Vineyard Christian Fellowship-Christian or Cult?

[Arcadian]

Hello!! I wanna thank you for ur positive responses regarding my conversion decision i m so sorry that i cant get back,i am so busy and working hard…my apologies…

As i said i was affiliated with Calvary Chapel and my best friend is attending a Vineyard Church…

I wonder is Vineyard movement a Protestant denomination or a cult?

Tom

 

[Arcadian]

Thanks again…

 

[jmcrcia]

My wife had a friend who was involved with the Vineyard and had a very negative experience. Are they a “cult”? No. I keep a very strict definition of exactly what a cult is and if the group is missing too many of the criteria, then I don’t regard it as a cult. The term, in my opinion, is thrown around way too much. That being said, there are many things that the Vineyard does that is “cult-like”. My wife’s friend was castigated for leaving the Vineyard, she lost all of her friends in that group who would no longer associate with her (which is probably a good thing), and her time while in the group was expected to be as devoted to the group as possible (i.e. no free time allowed!). There were also members in positions of leadership who clearly had no business being there for a variety of reasons. In short… not a cult, but definitely a group to avoid. They tend to be anti-Catholic too.

 

[Arcadian]

Thanks,i just wonder what denominational body do the groups like Calvary Chapel,Vineyard Churches,Liberty Church (in FLA) belong to?

Are they Protestants or non-christian sects like Mormons,Quakers,Christian Science etc.?

(Please someone who knows about Catholic theology,preferably a priest could answer,i would appreciate and be glad)

Tom

 

[bpbasilphx]

At least one Vineyard congregation (including the pastor) converted en masse to Orthodoxy.

 

[Arcadian]

Thanx a lot but that wasnt my question…

 

[kage_ar]

Thanks,i just wonder what denominational body do the groups like Calvary Chapel,Vineyard Churches,Liberty Church (in FLA) belong to?

Are they Protestants or non-christian sects like Mormons,Quakers,Christian Science etc.?

(Please someone who knows about Catholic theology,preferably a priest could answer,i would appreciate and be glad)

Tom

Not a Priest

Christianity is generally held to be those who believe in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and life everlasting.

There are three groups who claim the name Christian -

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

There are many Protestant groups that do not believe they ARE Protestant.

The Calvary Chapel and Vineyard would call themselves “non-denominational”. From a Catholic perspective, they are Protestant.

LIberty Church I am not familiar with, and the web site won’t load on dial-up. You can look and see if they are Christian or not (they should have a list of what they believe).

libertychurch.tv/

ETA website FINALLY loaded, here are their beliefs - generic non-denom Protestant Christian:

libertychurch.tv/blueangel/about/beliefs.html

 

[Arcadian]

So if i try to convince him to convert with the help of Holy Spirit,does he have to be re-baptized ?..

 

[kage_ar]

So if i try to convince him to convert with the help of Holy Spirit,does he have to be re-baptized ?..

The Catholic Church recognizes as valid baptisms done in the Trinitarian formula - in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - in other Christian congregations.

If conversion happens, he would be asked to provide proof of Trinitarian baptism (the certificate is the most common proof, but, a pastor can accept other things). When I converted, I called my mom and she sent me a copy of my Independant Chuch of Christ Baptismal certificate, it was all good.

Should that not be possible or if there is a doubt, there would be a conditional baptism - but, let your friend and his Priest work through that when the time comes. It is nothing to delay conversion over.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

My only contact with the Vineyard has been at the abortion center. A couple of us used to say the rosary there at the same time they were doing sidewalk counseling. When their leaders got married, they invited us to their wedding.

They seemed to form a close, but not closed community. After the service they had a pot luck reception to which we were welcomed. Many of them, including their pastor, seemed to have a Baptist background. The bride delivered the homily, which I think was unusual even for them. It was one of the best talks on the meaning of marriage I have heard.

I was particularly impressed by the pastor’s charge to all attending that by witnessing the couple’s promises we had committed ourselves to supporting them in fulfilling those promises and holding them accountable for them.

 

[Cat]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before converting to Catholicism.

Vineyard is not a cult. It started out as a para-church fellowship and gradually grew into a church. It is non-denominational, but the theology is typical of all the evangelical denominations.

I have personal reasons to intensely dislike Vineyard. This organization split TWO evangelical churches that I was part of. A lot of my friends left the “traditional” church for the cool, new Vineyard Fellowship in town. Blech.

Unfortunately, I believe that a lot of the non-denominational sects do this–they don’t make converts, they merely steal the sheep of other churches, including CATHOLIC Churches.

Anytime you have a question about a non-Catholic sect, ask for their written Statement of Faith of Statement of Doctrine. They will have one. You might have to keep asking, but eventually the pastor or someone will hand you a sheet of paper with several “Non-Negotiables.”

I would suggest that you find a former evangelical Christian who has converted to Catholicism and is in your parish, and take these Statements of Faith to that person and ask them to ascertain whether the sect is a cult or some other Christian organization. They will know.

 

[strngrnrth]

Anytime you have a question about a non-Catholic sect, ask for their written Statement of Faith of Statement of Doctrine. They will have one. You might have to keep asking, but eventually the pastor or someone will hand you a sheet of paper with several “Non-Negotiables.”

I would suggest that you find a former evangelical Christian who has converted to Catholicism and is in your parish, and take these Statements of Faith to that person and ask them to ascertain whether the sect is a cult or some other Christian organization. They will know.

It’s not always that easy. The Statement of Faith may be quite legitimate-looking but the actual goings-on in the church can still depart from how most Christians would understand the statement and may contradict it. There is a saying that no one joins a cult. People hang out with people they like and get interested in groups that share their goals, and when unusual circumstances “make” the groups change a little – and a little more – they delay leaving until it becomes too hard.
Vineyard Fellowship looks OK from here. The first site I found critical of it in a search I just did was cessationist (therefore against anyone who beleives in miracles), so I’d say there’s little opposition to Vineyard among Evangelicals in general.

 

[Arcadian]

It’s not always that easy. The Statement of Faith may be quite legitimate-looking but the actual goings-on in the church can still depart from how most Christians would understand the statement and may contradict it. There is a saying that no one joins a cult…

You have got a point there…

 

[geezerbob]

My brother’s wife and one of his sons and his family got involved with the Vineyard bunch. Based on what I heard from them, they have a basic fundamentalist theology, OSAS and SS. Call it what you will, but the way they put things into practice was so cult like that it separated them from all social activities, including family ones, which were not church related.

While I hate to see a child of God fall into sin, it was almost a blessing when their minister got caught in some hanky-panky and the group disbanded. SIL and nephew are now back in the real world and we have our extended family back.

 

[looneytunes]

My wife and I were Vineyard leaders.Our church was considered “non:denominational” but was your Charismatic/Pentecostal/Evangelical type church.Our belief system was the same as these type of churches.Basically we were a Protestant church.We would not have agreed with Mormons/J.W.'s,Christian Science,etc;We tied in with the Vineyard because the leader of our group made contact.We shared common belief system on “the Basic Truths”,what you would find in the Nicean Creed,(Trinity,Virgin birth,Deity of Christ,etc and we loved the worship music.So the belief system on paper is sound,BUT I found that the church began to change.A lot of practices/ideas/attitudes manifested which were questionable.I felt the church was in danger of becoming a Cult not in what they believe but in their conduct/nature/attitude.Subtle changes.There was an overbearing authority/submission culture.There was subtle mind control/manipulation of members.Excluding them in some way(the church NAUGHTY CORNER).Others would be encouraged to exclude them also.This could be seen as discipline(or manipulation).FAITH is spelt MONEY(I believe a quote by John Wimber) sums up the attitude of the Vineyard and how they measure success and people.Middle-class were appreciated/welcome.Visitors welcomed,but membersbowdownr:bangheadWE LEFT.Joined the C.C.:hug1:

 

[Nic2009]

Not a Priest

Christianity is generally held to be those who believe in the Trinity, Virgin Birth, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and life everlasting.

There are three groups who claim the name Christian -

Catholic
Orthodox
Protestant

There are many Protestant groups that do not believe they ARE Protestant.

The Calvary Chapel and Vineyard would call themselves “non-denominational”. From a Catholic perspective, they are Protestant.

LIberty Church I am not familiar with, and the web site won’t load on dial-up. You can look and see if they are Christian or not (they should have a list of what they believe).

libertychurch.tv/

ETA website FINALLY loaded, here are their beliefs - generic non-denom Protestant Christian:

libertychurch.tv/blueangel/about/beliefs.html

Hi friend, just to bring you up to speed as to why Calvary Chapel chooses to define itself as Non-Denominational:
It was due to the origins of Calvary Chapel and the fact that they didn’t not grow out of other traditional denominations (Methodist, Lutherans, Presbyterian, etc.) and not for any other reason.
Vineyard grew out of Calvary Chapel and they may too describe themselves this way, but I don’t really know.
As for the term Protestant, Protestants across the board sometimes take issue with the term due to the giver of the name. I would say for the most part most Protestants are not offended by the term, at least not today.

I hope that clarifies, by his graces, Nic

 

[Nic2009]

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years before converting to Catholicism.

Vineyard is not a cult. It started out as a para-church fellowship and gradually grew into a church. It is non-denominational, but the theology is typical of all the evangelical denominations.

I have personal reasons to intensely dislike Vineyard. This organization split TWO evangelical churches that I was part of. A lot of my friends left the “traditional” church for the cool, new Vineyard Fellowship in town. Blech.

Unfortunately, I believe that a lot of the non-denominational sects do this–they don’t make converts, they merely steal the sheep of other churches, including CATHOLIC Churches.(emphasis added)

Anytime you have a question about a non-Catholic sect, ask for their written Statement of Faith of Statement of Doctrine. They will have one. You might have to keep asking, but eventually the pastor or someone will hand you a sheet of paper with several “Non-Negotiables.”

I would suggest that you find a former evangelical Christian who has converted to Catholicism and is in your parish, and take these Statements of Faith to that person and ask them to ascertain whether the sect is a cult or some other Christian organization. They will know.

The bold portion is what I wanted to address. The Catholic Church is no less guilty in this endeavor and perhaps more so if for no other reasons for the numbers alone. The Catholic Church fold seems to have the impression from their understanding and accepted traditions, that they have a fuller meaning of the Gospel than other Christian traditions and this appears to be the driving force behind their motives to encourage other Christians to become a Western Catholic. It appears that the East too has a way of leading Western Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy. You seldom ever hear of the reverse and the same is true in Protestantism. One reason is that the pool of Western Catholics are vastly larger than the other pools mentioned.
But the point of all this was to put you statement out there and turn it on its’ head to demonstrate that it was something your church does today and yet you hold others accountable to a different standard.

By his graces, his servant, Nic

 

[jlhargus]

The bold portion is what I wanted to address. The Catholic Church is no less guilty in this endeavor and perhaps more so if for no other reasons for the numbers alone. The Catholic Church fold seems to have the impression from their understanding and accepted traditions, that they have a fuller meaning of the Gospel than other Christian traditions and this appears to be the driving force behind their motives to encourage other Christians to become a Western Catholic. It appears that the East too has a way of leading Western Catholics to Eastern Orthodoxy. You seldom ever hear of the reverse and the same is true in Protestantism. One reason is that the pool of Western Catholics are vastly larger than the other pools mentioned.
But the point of all this was to put you statement out there and turn it on its’ head to demonstrate that it was something your church does today and yet you hold others accountable to a different standard. By his graces, his servant, Nic

JL: There is a big difference in deliberately targeting Christian faith groups as a policy and aggressively evangelizing them, because they are seen as an easy target. Than simply getting converts from other faith groups.

 

[Spcgrs]

Hi I have been attending Vineyard churches since I came to faith in Christ in 1997, and I have served in lay leadership as a worship leader. I will try to answer a few of the comments, first Vineyard is not denomination it is an association of “like minded” churches, it is Protestant, the non-denominational tag basically means it’s not affiliated with a traditional Protestant denomination such as Baptist or Presbyterian, Anglican etc. The Vineyard is not a cult and believes in the Nicene Creed and the basic tenants of the Christian faith. The Vineyard movement is “charismatic” but you will find churches that range from almost Pentecostal to very conservative with a trend toward more conservative over the last few years.

Regarding the guy whose wife was “stalked” for leaving the church, I am quite shocked to hear this as I’ve never heard of anything like that happening in a Vineyard church before, most Vineyard churches don’t even have a formal membership at all, although because each church is pretty much self governing you might get one now and then going off the rails a bit. Please don’t judge all Vineyards because of one or two bad apples, and I promise not to judge all Catholic priests because a few have been exposed as pedophiles, we need to give each other the benefit of the doubt and deal on a case by case basis.

Regarding the anti catholic fear…I am a Brit living in the US. I have found that some American Evangelicals think the Catholic Church is some kind of Super Cult, I do not share this belief, also I believe this is not a Vineyard trait but a cultural trait within the US. I haven’t found this belief in the UK, where I was fortunate enough to be invited as a part of the ministry team when my UK Vineyard pastor was asked to preach to a Charismatic Catholic group. It went very well and there was much in common between us, however the sweetness we felt in the Spirit from worshipping and praying together was tinged with sadness for some of us as we were not allowed to take communion with our Catholic brothers and sisters because of the Catholic stance that the Protestant communion is not a “proper” communion I guess judgement goes both ways.

 

[Nic2009]

JL: There is a big difference in deliberately targeting Christian faith groups as a policy and aggressively evangelizing them, because they are seen as an easy target. Than simply getting converts from other faith groups.

Whether Protestants are witnessing to Catholics or the other way around; it’s the same activity. If you like to image that the relatively small number of Protestants are impacting the Catholic faith, I assure it’s not due to the anti-Catholic activity but a clearly defined rendering of the Gospel that would cause one to take a closer look at the claims made by the Western Catholic church.
By his graces, his servant, Nic