Vintage Article 'Civil Rights' for Women

[manualman]

By the law of averages, I got about 40 years or so left.

Your link is nice, but fails to demonstrate any innate requirement for a Cardinal to be a bishop, much less a man. Small t tradition has implicitly had that requirement, but such traditions are as changeable as liturgical music style, language of the liturgy or priestly vestments.

Sacred Tradition, on the other hand, is divinely revealed and therefore immutable (God isn’t capricious).

A lot of catholics don’t seem to be interested in learning the difference between tradition and Tradition. I trust you aren’t one of them.

 

[Beautiful]

By the law of averages, I got about 40 years or so left.

Your link is nice, but fails to demonstrate any innate requirement for a Cardinal to be a bishop, much less a man.

The position of Cardinal is limited to bishops, priests and deacons - none of which women are allowed to be.

Approximately 40 years to go? This article was written 42 years ago. Look at how far some feminists have jammed (and I mean jammed) the door open for themselves. And you think you’ll live to see the day?

 

[GemmaRose]

With all due respect, Gemma, as a fellow woman, if Holy **Mother **Church has spoken (and I believe Pope John Paul II of blessed memory was quite explicit in 1994 at the latest) and confirmed that the Church (not simply ‘the men in the church’) has no authority to ordain women. . .then Holy Mother Church has spoken. …

And with all due respect, Tantum ergo, the early Church allowed women to be deacons. If the Church today would return to this original practice, women would be granted their right to preach, as Jesus intended.

…The Holy Mother Church ordains men and men only to ministers of the Word in the Liturgy of the Mass. Unfortunately there are some feminists who have taken this ‘civil rights’ movements of the 60s and won’t let go.

And you think you have heard some homilies that leave you wishing for a beer or a manicure? Try listening to some of the woman I’ve heard give ‘little thoughts and reflections’ over the past ten years? Gag me with a spoon - the spoon that forces me to listen to these women who like to play act at men on the altar of the Church.

**While Holy Mother Church might only ordain men as ministers of the Word in the Liturgy of the Mass, this rule has come from HMC’s male patriarchy. It does not come from Jesus Himself. The civil rights movement of the 60’s has nothing to do with this.

I’m sorry if you have heard lame preaching from women. I’ve heard lame preaching from men - ordained men. I’ve even heard lame “non-preaching” – a priest who would just photocopy a homily from a book and read it!
**

But everyone keeps telling me that women cannot become priests for the same reason that men cannot give birth, so I figured that testicles were just as important to the first job as a uterus was to the second?

**I don’t understand what anyone’s reproductive organs have to do with preaching the Gospel. **

The fact that women cannot be priests or deacons does not in any way prevent women from preaching the gospel. Especially if she actually understands what that gospel is really all about.

There is absolutely no restriction on women leading bible study, retreats, prayer vigils, group rosaries, educational events, speaking tours, etc…

The fact that women are not permitted to preach homilies is merely a side effect of the fact that homilies must be by priests and that Christ demonstrably reserved the priesthood to men.

…

**First, let me say that this thread was about homilies, not female ordination. I did not even bring up the subject of female ordination.

Second, I’m not 100% certain that “Christ demonstrably reserved the priesthood to men” as the canon of Scripture was finalized by men, however that also is not the point of this thread.

Third, Christ DID “demonstrably” commission women to spread the Gospel. In fact, he explicitly gave them that job.
**

That would be an interesting modification in that you would obviously have to make sure that any female Cardinal would not be eligible for the papacy. . .

Personally, my vote would be for deaconess. . .and not as a ‘substitute’ deacon. We already have nuns and sisters (and hopefully now with the terrible ‘experiments’ of the last 4 decades shown to be Dead Sea fruit, with God’s grace in the next decades we’ll have a resurgence of holy women increasing the ranks of the sisterhood so that we can once again have the thriving Catholic schools and hospitals that we once had under their auspices). . . if we increase female deacons for lay service with a ‘lay voice’ to be heard WITH the clergy that would be fine.

I’m not saying that ‘men’ have not had their historical moments of oppressing women (they have), but I do think that we have to be careful that we don’t make the mistake of thinking that because a ‘group’ of men did this or that and ‘subjugated’ a group of women at points X, Y, and Z, therefore we absolutely must ‘to be fair’ insist that 'women must be heard more and have a position of power in the Church".

The Church isn’t about power (even if some may mistakenly think it is.) It isn’t a democracy where everybody has ‘equal rights’. It’s a kingdom. It’s also a paradox. . .one in which the weakest and the most oppressed here on this earth conversely are the strongest and most powerful in the True Kingdom. We tend to forget about that and want to have our power here and now. We should be listening to our King (and His Scriptures) more often and we would be less concerned with quotas, ‘fairness’, male oppression, a voice for the sisterhood, power, ‘rights’, et. al. and more concerned with humility, meekness, prayer, faith, obedience, and trust. [emphasis added]

**Yes, we should listen to Scripture:

Genesis 1:

26

God said, ‘Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.’
27 God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

It seems that very many people like to skip over Genesis where it states that men AND women are made in the image and likeness of God. To me it sounds pretty much like God intended both sexes to be equal, made in His image.

Catholics accuse Protestants of picking and choosing when it comes to Scripture, but the Church is just as guilty.

I choose to believe the entire Bible.

**

 

[Beautiful]

While Holy Mother Church might only ordain men as ministers of the Word in the Liturgy of the Mass, this rule has come from HMC’s male patriarchy. It does not come from Jesus Himself. The civil rights movement of the 60’s has nothing to do with this.

I’m sorry if you have heard lame preaching from women. I’ve heard lame preaching from men - ordained men. I’ve even heard lame “non-preaching” – a priest who would just photocopy a homily from a book and read it!

This is where you are mistaken. The civil rights movement of the 60’s and misinterpretation of Vatican II are directly related to movements such as the one I’ve witnessed practically all of my life. For some reason it is unique to few areas including Rochester, NY.

And again you make a pot shot at the Patriarchy of the Church and discrediting priests for lame teaching. Try watching Demographic Winter: Decline of the Human Family and then talk to me about the importance of a patriarchy.
Try listening to women wanna’ be priests give a reflection week after week and then tell me a what lame is.

Perhaps you are not familiar with people like Johnette Benkovic who not only are in full submission to the Magisterium but also run a full speaking schedule away from the pulpit during Mass. She and other women have and do spread the Word and not claimed or claim a need to be a deaconess or priestess.

 

[Genesis315]

When were there lay Cardinals? Cardinals were and are Roman clergy (even Cardinals outside of Rome have titular churches in Rome). Are you perhaps referencing subdeacons?

 

[Genesis315]

And with all due respect, Tantum ergo, the early Church allowed women to be deacons. If the Church today would return to this original practice, women would be granted their right to preach, as Jesus intended.

While Holy Mother Church might only ordain men as ministers of the Word in the Liturgy of the Mass, this rule has come from HMC’s male patriarchy. It does not come from Jesus Himself. The civil rights movement of the 60’s has nothing to do with this.

I’m sorry if you have heard lame preaching from women. I’ve heard lame preaching from men - ordained men. I’ve even heard lame “non-preaching” – a priest who would just photocopy a homily from a book and read it!

**I don’t understand what anyone’s reproductive organs have to do with preaching the Gospel. **

**First, let me say that this thread was about homilies, not female ordination. I did not even bring up the subject of female ordination.

Second, I’m not 100% certain that “Christ demonstrably reserved the priesthood to men” as the canon of Scripture was finalized by men, however that also is not the point of this thread.

Third, Christ DID “demonstrably” commission women to spread the Gospel. In fact, he explicitly gave them that job.
**

**Yes, we should listen to Scripture:

Genesis 1:

It seems that very many people like to skip over Genesis where it states that men AND women are made in the image and likeness of God. To me it sounds pretty much like God intended both sexes to be equal, made in His image.

Catholics accuse Protestants of picking and choosing when it comes to Scripture, but the Church is just as guilty.

I choose to believe the entire Bible.

**

Equality of inherent dignity or worth is not the same as sameness or indistinguishability. People have different charisms. Different members of the Body have different functions.

The role of priest in the liturgy is that of Jesus, the Bridegroom. If we read St. Paul’s discussion on marriage we see a similar parallel where the husband represents Christ who offers Himself.

Deaconesses were not the same as “female deacons” but were closer to sacristans or the sisters or women who assist the pastor and help with the practical and administrative duties of a parish.

Likewise, women can surely preach–the Order of Preachers has women like St. Catherine of Siena, for example. But going about the countryside evangelizing is not the same as offering the sacraments or reading the Gospel in the liturgy, which is when Christ, in the person of the ordained man, addresses His Church.

 

[flameburns623]

The following is an article from a vintage Catholic Courier from the Diocese of Rochester, New York.
Vol 77 No. 24 Friday March 11, 1966
The bold paragraphs appear as they were originally presented.

‘Civil Rights’ for Women

Dayton – (NC) – The modern woman, who has widened her sphere of competence, must exercise more influence in the modern Church, Sister Mary Luke of the Sisters of Loretto told nearly 1,500 women of all faiths at a meeting here.

The first American woman to serve as an auditor at the Vatican Council and chairman of the National Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious, Sister Mary Luke championed the rights of women from the pulpit of St. Albert’s church here.

There is a parallel between the civil rights movements and the movement for the exercise of woman’s rights, she said. In the civil rights there has developed for some “an awareness of our prejudices which a few years ago we didn’t even know existed.”

There are “many times when we aren’t even conscious of the prejudices against women,” she said. “we need to become aware. When we do, we can go forward in the Church.”

Catholics are going to have to “absorb” the documents, of the Vatican Council before women gain their rightful stature in the Church, Sister Mary Luke said.

**She singled out specifically a statement in the Constitution of the Church in the Modern World, declaring that “every type of discrimination, whether social or cultural, whether based on sex, race, social condition language or religion is to be overcome and eradicated as contrary to God’s intent. **

Current sociological and psychological changes require that the status of women in society be properly respected, she said. “We can move forward, not stridently or aggressively but openly” to share in the richness of things to come, to which both men and women will contribute, she said.

Sister Mary Luke said she had discussed with both Protestant and Catholic women a suggestion that the Church enlist women “in the third stage of life.”

“When the children are grown, the responsibilities of women are less. In the Western world at least, women at this point have from 25 to 30 years of productive life ahead of them,” she declared.

Taking care of the altar linens and flowers should not be the extent of a woman’s active service to the Church at that stage, Sister Mary Luke said.

“In our day, I think our service must be much deeper and broader than this. There should be opportunities for our bringing to bear on the whole life of the Church all that we have learned.”

She described her presence as one of 15 women seated with 2,500 bishops at the Vatican Council as “a heartwarming experience.”

Some of the bishops told the women “it’s about time” that women, “who compose half of the human race.” Be admitted to the top level meetings of the Church.

“I agreed that it was about time,” she said. “The very fact that we were asked into this highest governing body of the Catholic Church, to be present at all the sessions, to be handed the secret documents with great abandon and confidence that women could keep secrets, had some meaning,” according to Sister Mary Luke.

This order of nuns has a number of it’s members teaching in the college where I went. One such nun expressed the strong opinion in the middle 1980’s that we students would see, in our lifetimes, ordained women priests. She also believed the AIDS crisis, just then in it’s first flower, would lead the CC to permit forms of contraception. She also talked about eventually seeing “another” woman pope, insisting that there had been other women popes in times past, which the modern CC prefers to cover up. Understand: this woman was a history and political science professor. She really should have known better.

Despite being a militant unbeliever in college, I attempted to point out that the “Pope Joan” story (I was not and still am not aware of any other alleged women claimed to have held the papacy) is widely believed by all historians of whom I was aware of, to have been a myth. She didn’t really try to refute me, simply pointed out that SHE was the professor of history, and that SHE was the Catholic in the discussion. Her pulling of rank, along with the disapproving murmurs and stares of my fellow classmates, hushed me. Other sisters in this order were equally questionable for various reasons.

So why hasn’t this religious order been shut down and the members thereof ordered to cloisters for the remainder of their lives, with whichever nuns refuse to comply excommunicated and denounced publicly as no longer either nuns nor Catholics?

 

[Genesis315]

It also bears pointing out that not all men who feel like they should be priests are actually called to do so. Many men are not chosen–it wasn’t their calling despite their “feelings” to the contrary. Women who “feel” called, but are not actually are no different.

There is no right to be a priest, so there is no unjust discrimination when someone (of any sex) is denied it.

There are plenty of other ways to humbly give yourself to the Lord to serve the Church and the world and bring the truth and love that saves, but these feminists do not see that. They see everything in terms of power–power that they lust for.

 

[Genesis315]

I just wanted to add a couple more thoughts. First, reproductive organs is not the only thing that differentiates motherhood and fatherhood–it goes as deep as the soul. The nature of a father is different and complementary to the nature of a mother in every aspect of the life of the family. God reveals Himself as Father in order to show how our relationship should be with Him–we sould treat Him as a Father with all that goes along with that. Priests are to be fathers too. The part of the Body that is a head is always male–Christ the Head of the Church, the Pope (which means papa or father) the head of the Church on earth, a bishop is the head of the particular church, and priests and deacons participate in his ministry, but especially priests who stand as Christ the head at Mass and when proclaiming the Gospel therein.

St. Hildegard of Bingen in her Scivias gives more reasons as to why only men (but not all men) can be priests. She is also an example of a woman of great talents who served the Church greatly!

 

[Beautiful]

So why hasn’t this religious order been shut down and the members thereof ordered to cloisters for the remainder of their lives, with whichever nuns refuse to comply excommunicated and denounced publicly as no longer either nuns nor Catholics?

Interesting memories flamesburn - Actually Sisters of Lorreto are not one of the many religious communities in Rochester, NY.

I’m guessing that whole orders of religous aren’t excommunicated on account of one or a few mavericks.

Thanks to Genesis315 for being so eloquent on this thread.

 

[manualman]

I always feel better theologically when I take fire from both sides!

There certainly were “deaconesses” in the ancient church. But don’t jump to conclusions based on just the word. There is no credible evidence that these deaconesses were understood to have received the sacrament of Holy Orders as we today understand the word “deacon” to mean. The best scholarship can substantiate is that they conducted pastoral care for women that would have been considered inappropriate for male clergy to do (providing live-in housing for widows, care for birthing mothers, assistance to women with infants, etc).

In short, they were what we’d call today sisters or nuns. Then and today, there is nothing wrong with such women proclaiming the gospel in a wide variety of settings. Just not those reserved to those with the sacrament of Holy Orders.

To my other critic, the only requirement for a Cardinal to be a bishop is in relatively recent versions of canon law. Canon law is NOT necessarily divinely inspired Sacred Tradition. Almost by definition, it is the DISCIPLINARY code of the catholic church. Small t, not big T.

 

[Just_Lurking]

There is no credible evidence that these deaconesses were understood to have received the sacrament of Holy Orders as we today understand the word “deacon” to mean.

You are overstating the case here. Some historians and theologians believe that deaconesses received the sacrament of Holy Orders. Others do not. There is no consensus on this issue, and there is no official Catholic Church teaching as to the correct answer.

The strongest credible evidence for ordination is that from the fifth century, the Greek word χειροτονια (cheirotonia) was consistently used for ordination, while the Greek word χειροθεσια (cheirothesia) was consistently used for non-sacramental installation to a ministry, and the former word was used for deaconesses. This is likewise reflected in the ordination ceremony for deaconesses. See here for the following details:

• The ordination takes place within the context of the celebration of the Eucharist, at the same point in the liturgy as the male deacon is to be ordained.
• The ordination takes place before the Altar and follows the same rubrics (except she stands throughout the service and does not kneel as does the male deacon. Women kneeling in this public manner was deemed improper.)
• The ordination begins with the proclamation “Divine Grace” (E Theia Haris) and requires two prayers of epiclesis (just as ordinations for the male deacon, presbyter and bishop require).
• The female deacon receives the diaconal stole (“orarion”) at the conclusion of the ordination rite. The diaconal stole is the traditional symbol of the order of deacon.
• The woman deacon receives Holy Communion at the Altar, as is the case with other members of the clergy.

 

[manualman]

IMO, your argument just transfers the definition from the word “deacon” to the word “ordain.” Historical references to the use of the word ‘ordain’ in commissioning ceremonies for deaconesses don’t prove that the role was thought to be a bestowal of Holy Orders.

One feature of human nature that will never change is that people aren’t always completely careful with the words they use. So I’d argue that unless you can reliably demonstrate that “deaconesses” presided at sacramental ceremonies (baptisms, weddings, mass), then you haven’t proven that the people of the time understood them to have received Holy Orders.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Certainly, there are arguments on both sides. But I don’t think it is fair to be completely dismissive of the side that argues in favor of ordained deaconesses.

Wikipedia (see here) has a some interesting information from the Eastern Orthodox perspective:

Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote:[70]

The order of deaconesses seems definitely to have been considered an “ordained” ministry during early centuries in at any rate the Christian East. … Some Orthodox writers regard deaconesses as having been a “lay” ministry. There are strong reasons for rejecting this view. In the Byzantine rite the liturgical office for the laying-on of hands for the deaconess is exactly parallel to that for the deacon; and so on the principle lex orandi, lex credendi—the Church’s worshipping practice is a sure indication of its faith—it follows that the deaconesses receives, as does the deacon, a genuine sacramental ordination: not just a χειροθεσια but a χειροτονια.

On October 8, 2004, the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Greece voted to permit the ordination of senior nuns to the diaconate.[71][72]

 

[Beautiful]

I’ve been stewing since this weekend. Sunday’s liturgy included
Reading 1
Prv 31:10-13, 19-20, 30-31

When one finds a worthy wife,
her value is far beyond pearls.
Her husband, entrusting his heart to her,
has an unfailing prize.
She brings him good, and not evil,
all the days of her life.
She obtains wool and flax
and works with loving hands.
She puts her hands to the distaff,
and her fingers ply the spindle.
She reaches out her hands to the poor,
and extends her arms to the needy.
Charm is deceptive and beauty fleeting;
the woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
Give her a reward for her labors,
and let her works praise her at the city gates.

The sacramental priest (priest who does his rounds for sacraments only while women lay and religious run the diocese) actually gave a homily in lieu of a reflection given by psuedo priestess. The sacramental priest started his homily just like this: “If you can get past the sexism of the first reading” pause -
There was no laughter from the pews. The only person lip syncing a laugh and physically jiggling with delight was the religious woman in charge of the parish.
Frankly, I am getting pretty disgusted by it all. I wonder when will this nightmare end.
While the couple/few of you digress about women deacons I’ll address the real problem here - gender confusion and disobedience.