first base.
Abbott: Yes!
Costello: Now who’s got it?
Abbott: Naturally.
PAUSE
Costello: Look, if I throw the ball to first base, somebody’s gotta get it. Now who has it?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Who?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Naturally?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: So I pick up the ball and I throw it to Naturally.
Abbott: No you don’t, you throw the ball to Who.
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: That’s different.
Costello: That’s what I said.
Abbott: You’re not saying it…
Costello: I throw the ball to Naturally.
Abbott: You throw it to Who.
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: That’s it.
Costello: That’s what I said!
Abbott: You ask me.
Costello: I throw the ball to who?
Abbott: Naturally.
Costello: Now you ask me.
Abbott: You throw the ball to Who?
Costello: Naturally.
Abbott: That’s it.
Costello: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don’t Know. I Don’t Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don’t know! He’s on third and I don’t give a darn!
Abbott: What?
Costello: I said I don’t give a darn!
Abbott: Oh, that’s our shortstop.

If you can follow this, you are probably ready to do apologetics for the mormon "church.😛
 
blueadept said:
I’ve battled over with LDS on the issue of abortion and the intent that the LDS have in regards to what is is stated in the CHI. The bottom-line is that it’s rare that a bishop would guide a LDS couple to get an abortion and would rather be insistent that a single pregnant LDS lady look at the option of an adoption through their LDS services. We as Catholics can improve in regards to making adoption as a better alternative IMO. My experience that less than 5% of faithful LDS members have abortions. I don’t believe Catholics can brag better results IMO.

That said, I don’t believe the wording in the CHI shows a pro-life stance in my Catholic mind.
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You’re right that it is to the credit of a family-focused culture that the abortion rate is low. I often wonder how many ‘people in the pew’ really know or care what their church’s official teachings are (there are plenty of Catholics in that category, too) and stay with the church out of habit or social connection. I’m very sure people convert for social/psychological reasons rather than theological stories, New seeker’s stories being amusing examples.
 
I can see why Hosemonkey posted as he did…

And likewise, those fallen away Catholics atleast support pro choice…their numbers?..could be higher than pro choice Mormons…

The Great Apostasy is right now…man making himself god,…and in the case of abortion, at the expense of innocent human life.
 
Regarding Abortion

Matthew 7:18-20*

“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.* Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.* Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.”*

For the LDS you can call the fruit:
  • Focus on abstinence before marriage
  • Focus on adoption when abstinence doesn’t work
  • Focus on valuing life and the family
  • Teaching any participation in elective abortion is a grave sin
I’m happy with those fruits 👍
We should not get into a p***ing contest on whether the RCC takes a strong stance all around. That is a pointless exercise.
 
Really? A three-part thread comparing LDS to a side-show? How long did that take you? Why so much effort to degrade others? Aren’t there more creative ways to attract people to Catholicism besides comparing them to goofy buffoons? Aside from respecing the forum rules of basic politeness, is there really anything to be gained by alienating the very population you’re [theoretically] trying to convert? Or is the goal to build fellowship by bullying the weirdo-religions that visit the Non-Catholic Religion forum?
 
LatterDayLady…

People get goofy repeating the same things over and over to Mormons who frequent here.

It comes to the point that they stay, using CAF in these endless rounds as a means for passive/aggressive prosletyizing. I am not the first one to get this impression.

Likewise, I have been meaning to ask, do the LDS have a forum for Catholics to discuss openly with Mormons? I heard from a Catholic man about how limited he was, and the disrespect he was shone…about changing doctrines, their response was we don’t look at old stuff…something of that way of thinking.

So – do Mormon forums allow Catholics the same freedom CAF offers the Mormons?
 
KathleenGee said:
LatterDayLady…

People get goofy repeating the same things over and over to Mormons who frequent here.

It comes to the point that they stay, using CAF in these endless rounds as a means for passive/aggressive prosletyizing. I am not the first one to get this impression.

Likewise, I have been meaning to ask, do the LDS have a forum for Catholics to discuss openly with Mormons? I heard from a Catholic man about how limited he was, and the disrespect he was shone…about changing doctrines, their response was we don’t look at old stuff…something of that way of thinking.

So – do Mormon forums allow Catholics the same freedom CAF offers the Mormons?
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Yeah, they’ve got meds to combat the circular logic that goes on here! Goofy is a natural outcome fore sure.

I know of an LDS-ish forum that gets a lot less traffic and is pretty notorious for a few loud-mouthed posters shooting any disenters down. Embarassing and equally annoying. I think it’s just the nature of the beast – anonymous forums are not ideal places for interfaith discussions. As a former Catholic, and as someone who has many Catholic family members, I like visiting this site. I still go to Mass occasionally. I Ti-Vo a few EWTN shows. If I weren’t LDS, I’d still be Catholic. Maybe I’m just sensitive because I feel like my husband is fighting with my parents at the Thanksgiving table. Can’t we all just stop and enjoy the green bean casserole? 🙂
 
Yes, LatterDayLady…I used to post more info, but when it was invalidated by being ignored…ancient writings supporting our faith and liturgy, and others of going around and around…I decided it was a waste of time.

Some think to continue to ‘feed’ the lurkers.

I am working with a wonderful Mormon woman who grew up in a very wholesome environment, and rejects prejudice of all sorts. I have liked hearing her talk of the Catholic Church, and she has gone to Mass a number of times.

It is the redundancy…and a big issue for me, misinterpretation of our beliefs, there is only One God and what is sanctifying grace. That is wrong

Thanks for insight on other Mormon forums that exist. I had a friend here who went to one, and the response,etc. was not cool.

When Mormonism stops calling Christianity having corrupt doctrines, it will take a big edge off. Just look at the history of Catholicism, in spite of some bad priests and popes. We are a culture of people. You can’t separate the doctrines of our faith from our history and culture. It is great and doesn’t deserve the label of ‘corrupt’…as that is wrong and irrelevant.

BTW, have you seen the new series on EWTN…‘Catholicism’…check the program guide online. They are having repeats of the series at different times.

People say Mormonism is constantly changing…in another sense the Catholic Church is, too…

According to the presentation last night…first, Christ is the mind of God…through which the universe was made. And after the death and resurrection of Our Lord, through Him all things are made new…we can look at all that is good and pure and sincere…and see a reflection of those things…Aristotle, art and beauty, accomplishments of the non-Christian world…as Christ nevertheless at work among them.

The Church draws all that reflects Christ. Subsequently, we draw on Aristotle as was the case regarding St. Thomas Aquinas, the former pagan temple now converted to St. Mary of Martyrs in Rome…first time I saw it last night…and that the beginning Church was as a seed that grew…afterall, Jesus said He is the vine and we are the branches…Jesus the Tree of Life first referred to in Genesis… or 'let us…make man in our image…some argue this is in reference to the Holy Trinity…

The Church draws on the keys of Peter…keys that fit only one place…heaven…and Peter, the primacy of the Church, is given power to interpret life…the papacy on faith and morals.

Very interesting…

God bless!
 
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