Violation of mass

[Mikel12]

I attended mass in one “catholic charismatic home” and didnt like what I found there. The mass was not the usaul mass Im used to. For example the Kyrie eleison was substituted by some song that had nothing like “Have mercy” in it. They just closed their eyes, raised their hands and started started acting like pentecostals. Then came the sanctus, and they sang “Lord we lift up your name with our hearts full of praise- Hosanna in the Highest” instead of “Heaven and Earth are filled with your glory”(from the book of Isaiah and the 2nd part had “Jesus is the king of kings” instead of “Blessed is he who comes in the Lords name”.

Surely I dont mind people praying in any way they want and Im not against Charismatic groups, but when they begin to tamper with mass,I feel like its high time someone stepped forward and stopped them. ImI being harsh on them or its true that they are derailing some people from the church’s key structures?

 

[jbuck919]

Others here are more expert at this, but what you attended was not a Mass. In the first place, a Mass cannot be licitly celebrated in a home. I strongly suggest that you go to a parish priest you feel comfortable talking to and explain the situation. He will give you appropriate professional counsel on the matter.

 

[Mikel12]

Others here are more expert at this, but what you attended was not a Mass. In the first place, a Mass cannot be licitly celebrated in a home. I strongly suggest that you go to a parish priest you feel comfortable talking to and explain the situation. He will give you appropriate professional counsel on the matter.

Just what I thought. If Mass can’t be celebrated in a home, then there are many good Catholics committing the blunder unknowingly, because many people do it here in Uganda. I need more information on that so that I can stop this blunder. Then again, you got it right, that was no mass and I felt it. I was even sad through out the whole event. The songs had nothing Catholic in them. Just cant remember the others.

 

[puzzleannie]

I attended mass in one “catholic charismatic home” and didnt like what I found there. The mass was not the usaul mass Im used to. For example the

in the first place Mass cannot be celebrated outside of the Church or oratory without a good reason, and without the permission of the bishop, so if this is going on it is NOT a regular feature of the Charismatic Renewal, so blame this group, not the whole movement.

Although I am not per se a member of such a group, I have attended charismatic Masses regularly for over 20 years and have never seen any type of liturgical abuse. The only difference observed is the Mass moves just a bit slower, allowing more time in those parts of the Mass that call for silence. Those who do worship in this style will murmer softly–not in any outrageously “pentecostal” emotional or boisterous style–either words of praise in their ordinary language, repeat biblical words such as hosannah, or in tongues, or at least in unrecognizable syllables for perhaps a minute or two after the parts of the Mass where the congregation has a response or dialogue or prayer in unison with the priest. It is neither disruptive or distracting, any more than the ordinary sounds at any Mass-coughing, shuffling, ringing cell phones, restless babies etc.

There is more hand raising and gesturing on the part of some, but that is usually confined to the singing, however the Great Amen is really an AMEN. The priests I know who celebrate charismatic Masse are some of the most orthodox and reverent and holy priests I know, such as Fr. George Montague, Fr. Michael Scanlon TOR. I have never been at such a Mass where words of consecration or any of the proper prayers were changed.

Sorry your experience was different. Do not make the mistake of using one event to characterize an entire movement and spirituality which has the blessing of the Church.

 

[puzzleannie]

Just what I thought. If Mass can’t be celebrated in a home, then there are many good Catholics committing the blunder unknowingly, because many people do it here in Uganda. I need more information on that so that I can stop this blunder. Then again, you got it right, that was no mass and I felt it. I was even sad through out the whole event. The songs had nothing Catholic in them. Just cant remember the others.

the rules might be different or more flexible in some other parts of the world depending on what the Catholic infrastructure is. If there is a regular parish Church all Catholics within those boundaries should be part of the regular schedule parish Masses in that Church. If the territory is so large the Masses must be celebrated elsewhere, that is perfectly legitimate, with the permission of the bishop.

Do not assume there is an abuse unless you know for sure. If you are not the bishop or priest in charge, it is not your job to “stop the blunder”. It is the responsibility of the priest doing it to know his job and obey his bishop. If you don’t know with absolute certainty it is done without the bishop’ permission, don’t assume it.

I have no idea what the lectionary and rubrics are for Uganda, so have no idea if the Mass is celebrated properly, but even if I attended Mass there, it would not be my responsibility to judge, but that of the priest in charge.

 

[Mikel12]

Do not assume there is an abuse unless you know for sure. If you are not the bishop or priest in charge, it is not your job to “stop the blunder”. It is the responsibility of the priest doing it to know his job and obey his bishop. If you don’t know with absolute certainty it is done without the bishop’ permission, don’t assume it.

I dont know whether its a blunder, but I will ask my spiritual director. However If I got word that its a violation of the rules, I would take it upon myself to try and stop it. I think as a catholic its my duty to tell people who might do something wrong unknowingly that they are violating the church rules. Ofcourse its safe to assume that its not a violation since priests participate in the mass, but there’s a priest here who makes me doubt that he knows all these things everytime I chat with him. He doesnt seem to know the Church doctrines and he tries to justify everything he does wrong with wrong excuses. I dont want to judge him but he needs to join this forum in my opinion. He will find many of you who are more informed than him. Atleast I have heard him contradict some teachings that I know of.

I have no idea what the lectionary and rubrics are for Uganda, so have no idea if the Mass is celebrated properly, but even if I attended Mass there, it would not be my responsibility to judge, but that of the priest in charge.

Mass is celebrated properly here too but some people are just beggining to experience the craze of pentecostal churches and are acting inappropriately. Its common to hear catholics here saying absurd things like “Mass is boring”, “the Gregorian chants are old fashioned” etc. I realise its because they dont understand mass that they talk like that. What annoys me even the more is when they say that charismatic masses are more mordern meaningful, just because thay play music with beats like those of jamaican artists. You may not notice this, but the Church here needs serious organisations to fund seminars for most Catholics that are losing touch with the true God and going after secularistic approaches to prayer. One thing that i know of is that people in Europe & America who pray, know what prayer really is. There are millions of africans who were baptised and fill churches on sunday, but know nothing about its teachings. They think all churches are the same and look for God in all churches (pentecostal,protestant etc) but call themselves catholic. Otherwise why would sanctus be substituted by “Lord we lift your name with our hearts full of praise”?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well I’ve attended Mass inside the homes of people and in fact, had Mass said by a priest friend of mine in my home when he Baptized my two children in my home.

It has always been beautiful!

BTW, I’ve also attended Mass outside at a camp. The priest who celebrated the Mass spent 23 years in a Soviet prison.

I really doubt that this is forbidden.

Jim

 

[Walking_Home]

Well I’ve attended Mass inside the homes of people and in fact, had Mass said by a priest friend of mine in my home when he Baptized my two children in my home.

It has always been beautiful!

BTW, I’ve also attended Mass outside at a camp. The priest who celebrated the Mass spent 23 years in a Soviet prison.

I really doubt that this is forbidden.

Jim

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It is not forbidden if the bishop has determined that there was a necessity for it. It is up to the bishop—not the priest.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

1. The Place for the Celebration of Holy Mass

[108.] “The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place, unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place.”[197] The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.

 

[a_cermak]

What about homes with chapels? I graduated from Loyola in Chicago and many of the residence halls had chapels in which Mass was celebrated. My understanding was that as long as a room had been blessed and designated a sacred place which was only used for religious events that it was OK for Mass to be said there. Of course, Loyola was under the jurisdiction of the Jesuits not the Ordinary, so things may have been different.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

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It is not forbidden if the bishop has determined that there was a necessity for it. It is up to the bishop—not the priest.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html#Chapter%20III

1. The Place for the Celebration of Holy Mass

[108.] “The celebration of the Eucharist is to be carried out in a sacred place, unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise. In this case the celebration must be in a decent place.”[197] The diocesan Bishop shall be the judge for his diocese concerning this necessity, on a case-by-case basis.

A decent place can be a home, an outdoor setting etc. It is determined by the Bishop whether a priest can say a Mass in homes or not, and in the case of my Bishop at that time, he left it up to the discretion of the priest.

Jim

 

[estesbob]

Just what I thought. If Mass can’t be celebrated in a home, then there are many good Catholics committing the blunder unknowingly, because many people do it here in Uganda. I need more information on that so that I can stop this blunder. Then again, you got it right, that was no mass and I felt it. I was even sad through out the whole event. The songs had nothing Catholic in them. Just cant remember the others.

I beleive if you have the permission of the Bishop its fine. When my parish started we had daily mass in parishioners homes until we got our temporary building set up.

 

[Walking_Home]

A decent place can be a home, an outdoor setting etc. It is determined by the Bishop whether a priest can say a Mass in homes or not, and in the case of my Bishop at that time, he left it up to the discretion of the priest.

Jim

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Well thats another story. I guess if a particular case of necessity existed—(no church,flooded, burned, etc) a home is a decent place.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

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Well thats another story. I guess if a particular case of necessity existed—(no church,flooded, burned, etc) a home is a decent place.

Another case would be opening an entire church building, cathedral style, to say a Mass for 12 people.

Jim

 

[Walking_Home]

Another case would be opening an entire church building, cathedral style, to say a Mass for 12 people.

Jim

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Could be—but a church (whether large or small) is the house of God—and should be open to any one Catholic.

 

[palmas85]

in the first place Mass cannot be celebrated outside of the Church or oratory without a good reason, and without the permission of the bishop, so if this is going on it is NOT a regular feature of the Charismatic Renewal, so blame this group, not the whole movement.

Although I am not per se a member of such a group, I have attended charismatic Masses regularly for over 20 years and have never seen any type of liturgical abuse. The only difference observed is the Mass moves just a bit slower, allowing more time in those parts of the Mass that call for silence. Those who do worship in this style will murmer softly–not in any outrageously “pentecostal” emotional or boisterous style–either words of praise in their ordinary language, repeat biblical words such as hosannah, or in tongues, or at least in unrecognizable syllables for perhaps a minute or two after the parts of the Mass where the congregation has a response or dialogue or prayer in unison with the priest. It is neither disruptive or distracting, any more than the ordinary sounds at any Mass-coughing, shuffling, ringing cell phones, restless babies etc.

There is more hand raising and gesturing on the part of some, but that is usually confined to the singing, however the Great Amen is really an AMEN. The priests I know who celebrate charismatic Masse are some of the most orthodox and reverent and holy priests I know, such as Fr. George Montague, Fr. Michael Scanlon TOR. I have never been at such a Mass where words of consecration or any of the proper prayers were changed.

Sorry your experience was different. Do not make the mistake of using one event to characterize an entire movement and spirituality which has the blessing of the Church.

Please, I too have Been to Charismatic Masses. Lets at least try to be realistic here. OK? Thanks.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

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Could be—but a church (whether large or small) is the house of God—and should be open to any one Catholic.

Idealistically, yes. However, the church had to be locked, especially after it was broken into, and yes, the chalice with consecrated host were taken. They found the consecrated host on the ground outside behind the church, but the chalice was never recovered.

Also, here in the Northeast during the winter months, it’s unreasonable to heat a large church for a handful of people.
So, at the time it made sense to allow priest to have Baptisms, which included a Mass, in the homes. I’m talking about infant Baptisms here. They eventually changed however, as the priest numbers declined and they had to change the format to Baptisms by groups once a month. The parish built a special area for Baptisms, in a small area which wouldn’t require heating and lighting the entire building.

The bottom line here is, Mass is allowed outside of Church buildings and the specifics are left up to the Bishop.

Jim

 

[OldRedleg]

Some of the most spiritual experiences that I have had in Mass have been outside of a church. In the Military Archdiocese of the United States Mass is frequently celebrated by our Catholic soldiers, sailors, and airmen in some pretty unique locations.

My most memorable Mass was Christmas 1996 in Bosnia. It was celebrated by the Catholic Chaplain for the 1st Armored Division on an abandoned former Yugoslavian Air Force Base south of the city of Tuzla.

As a former communist military base, there was no chapel on the base. Father gathered us in a large room in one of the buildings. All the light fixtures, heating system, and plumbing had been looted from the building. It was a setting that some of the more traditional members of the Forum would probably have a stroke over (No ambo, field desk for an alter, no consecrated sanctuary, no tabernacle, no Sacristy, no alter rail or kneelers.) In fact, I have a sneaky suspicion the building used to be a soldier’s bar/club…

We gathered by candle light. All of us showed up wearing body armor and carrying weapons and ammunition. We stacked this stuff in the rear of the room and took our seats on benches someone had scrounged up from somewhere.

Here we were in this incredibly war ravaged country, a foot of snow on the ground, living in bombed out buildings or tents, and very far from our familes and loved ones. However, the physical location of where we celebrated this Mass meant nothing to us. Having the opportunity to gather together and celebrate it meant everything.

You can not believe the beauty of 75 males singing hymns and the chants of the Mass without any musical instruments for accomplement.

Anyway, I think it is to easy for people to loose sight of what is really important about Mass. You don’t need a cathedral, pipe organs, and all the other “bells and whistles”. As a matter of fact, sometimes all of that stuff can end up distracting you from the spirituality of the liturgy.

 

[Walking_Home]

No sir—we can well differentiate between a Mass celebrated in wartime situations and a Mass being celebrated in places where we have a church available. We are speaking of two different environments.

 

[Lance]

Some of the most spiritual experiences that I have had in Mass have been outside of a church. In the Military Archdiocese of the United States Mass is frequently celebrated by our Catholic soldiers, sailors, and airmen in some pretty unique locations.

My most memorable Mass was Christmas 1996 in Bosnia. It was celebrated by the Catholic Chaplain for the 1st Armored Division on an abandoned former Yugoslavian Air Force Base south of the city of Tuzla.

As a former communist military base, there was no chapel on the base. Father gathered us in a large room in one of the buildings. All the light fixtures, heating system, and plumbing had been looted from the building. It was a setting that some of the more traditional members of the Forum would probably have a stroke over (No ambo, field desk for an alter, no consecrated sanctuary, no tabernacle, no Sacristy, no alter rail or kneelers.) In fact, I have a sneaky suspicion the building used to be a soldier’s bar/club…

We gathered by candle light. All of us showed up wearing body armor and carrying weapons and ammunition. We stacked this stuff in the rear of the room and took our seats on benches someone had scrounged up from somewhere.

Here we were in this incredibly war ravaged country, a foot of snow on the ground, living in bombed out buildings or tents, and very far from our familes and loved ones. However, the physical location of where we celebrated this Mass meant nothing to us. Having the opportunity to gather together and celebrate it meant everything.

You can not believe the beauty of 75 males singing hymns and the chants of the Mass without any musical instruments for accomplement.

Anyway, I think it is to easy for people to loose sight of what is really important about Mass. You don’t need a cathedral, pipe organs, and all the other “bells and whistles”. As a matter of fact, sometimes all of that stuff can end up distracting you from the spirituality of the liturgy.

Thanks, I was just going to say I remember mass in some God awful places in the army.

 

[mommyof4]

Others here are more expert at this, but what you attended was not a Mass. In the first place, a Mass cannot be licitly celebrated in a home. I strongly suggest that you go to a parish priest you feel comfortable talking to and explain the situation. He will give you appropriate professional counsel on the matter.

Are you sure about this? Several years ago I attended a mass in our Deacon’s home that was celebrated by our Bishop. I really can’t imagine him doing anything “wrong” on purpose.