Violence against Gays is Bad, BUT..... understandable

[Zoe_Brain]

The culture of homosexuality is a culture of self-absorption because it does not value self-sacrifice. It is a glaring example of what John Paul II has called the culture of death. Islamic fundamentalists clearly understand the damage that homosexual behavior inflicts on a culture. That is why they repress such behavior by death. Their culture is anything but one of self-absorption. It may be brutal at times, but any culture that is able to produce wave after wave of suicide bombers (women as well as men) is a culture that at least knows how to value self-sacrifice. Terrorism as a way to oppose the degeneration of the culture is to be rejected completely since such violence is itself another form of degeneracy. One, however, does not have to agree with the gruesome ways that the fundamentalists use to curb the forces that undermine their culture to admit that the Islamic fundamentalist charge that Western Civilization in general and the U.S.A. in particular is the “Great Satan” is not without an element of truth

Extract from a Letter from Guam Bishops condemning Gay Marriage

I won’t comment. I request all those who do to remain respectful of the Church and polite.

 

[Dcngman]

I cannot comment on the actual letter itself. Since only a portion of the letter was posted; I cannot determine what was the actual intent or meaning of the letter. Still violence against anyone because of what they believe or what they do (if it doesn’t cause harm to another human being) is not understandable. If we truly believe that we are created in the image of God; then how can we even consider harming another human being? Violence against any human being, including oneself, is violence directed against God. Suicide bombers show their contempt for God by the destruction of themselves (for they are themselves made in the image of God) and others (made in the image of God). Self sacrifice involves offering oneself up in place of another. It is an act of love, not hate. We are compelled by the sacrifice of Christ Himself to do like wise and be willing to lay down our lives for others (family, friends, neighbors and enemies).

 

[Dale_M]

I cannot comment on the actual letter itself. Since only a portion of the letter was posted; I cannot determine what was the actual intent or meaning of the letter.

The letter was a public statement in opposition to Bill 185 being considered by Guam’s senate. The bill would allow for same-sex marriage. Zoe’s link worked for me, and I was able to read all three pages. But here is another link to the letter:
guampdn.com/assets/pdf/M01448481021.PDF

The archbishop’s terrorist comments are unusual. But he is apparently worried about Muslims and their criticism of the West. I think he mentioned terrorism in an attempt to scare readers, with the implications that Guam maybe targeted by terrorists if Bill 185 passes.

 

[Mystic_Banana]

Violence against *anyone * may be considered ‘understandable’ - but that doesn’t make it right

I ‘understand’ why the Romans threw early Christians to the Lions - should I think it’s legitimated therefore??? I think not!

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I think he mentioned terrorism in an attempt to scare readers, with the implications that Guam maybe targeted by terrorists if Bill 185 passes.

According to the Archbishop, it will also cause the health care system to collapse, out of wedlock births to increase, and (I’m not kidding) The Eventual End Of Western Civilisation. Plus there’s this:

It makes no sense for the U.S. Government to send our boys to fight Al Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan, while at the same time it embraces the social policies embodied in Bill 185 (as President Obama has done). Such policies only furnish further arguments for the fundamentalists in their efforts to gain more recruits for the war against the “Great Satan.”

In addition to the Al Qaeda’s arguments that we have not reverted to Islam, we allow women to vote, and we are governed by a Democracy rather than a Caliphate, as Allah commands. Oh, and they want Spain, half of France, most of Austria, and India back too.

Again, I won’t comment as to my opinions of this. I feel unable to comply with the required respect for the Church and politeness that I myself stated was vital when it comes to debating this issue. I urge anyone who feels strongly about the issue to pause, reflect, and ask themselves whether their comments will be useful and charitable. Mine would be neither, I’m afraid.

 

[apromisemade]

Did I read that right!?! Violence against gays is understandable!?!

I assume you also think violence against and between, say, Latinos is understandable?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Quite frankly I’m tired of having to worry about what Moslems think. They condemned European ancestiors 1300 years ago for allowing women to show their hair out in public and not forcing our women into slavery. 95% of all current conflicts involve at least one Islamic nation. I say let Israel stomp on any of them that act up.

 

[DOShea]

Did I read that right!?! Violence against gays is understandable!?!

I assume you also think violence against and between, say, Latinos is understandable?

No, you didn’t read it right. The title of the thread is misleading. You have to read the article to see that sentiment is NOWHERE in it. You can see from the OP’s excerpt it flatly states terrorism as a form of dealing with degradation of the culture is NOT right. The comparison to Islamic culture is there to answer the anticipated critique that morality has no place in public policy. It is simply saying that culture does inject a morality, though it does so in an unacceptable way.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

No, you didn’t read it right. The title of the thread is misleading. You have to read the article to see that sentiment is NOWHERE in it.

So how do you interpret this?

Islamic fundamentalists clearly understand the damage that homosexual behavior inflicts on a culture…Terrorism as a way to oppose the degeneration of the culture is to be rejected completely… One, however, does not have to agree with the gruesome ways that the fundamentalists use to curb the forces that undermine their culture to admit that the Islamic fundamentalist charge that Western Civilization in general and the U.S.A. in particular is the “Great Satan” is not without an element of truth

Violence against Gays is Bad, BUT… understandable.

 

[puzzleannie]

So how do you interpret this?
Violence against Gays is Bad, BUT… understandable.

No: violence against individuals or against any class of persons simply because they belong to that class, except state sanctioned execution of prisoners condemned of capital crimes with full due process of law, is never understandable.

My reading of what you cited in no way condones such violence.

 

[Dale_M]

So how do you interpret this?
Violence against Gays is Bad, BUT… understandable.

Zoe, although I disagree with much of what the archbishop wrote, I think you misinterpret his comment. He isn’t approving of terrorism, he is approving of their view that Western culture is debased.

Again, I won’t comment as to my opinions of this. I feel unable to comply with the required respect for the Church and politeness that I myself stated was vital when it comes to debating this issue. I urge anyone who feels strongly about the issue to pause, reflect, and ask themselves whether their comments will be useful and charitable. Mine would be neither, I’m afraid.

I applaud your self-restraint. Not only does it show politeness and respect, but perhaps also an awareness that venting is often counter-productive, shutting down discussion instead of opening it up.

 

[Dcngman]

I only made the comment about basing my post on what was presented in the previous post; because that is what was presented. The link did work for me; but, to me, what was presented in the previous post is what should be evaluated. Therefore I limited my response to only that contained in the previous post. Also I really doubt that Gay Marriage is going to bring the fall of Western Civilization. This isn’t the first time that the Western world has had to deal with this subject and it may not be the last. The early Church spent hundreds of years living amongst a civilization that embraced homosexuality and yet the Church prevailed. I found the letter to be more fanatical than reasonable and I have grown tired of irrationality being substituted for common sense. The Church will prevail even if Gay Marriage is made legal in the U.S. and the World. Our response as Christians is to stand firm; yet be compassionate. We should never see such violence as understandable. Such violence is the work of an unreasonable and irrational mind.

 

[aspawloski4th]

The church might get a pass from me for not understanding the big picture, but Islam doesn’t get any pass from me. Islam is antifreewill, anti using your own brain. Islam maybe anti abortion and anti gay marriage, but for the wrong reasons. It’s not up to us to change anything based on what Islam thinks of us.

 

[DOShea]

So how do you interpret this?

Islamic fundamentalists clearly understand the damage that homosexual behavior inflicts on a culture…Terrorism as a way to oppose the degeneration of the culture is to be rejected completely… One, however, does not have to agree with the gruesome ways that the fundamentalists use to curb the forces that undermine their culture to admit that the Islamic fundamentalist charge that Western Civilization in general and the U.S.A. in particular is the “Great Satan” is not without an element of truth

No, you are reading into it words that are not there. Show me where it says this violence is “understandable?” What I read are the words “is to be rejected completely.” My dictionary says completely means in its entirety, fully, all of it. It says nothing about “understandable.”

As another poster already stated, the statement simply points out that Islamic fundamentalists view western culture as evil and ONE reason is because they view homosexual activity as accepted by western culture. That statement of belief stands independent of how they deal with that belief. Can you not see any distinction between one statement that says “homosexual acts are wrong,” and another statement that poses the idea one should “kill them all?”

Consider an example. We have an ongoing debate over abortion. People on either side of the issue can be said to have “a belief” about the issue. Some of those, on either side, have gone too far, committing murders of opponents. No one challenges the base set of beliefs as over the top, but everyone condemns the way those individual believers dealt with it.

Same with the quoted statement. It says there is a viewpoint, but the way they deal with it is completely wrong.

 

[Kevin42]

The church might get a pass from me for not understanding the big picture, but Islam doesn’t get any pass from me. Islam is antifreewill, anti using your own brain. Islam maybe anti abortion and anti gay marriage, but for the wrong reasons. It’s not up to us to change anything based on what Islam thinks of us.

How exactly is Islam anti free will? Are you talking about all branches of Islam, or just Shi’a or just Sunni? Are you talking about Muslims in the United States, or are you talking about governments that use Islam as a means to legitimize their rule? You are making a very vague statement, and clarification would be appreciated.

 

[aspawloski4th]

How exactly is Islam anti free will? Are you talking about all branches of Islam, or just Shi’a or just Sunni? Are you talking about Muslims in the United States, or are you talking about governments that use Islam as a means to legitimize their rule? You are making a very vague statement, and clarification would be appreciated.

The branches of Islam we have to worry about, live a life style where life is programmed especially for women. You do what you need to survive all day and the rest of the awayke time worship allah. Everything is laid out for you all the thinking is done for you. I have met plenty of moslems over the years and they seem to be mind numbed robots to me.

 

[crazzeto]

Extract from a Letter from Guam Bishops condemning Gay Marriage

I won’t comment. I request all those who do to remain respectful of the Church and polite.

Well for starters, to be fair the whole document should have been quoted. I know that typically we frown on this in this forum, due to copy right issues. But this was written by Catholic Bishops, and we are a Catholic forum. I see no copy right issue, I do however see great need for context when posting something like this.

For starters, your headline here is nnot an accurate portrail of what is in this (powerful) document. At no point in time, in no way does this document condone voilence against any group, nor does it even state its “understandable”. What it does on the otherhand, is point to a group very familiar to the people of Guam, and say “we disagree with them completley, and condem them but even they understand this basic principal”. There is a world of difference from this statement, and the one proposed in the subject line of this posting and the selective quote pulled from the document, which by the way appears only at the very end of the document.

If one takes the time to read this document (I just printed and read it), one will see that it is full of references to cultural problems unique to not just Guam, but a particular district in Guam. They build on these as a point of referece to build the case for upholding the sanctity of marraige. So believe it or not, while some of the cultural references are forgin to me (sitting at my KB in Raleigh NC), I generally agree with what was written in the document.