Violence in Heaven?
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Pfaffenhoffen
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Heaven is not up in the Sky.Can somebody explain this line of Scripture as I think I have read it wrong?
Matthew 11:12 Since John the Baptist came, up to this present time, the kingdom of Heaven has been subjected to violence and the violent are taking it by storm.
Heaven is inside you.
You simply are not aware of it.
So, the Kingdom of Heaven in this world is subject to violence but not after death, which liberates us from the body.
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TimothyH
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Kingdom of Heaven was used as an idiom for Kingdom of God meaning God’s kingdom on earth.
The Jewish Kings and the Roman emperor didn’t take kindly to people who walked around Judea talking about setting up earthly kingdoms. Yet Jesus is a King and he did just that, set up a kingdom on earth, the Church. So “Kingdom of Heaven” was used instead of Kingdom of God. It was safer that way.
In fact, Heaven, the altar, the temple, the gold in the temple - these were all used in place of the word God, especially when swearing. One would swear on the temple or the altar or the gold in the temple instead of involking God’s name in a rash oath or as part of a curse.
When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)
Jesus was careful about the perception of him as an earthly king and he doesn’t take sides. They tried to trap him by asking him if it was permissable to pay the tax to Ceasar or not. If he said no, he was against Rome and treasonous. If he said yes, he was against Israel and blasphemous. But he chooses no earthly kingdom, instead saying that one is to render to ceaser what is Ceasars and to God what is God’s. Jesus says, “I am not on the side of Isreal or on the side of Rome. I am on God’s side.”
Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” (Matthew 13:31-32)
Jesus describes the “Kingdom of Heaven” in his parables (Matthew 13) in different ways including the idea a mustard seed which turns into a shrub, and then grows into a tree. The reference to the tree is important and he even adds that birds will nest in the tree. Trees often represent powerful nations in the Bible, such as the “Cedars of Lebanon” and “a tree planted by running water” and the plane tree and palms listed in the Psalms and Song of Songs. “The kingdom of Heaven is like a seed which grows into a tree” would have been an allusion to his own Kingdom growing into a powerful nation. Gentile nations were often represented by birds and these build their nest in the mustard tree - make their home in Jesus’ kindom which is the Church.
All of this is a way for him to speak about his kingdom on earth without actually speaking about his kingdom on earth.
-Tim-
The Jewish Kings and the Roman emperor didn’t take kindly to people who walked around Judea talking about setting up earthly kingdoms. Yet Jesus is a King and he did just that, set up a kingdom on earth, the Church. So “Kingdom of Heaven” was used instead of Kingdom of God. It was safer that way.
In fact, Heaven, the altar, the temple, the gold in the temple - these were all used in place of the word God, especially when swearing. One would swear on the temple or the altar or the gold in the temple instead of involking God’s name in a rash oath or as part of a curse.
When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)
Jesus was careful about the perception of him as an earthly king and he doesn’t take sides. They tried to trap him by asking him if it was permissable to pay the tax to Ceasar or not. If he said no, he was against Rome and treasonous. If he said yes, he was against Israel and blasphemous. But he chooses no earthly kingdom, instead saying that one is to render to ceaser what is Ceasars and to God what is God’s. Jesus says, “I am not on the side of Isreal or on the side of Rome. I am on God’s side.”
Another parable he put before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field; it is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is the greatest of shrubs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.” (Matthew 13:31-32)
Jesus describes the “Kingdom of Heaven” in his parables (Matthew 13) in different ways including the idea a mustard seed which turns into a shrub, and then grows into a tree. The reference to the tree is important and he even adds that birds will nest in the tree. Trees often represent powerful nations in the Bible, such as the “Cedars of Lebanon” and “a tree planted by running water” and the plane tree and palms listed in the Psalms and Song of Songs. “The kingdom of Heaven is like a seed which grows into a tree” would have been an allusion to his own Kingdom growing into a powerful nation. Gentile nations were often represented by birds and these build their nest in the mustard tree - make their home in Jesus’ kindom which is the Church.
All of this is a way for him to speak about his kingdom on earth without actually speaking about his kingdom on earth.
-Tim-
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TimothyH
Guest
I like this. Mine is a literal interpretation - what the words on the page say. I like your spiritual/moral interpretation. Sometimes I think like an engineer.
-Tim-
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AmbroseSJ
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By subduing our evil inclinations, mortification and penance we do violence to ourselves in order to obtain the kingdom of heaven. (Haydock Commentary) Certainly John the Baptist was an illustration of this. Hence “Since John the Baptist…”Can somebody explain this line of Scripture as I think I have read it wrong?
Matthew 11:12 Since John the Baptist came, up to this present time, the kingdom of Heaven has been subjected to violence and the violent are taking it by storm.
B
bmullins
Guest
Pope Benedict the XVI surmised in his book Jesus of Nazareth that when Jesus used the phrase the Kingdom of Heaven, he was often referring to himself. If we accept that understanding as a valid one, it could easily show that this verse was about the opposition to Christ and his impending crucifixion.
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thistle
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D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:Can somebody explain this line of Scripture as I think I have read it wrong?
Matthew 11:12 Since John the Baptist came, up to this present time, the kingdom of Heaven has been subjected to violence and the violent are taking it by storm.
Ver. 12. Suffereth violence, &c. It is not to be obtained but by main force, by using violence upon ourselves, by mortification and penance, and resisting our perverse inclinations. (Challoner) — Certainly it is great violence for a man to look for a seat in heaven, and to obtain that by his virtue which was refused him by his nature. (St. Jerome in St. Thomas Aquinas) — The kingdom of heaven, &c. That is, the kingdom of heaven is to be obtained by mortification, penance, poverty, and those practices of austerity which John, both by word and example, pointed out. According to this interpretation, the kingdom of heaven means eternal life. Or the meaning may be, the kingdom of heaven is taken by the violent, because it is not now confined, as in the old law, to one people, but open to all, that whoever will may enter in and take possession of it. The kingdom of heaven, in this interpretation, is taken for the Church of Christ, for the gospel, and also for eternal life. (Menochius)
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TOME
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While the New American Bible is not the most popular book in this forum, I like its footnotes and I think the footnote for Matthew 11:12 offers a valuable insight. It say this passage is difficult to understand, however, it takes the view point that Christ reference here is about those who are hindering the spread of the Kingdom of God and as bmullins pointed out Jesus considered himself to be in a unique relationship to this Kingdom,so Jesus was complaining about those who were hindering his ministry. I this this point is made clearer if you go on to read verses 16 through 19.
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Pfaffenhoffen
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If you read the writings of Lucia, the seer of Fatima, she says that she saw herself inside the Holy Trinity and the Holy Trinity inside her.
Literaryly, we put heaven on top and hell down. You never put heaven down and hell in the sky. It does not belong to imagination.
There are good things: up, forward (go forward), rise, sky, …
There are bad things: down, backwards (go backwards), fall, center of the Earth (fire)…
Those are beautiful images but do not correspond to reality. If you say that Heaven is inside you somebody will answer: “Where? In the Stomach or in the bowels?”
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