Views re: a Catholic Conscientious Objection to Military Service

[bilop]

There is an appropriate way for CO’s to serve.

They should volunteer as combat medics.

They need not shed blood, but face the same dangers as other combat soldiers.

There was a CO medic in the 77th Inf. Div. on Okinawa in WW2, Desmond Doss, who received the Medal of Honor.

medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss.htm

God Bless

 

[TMC]

I asked this question on “Ask Apologist” but recieved no reply.

What is the Church’s Stance on an individual Catholic applying for conscientious objector status?
I realize that the Church does not Prohibit participation in the military or in “Just Wars”, but what about an individual Catholic who feels strongly that they, personally could not, in good conscience, participate in combat?
Would the Church support the individual in such a circumstance?

Peace
James

I’m confused. Why would you need conscientious objector status when the military is all-volunteer?

Ruthie

There are two main reasons people apply for CO status today. The first is to avoid registering for the draft. The second is people already in the service that object to serving in combat. There are two kinds of CO - one is the kind that will serve but only in a humanitarian role, or at least a non-combat role, like medics, etc. The other objects to very idea of military service and won’t serve at all. It is very hard for Catholics to declare themselves CO because the Church does not condemn warfare in all instances, only unjustified wars. In the US you can’t declare you are CO for this war, but maybe not a better war, you have to either be CO or not, so Catholics rarely qualify.

 

[Ruthie]

I, too, am old enough to remember the Vietnam days.

I believe that, in these days of an all-volunteer military, that if you are not prepared to go to war, you shouldn’t join. To volunteer in order to get the good benefits offered, and hope you don’t have to go to war is a gamble, and if you “lose,” you should serve. As a previous poster said, there are non-combat roles, and for the especially brave, the medical corps. (Ask any war veteran how they feel about their medics!)

If we go back to the draft, which I pray we won’t, then I agree with the poster who said that merely citing your Catholicism won’t work. You would have to find good proof of your anti-war stance, perhaps by showing evidence of leading protests and/or published writings against *all *war, etc. You might be able to do this with the support of the Church as an evidence gatherer. It will still be a hard battle.

You might consider proposing to your Diocese, and helping it set up a program for *documenting *Catholic pacifists…

God bless you,

Ruthie

 

[SimonArizona]

I asked this question on “Ask Apologist” but recieved no reply.

What is the Church’s Stance on an individual Catholic applying for conscientious objector status?
I realize that the Church does not Prohibit participation in the military or in “Just Wars”, but what about an individual Catholic who feels strongly that they, personally could not, in good conscience, participate in combat?
Would the Church support the individual in such a circumstance?

Peace
James

I don’t know about other countries but its not ok if you live in the USA. You can serve in non-combat related duties if you feel like you wont pull the trigger and thereby put your fellow soldiers in danger, but if you are enjoying liberty that is upheld by the blood of patriots and this nation calls on you and you don’t honor Her, that is egregious and shameful.
**
“The land of the free will cease to be when it is no longer the home of the brave.”** -Rick Gaber

"No man is worth his salt who is not ready at all times to risk his well-being, to risk his body, to risk his life, in a great cause."-Theodore Roosevelt

**“We cannot ignore in the great Christian tradition and in a world marked by sin, any evil agression that threatens to destroy not only many values, many people, but the image of humanity itself. In this case defending oneself and others is a duty.”-**Ratzinger

notice Ratzinger didn’t say its ok, he said its your duty.

 

[JimG]

It’s also possible that a person may be called both to the priesthood and the military. A Catholic chaplain will never be called on to kill, but he may be assigned to a combat zone.

The USAF is desperate for priests! See this article from the Air Force times. If there are not enough U.S. priests available, they are seeking foreign priests.

One of the priests of our diocese recently entered the Army as a military chaplain. Father is now a Captain in Iraq. His diocese is the military archdiocese of the U.S.

 

[RWMorris]

I’m afraid I don’t quite understand your question about a CO position being a mortal sin. Could you elaborate?

My question had a qualifier, " … the CO who fails in his life’s calling, was his claim as a CO a mortal sin?" The question is about his motives of being a CO, not being a CO. I don’t think it is a sin to be a CO. But is a sin to claim to be one and then fail to “walk the talk”?

… but it should also be remembered that one of the principles you defend is, in fact, the right of Conscientious Objection.

Absolutely, I agree, that is why I am against any sort of imprisonment or worse. As long as a CO is willing to serve his country in a non-combatant role, his morals should be respected. Even if he is unwilling to serve, the worst that should happen to him is a dishonorable discharge, and that is only because his actions are dishonorable.

… whether the Church would support an individual catholic’s decision to seek CO status.

Yes, the Church should support COs who refused to serve. But that support should not be blanket approval of the CO actions. The Church should offer prayer, counseling, stern condemnation of any antiwar rhetoric from the CO, and insistence that the CO should dedicate his life to peacefully and lovingly living the life of a pacifist. Anything less is just more dishonor.

 

[armywife]

It’s also possible that a person may be called both to the priesthood and the military. A Catholic chaplain will never be called on to kill, but he may be assigned to a combat zone.

The USAF is desperate for priests! See this article from the Air Force times. If there are not enough U.S. priests available, they are seeking foreign priests.

One of the priests of our diocese recently entered the Army as a military chaplain. Father is now a Captain in Iraq. His diocese is the military archdiocese of the U.S.

The entire military is desperate for priests. That being said, you’re right, a catholic chaplain or any chaplain won’t be asked to fight, but I suspect that if push comes to shove the catholic chaplain would have the least objection in picking up a weapon. Although in war today, it’s not very likely that he would ever have to.

To the other comment, when we were stationed in Germany there were several Polish priests that joined the Army. They were great, so traditional and orthodox. Although they did have trouble working with the protestant chaplains at times since the chain of command usually has a protestant running the chapel,

 

[JRKH]

My question had a qualifier, " … the CO who fails in his life’s calling, was his claim as a CO a mortal sin?" The question is about his motives of being a CO, not being a CO. I don’t think it is a sin to be a CO. But is a sin to claim to be one and then fail to “walk the talk”?

Thanks. You’re absolutely right. Yes I believe that anyone who claims CO status without a proper foundation is indeed committing a mortal sin.

Absolutely, I agree, that is why I am against any sort of imprisonment or worse. As long as a CO is willing to serve his country in a non-combatant role, his morals should be respected. Even if he is unwilling to serve, the worst that should happen to him is a dishonorable discharge, and that is only because his actions are dishonorable.

I agree with this up to the point of the “dishonorable actions” aspect. Assuming that the person is entirely sincere in their convictions I would not classify their actions as dis-honorable. In such cases I would prefer to see a general or OTH discharge utilized, but I leave that to the military.

Yes, the Church should support COs who refused to serve. But that support should not be blanket approval of the CO actions. The Church should offer prayer, counseling, stern condemnation of any antiwar rhetoric from the CO, and insistence that the CO should dedicate his life to peacefully and lovingly living the life of a pacifist. Anything less is just more dishonor.

Well we will leave these things to those in charge of such things.

Peace
James

 

[Wirraway]

There is an appropriate way for CO’s to serve.

They should volunteer as combat medics.

They need not shed blood, but face the same dangers as other combat soldiers.

There was a CO medic in the 77th Inf. Div. on Okinawa in WW2, Desmond Doss, who received the Medal of Honor.

medalofhonor.com/DesmondDoss.htm

God Bless

there was another in Vietnam, too.

I considered suggesting that a CO claimant already in the service be retrained in one of the medical ratings, but after giving it a lot of thought, I don’t think I’d want him anywhere near men serving honorably in harm’s way. he can do his time honorably in the brig. I’m saying this as a retired officer.

 

[RobHom]

entitlement to veterans benefits without the risk comes to mind.

I am not certain, but if one refuses to enter the military in time of war when there is a draft in place, and elects to perform alternate service, that person is not “military”, but civilian, and thus is not entitled to VA Benefits.

On the other hand…if one accepts a draft notice and states their status as a conscientious objector but still enters the service as a non-combatant which really only means you won’t carry a weapon, you would then be eligible for VA Benefits.

Not sure how that would work now with a volunteer force. Maybe they would have a use for someone who desires CO status.

But, one should never, never ever think that CO status will keep them out of combat. Many, many CO’s who were drafted in the past found themselves being trained as “Combat Medics” who went into combat with infantry units. They were brave men who did their duty. I knew a couple of them…both of them learned how to handle a gun after a few weeks in the bush.

 

[Wirraway]

I am not certain, but if one refuses to enter the military in time of war when there is a draft in place, and elects to perform alternate service, that person is not “military”, but civilian, and thus is not entitled to VA Benefits.

On the other hand…if one accepts a draft notice and states their status as a conscientious objector but still enters the service as a non-combatant which really only means you won’t carry a weapon, you would then be eligible for VA Benefits.

Not sure how that would work now with a volunteer force. Maybe they would have a use for someone who desires CO status.

But, one should never, never ever think that CO status will keep them out of combat. Many, many CO’s who were drafted in the past found themselves being trained as “Combat Medics” who went into combat with infantry units. They were brave men who did their duty. I knew a couple of them…both of them learned how to handle a gun after a few weeks in the bush.

I have no objection to COs, only to dishonest ones. I’ve pointed out in a couple of threads that two CO medics were awarded the MoH. a serviceman who suddenly claims CO status on the eve of deployment to a combat zone should be jailed.

 

[RobHom]

I think that it would be extremely difficult, though not impossible for a Catholic to obtain CO status. The reason for this is because we as a religious people have always been ready and willing to fight for what we believe. Historically we have taken up arms without hesitation.

Something that needs to be remembered: CO status is not like a rock falling on one’s head. It doesn’t happen all of the sudden. Getting CO status after joining the military is very difficult, very difficult, and certainly offers no guarantee of a safe comfy warm clerks job stateside.

I do believe that most men who are CO’s are honest about it, and they do it up front…not after the fact.

 

[JRKH]

I think that it would be extremely difficult, though not impossible for a Catholic to obtain CO status. The reason for this is because we as a religious people have always been ready and willing to fight for what we believe. Historically we have taken up arms without hesitation.

Something that needs to be remembered: CO status is not like a rock falling on one’s head. It doesn’t happen all of the sudden. Getting CO status after joining the military is very difficult, very difficult, and certainly offers no guarantee of a safe comfy warm clerks job stateside.

I do believe that most men who are CO’s are honest about it, and they do it up front…not after the fact.

I agree that history and doctrinal teachings in the Church could make it difficult for a Catholic to obtain CO status. However, within the Church there are many callings and not all are formal callings such as priest or brother. So long as the Church supports such variety in calls to holiness, it should support an honest application for CO status.

As for CO Status hitting like a Rock, I beg to differ in at least one famous instance. Saul was on his way to arrest some Christians when God “Struck” him. May not have been a rock, but can’t deny it was sudden - It knocked him off his horse and blinded him of days. While I agree with your general statement that these convictions generally develop over time, we certainly cannot rule out the "Rock on the Head’ type of conversion either.

In the case of someone already in the military, if this person is willing to endure the “Brig” rather than kill this would be a strong indicator to me that they were sincere in their convistion. Of course as I said earlier, such cases have to be handled on the merits of each. The military needs to be careful and weigh the balance between opening a “Loophole” and wrongly jailing a sincere CO.

Anyway, it appears that the Church will support an individuals right to claim CO status, anyone so wishing would be well advised to contact their priest ASAP and discuss all the issues and ramifications.

Peace
James

 

[JimG]

Here’a s photo of Father Ned Blick, recently of the Wichita KS diocese, now of the Military Archdiocese. (He’s the one without the weapon!)

 

[SenorSalsa]

It’s also possible that a person may be called both to the priesthood and the military. A Catholic chaplain will never be called on to kill, but he may be assigned to a combat zone.

The USAF is desperate for priests! See this article from the Air Force times. If there are not enough U.S. priests available, they are seeking foreign priests.

One of the priests of our diocese recently entered the Army as a military chaplain. Father is now a Captain in Iraq. His diocese is the military archdiocese of the U.S.

as a soon-to-be seminarian, I have thought about being a chaplain before, but to be honest, I don’t feel suited for the military life. But one of the priests in charge of the program I am in is an Army Chaplain(I guess he must be reserves), and I know of a couple of the guys looking into the Archdiocese of the Military.

I was amazed at how few the priests are in the Armed Forces though. a 1-1 deployment rate sounds pretty rough. It has to