Violence in the Old Testament

[Nate13]

Ex. 20:4

Its pretty obvious from the context we are not to create graven images to worship… images in and of themselves are not bad. If we can’t have graven images then I guess Moses will have to put away his bronze serpent staff…

Christians are too ready to declare the Bible as God word without knowing or giving thought to all this mean-spirited violence that supposedly was the will of the Lord. Not me. That is slander against my God whom the Bible identifies as love. I go with the gospel of Christ, which is love God and one another. Remember how Christ kept saying: “Ye have heard it said, and eye for an eye…but I say unto you, love your enemies…” etc. How does one reconcile the two? I chose the message of Jesus, not the so-called Mosaic law, much of it not fit for humane society.

You have to think of the Israelites in the Old Testament as being like little children. Do you have the same expectations of them as you do adults? They weren’t ready for the fullness of the Truth so Moses had to give in on some things so that the Israelite’s would have a chance.

There is some wisdom in the Proverbs, though here and there some nonsense, too. Someone has said that Solomon was so wise because his 700 wives and 300 concubines advised him. Do you believe that? Job is rather fascinating. I like certain verses from Eccl. 3. There is much meat in some of the prophets, mixed in with some obvious and bitter racial and religious prejudice. I wonder how the book of Esther got in the Bible. God isn;t mentioned even once, and as I recall revenge was a major theme. Was it 75,000 who were slaughtered? I really should recheck some of these details.

Solomon was no longer following God first at that point. It actually started with him building the temple. You fail to see the point of the Old Testament because you don’t look at it in the context of Salvation History. They had to learn to stand up before they could learn to run. It’s easy to sound righteous now in comparison to the Old Testament but without the gift of the Holy Spirit I guarantee you we would be doing no better than the Israelite’s back then. Learn from their mistakes and acknowledge the awesomeness of God’s divine plan, beginning to end.

There is much meat in some of the prophets, mixed in with some obvious and bitter racial and religious prejudice.

There is prejudice because of the times they were in. The Jewish people also struggled to see that yes they were God’s chosen people but that wasn’t the fullness of what God wanted. Beginning with King David especially we see God striving to make the Jewish people realize that he is the God of all people and he wants them to bring his word to all nations. They rebelled of course but that was nothing new.

 

[Ben_Bet_Beh]

It seems to me that Roy5 is bringing up legitimate concerns about what is written in the first book of Samuel chapter 15. To question what you have always believed is a good thing, not heretical. How can one grow in faith if one blindly accepts everything that the Bible teaches without question?

 

[TimothyH]

The people whom God commanded Israel to destroy wholesale were not innocent bystanders, hanging out at Starbucks looking at their iPads when all of a sudden God decided to wipe them out. These were some pretty bad people.

Many of them worshipped the god Molech. Molech was a large, hollow statue with outstretched arms. They would fill the statue with burning coals until the statue glowed red hot and then place infants and children in the arms of the statue as sacrifice, searing the children to death - burning them alive.

Boy prostitution was part of temple worship for many cultures. Lot has to deal with threats of homosexual gang rape in Genesis 19. In another part of the Bible, a gang rapes a woman all night long and then leaves her dead on the doorstep to her house. There is a reason why God has to tell Israel specifically that men shall not have sex with their mother - the practice was common in the nations around Israel, not to mention sex with animals.

Even Jericho appears to have been innocent when Joshua is commanded to destroy it. But the people of Jericho had heard about how God parted the sea for Israel and destroyed Pharao’s army. Then one day they wake up and see the entire nation of Israel camped right across the river - if you go to Jericho, the plains of Moab where the Isralites camped are in plain sight. The river was flooded in spring and God stopped the flow of the river for Israel. And what did the people of Jerich do? Give up? No - bunch of fools saw God’s power and decided to fight. In choosing to fight and not acquiesce, they were choosing to fight God, not Israel.

These people were hardly innocent. Even the children whom God commanded be killed were lucky if they wern’t sacrificed or made into prostitutes and the ones who weren’t grew up to sacrifice their own children.

These were bad dudes.

-Tim-

 

[Ben_Bet_Beh]

…These people were hardly innocent. Even the children whom God commanded be killed were lucky if they wern’t sacrificed or made into prostitutes and the ones who weren’t grew up to sacrifice their own children…

Much of what you said makes sense to me. However, I am having a difficult time reconciling that the infants that God directed through his prophet Samuel be killed by King Saul and his army were somehow lucky.

 

[Nate13]

Much of what you said makes sense to me. However, I am having a difficult time reconciling that the infants that God directed through his prophet Samuel be killed by King Saul and his army were somehow lucky.

God tells us himself why he is destroying these people:

16 “Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 “But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the LORD your God has commanded you, 18 in order that they may not teach you to do according to all their detestable things which they have done for their gods, so that you would sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 29:16-18).

We already knew the Amalekites were going to be destroyed from back in Moses’ time as well.

8 Then Amalek came and fought against Israel at Rephidim. 9 So Moses said to Joshua, “Choose men for us, and go out, fight against Amalek. Tomorrow I will station myself on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand.” 10 And Joshua did as Moses told him, and fought against Amalek; and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill. 11 So it came about when Moses held his hand up, that Israel prevailed, and when he let his hand down, Amalek prevailed. 12 But Moses’ hands were heavy. Then they took a stone and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on one side and one on the other. Thus his hands were steady until the sun set. 13 So Joshua overwhelmed Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword. 14 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” 15 And Moses built an altar, and named it The LORD is My Banner; 16 and he said, “The LORD has sworn; the LORD will have war against Amalek from generation to generation” (Exodus 17:1-16).

 

[Roy5]

** I’m well aware that those devotees committed to a rigid religious position, such as the Bible being the infallible and literal Word of God, resist any suggestion that the Bible may contain erroneous information.** The natural reaction is that various defenses will be offered as is true here on CAF. The whole Moloch business. This involved the sacrifice of babies, so God demanded that their babies be murdered. One evil justifies another? Etc. I can’t go along with that logic. That certainly isn’t the teaching of Christ. “Ye have heard it said…but I say unto you…” Re-read the Sermon on the Mount.

** This is an important factor in why so many have turned away from traditional religion**. They cannot honestly subscribe to stories from scripture that offend both their brains and their morality. How can one preach love one another while justifying the horrendous genocide ordered by God according to the Bible? I personally go with Christ and refuse to believe that the Lord would demand such cruelty as that which we find in various parrs of the Old Testament. Various excuses may be offered, but none convince me. Instead, I believe that these stories may have been true and God was used to justify the crimes committed.

** Religion has a way of blinding the faithful.** Extremist Muslims are blinded and 9-11 was one of the results. Southern slaveholders were blinded and often argued that God approved of slavery. Didn’t the Jews permit slavery (even selling one’s daughter into slavery!) and St. Paul said that slaves should obey their masters (Eph. 6:8; Col. 3:22; Titus 2:9)? Blind faith cn be as bad and sad as no faith at all.

** As mentioned already, I refuse to acquiesce to the idea that God dictated the murder of so many innocent people.** That sort of god would be more like a Hitler, Stalin or Mao than the compassionate and loving God revealed to us by and through Christ.
.

 

[Ben_Bet_Beh]

…St. Paul said that slaves should obey their masters (Eph. 6:8; Col. 3:22; Titus 2:9)? Blind faith cn be as bad and sad as no faith at all…

In the case of St. Paul’s reference to slavery, slavery back in Roman times was much different than the slavery that would later develop. For example, slaves could buy there own freedom in Roman times, but could not in later modern times. This knowledge about St. Paul’s references to slavery helps me with the context.

Having said that, I am still working through the killing of infants ordered by God through Samuel.

 

[Roy5]

**Ben Bet Beh/B

Various American defenders of slavery made the same argument. Slavery was benevolent, slaves were treated well, often treated like members of the family, sometimes they were freed (as in George Washington's last will and testament), etc.

 Slavery is slavery. It is lack of freedom Slavery in Greek and Roman times often included assigning men to a lifetime on galleys, or forcing women to be concubines.

 No use trying to sweeten it.**

 

[Nate13]

Ben Bet Beh

If a slave enters slavery of his own free will by swearing an oath to his master is it really slavery? We have created a society that allows for this to no longer be necessary all be it some would consider the welfare system as making people “slaves” of the government. I think its easy for us to stand up on our high horse now and put down all the people of the past, when we are blind to see all the toil and fear they went through in order for us to be where we are today. You should stop judging people of the past, who are long gone by now and have been judged by the true Judge.

 

[Nate13]

In the case of St. Paul’s reference to slavery, slavery back in Roman times was much different than the slavery that would later develop. For example, slaves could buy there own freedom in Roman times, but could not in later modern times. This knowledge about St. Paul’s references to slavery helps me with the context.

Having said that, I am still working through the killing of infants ordered by God through Samuel.

“Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.” 15
Exodus 17:15

God gave the Israelite’s the promise land. The Amalek people were told this and didn’t care bringing judgment upon themselves.

We don’t like God’s judgment here because he killed innocents as well as the soldiers of the Amalek people. However if they only killed the soldiers of the Amalek people, what would have happened by the next generation? They would have sprung up with a new army or the women of the Amalek people would have come and corrupted the men of the Israelite’s. A harsh reality called for a harsh judgment. This is turn though fell on the shoulders of the Israelite’s because killing them was only necessary because they were all too weak to prevent themselves from being corrupted by them. You have to understand how civilizations reacted to each other back then to understand why God took the steps he did.

 

[SteveGC]

** I’m well aware that those devotees committed to a rigid religious position, such as the Bible being the infallible and literal Word of God, resist any suggestion that the Bible may contain erroneous information.** I can’t go along with that logic. That certainly isn’t the teaching of Christ. “Ye have heard it said…but I say unto you…” Re-read the Sermon on the Mount.

Speaking of defying logic, Roy…

How is it that you claim the Bible can contain error, yet believe wholeheartedly the New Testament, or atleast those portions of it you’re using here to defend your case?

How do you know that THOSE passages you use are not the ones in error, Roy? You, yourself directly implied that the Bible COULD be in error…but you turn around and profess to know exactly which parts are NOT in error?

I don’t get it… Are you saying that the Old Testament contains errors, but that the New Testament is inerrant? Why is it that Christ Himself revered the Old Testament? Didn’t he know that some of it was in error, as you supposedly know?

 

[Nate13]

Speaking of defying logic, Roy…

How is it that you claim the Bible can contain error, yet believe wholeheartedly the New Testament, or atleast those portions of it you’re using here to defend your case?

How do you know that THOSE passages you use are not the ones in error, Roy? You, yourself directly implied that the Bible COULD be in error…but you turn around and profess to know exactly which parts are NOT in error?

I don’t get it… Are you saying that the Old Testament contains errors, but that the New Testament is inerrant? Why is it that Christ Himself revered the Old Testament? Didn’t he know that some of it was in error, as you supposedly know?

Yep and Jesus is standing there talking with Elijah and Moses during the Transfiguration and Moses is the one responsible for laying down most of the law including the whole “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth line”. I think you make a lot more problems for yourself by excluding parts of the Old Testament than you do by searching for answers as to why God would allow for such things.

 

[Ben_Bet_Beh]

…We don’t like God’s judgment here because he killed innocents as well as the soldiers of the Amalek people…

I’ve done some further reflection on this and have taken into consideration that also the animals were killed by the Israelites. This leads me to believe there may have been some demonic possession involved here that could - in God’s judgement - have been most effectively dealt with by killing them all. The infants we can entrust to God’s mercy.

 

[stevekehl]

I think the violence is there in the historical books because of what is remembered. A The turning point in a civilization or a life is a time of struggle. These times are recorded, talked about, and remembered. During peaceful times, no big changes come about.
Revolutionary war. George Washington. Led us to war and formed a new country.
We do celebrate James Madison in such esteem because he led in a time of peace and no big changes took place.

Just a small note here before I start. James Madison was president during the War of 1812. If America had lost that war Britain would have taken the Louisiana Purchase and linked its Canadian colonies with Great Lake territory to tie in with the Mississippi Valley and New Orleans. This would have prevented American expansion westward, kept east coast trade tied to Britain and allowed Mexico to expand north and east since Spain was an English ally. Who knows how America would have ended up.

The violence of the Old Testament served a purpose, the preservation of the Jews as a distinct ethnic and religous group for the arrival of Jesus, and, I believe, the role God has for them in the end times (the 144,000 Jewish witnesses mentioned in Revelations). If the Jews had moved into Canaan and set up shop they would have been broken into small groups, intermarried and disappeared. The Amalakites were a raiding party that had been victimizing Israel for generations, so they were a threat to Israel and they had generations to give up their violent ways and turn to God. God knew they would never worship Him, any that were going to convert had decades (maybe centuries) to choose God. And make no mistake, this is the same God we have today. Don’t innocent children pay for their parent’s bad decisions today. Not just those aborted, but born with defects due to maternal drug and alcohol abuse, fathers abandonding families, parents arrested and kids sent to foster care, children molested by families and strangers. God said in the OT the sins of the fathers would be visited on their children to the fifth or sixth generation and we see this still today. The cultures wiped out in the OT rejected the option of joining Israel and worshipping the one true God. I think people today have lost their fear of God, they want a god that gives them what they want and doesn’t judge them. God is the same today as He was 5,000 years ago, saying I don’t believe it doesn’t make it a reality.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

Roy5 - The pride you express in your independence of thought is in fact a rejection of GOD.

GOD organized religion with Abraham, Moses and Peter to provide HIS creations with an avenue to build a personal relationship with HIM.

It is not GOD WHO teaches us “to each his own”, but rather “walk in faith” and “be not afraid” and it is GOD who provides HIS creations with the leadership, sheperding and guidance of the “Pope” you reject as well as the teaching and lessons of the “book” you reject.

Yes, heaven will be filled with many people of many faiths, but all who have accepted and come to believe in GOD and follow HIS ways, not their own. All roads do not lead to heaven, but everyone can get off the road they are on and find the true path home.

How could you call Roy5 proud for expressing his independence of thought? He should be praised for demanding reasoned evidence for what he believes in.

 

[Roy5]

Probably I have said enough to present my views on this subject. If I had to believe that God ordered the wholesale slaughter of inhabitants of Jericho, the killing of every last Amalekite (among them children, babies in the womb), and the many other atrocities of the Old Testament I would be at odds with my very understanding of my Christian faith. How could I rejoice in such a slogan as “Saul his killed his thousands, but David has killed his ten thousands!” How is that compatible with the commandment of Christ that we love one another, even our enemies? Which do we believe? That it was okay for the invading Israelites to murder who tribes or that we should follow his teaching centered around love?

  I choose the latter. To me personally the thought that the Lord would demand such bloodthirsty savagery is an outrageous libel against the God I worship. Those writing these accounts, in my opinion, were trying to justify their vicious mayhem by trying to hide behind God. 

  Many years ago, I picked up "Age of Reason" by Tom Paine. Now, there is much in it with which I do not agreem though he had enormous admiration for Christ. But I recall how he made two points that resonated with me during those teenage years. I had been taught and believed that the first five books of the Old Testament ("The Books of Moses") were written by Moses. Two problems that Paine noted still stick in my mind. (1) If Moses wrote those five books, how come the last of them records his death and burial? (2) If Moses wrote these books, would he have written that "Moses was the meekest man who ever lived". Would a meek man write such a thing?

 For those who insist that everything in the Bible is totally free from error, fine. We disagree. 'Different strokes for different folks'. I believe that God-commanded genocide is an outrageous falsehood that is totally incompatible with the basic Christian proclamation that God is love. 

 Some of you dismiss this as egotism, rebelliousness, whatever. To me it is based on Biblical teaching plus reason/logic. 

 God bless everybody. I'm for an atmosphere where Christians agree to disagree rather than condemn one another because we may not see eye to eye. I would rather not see eye to eye than adhere to the principle, rejected by Jesus, that we should render 'an eye for an eye". That can leave everybody blind. Maybe Christians should re-read the words of Christ in Matt. 5:35-48.

 

[GuanYuWarGod]

If a slave enters slavery of his own free will by swearing an oath to his master is it really slavery? We have created a society that allows for this to no longer be necessary all be it some would consider the welfare system as making people “slaves” of the government. I think its easy for us to stand up on our high horse now and put down all the people of the past, when we are blind to see all the toil and fear they went through in order for us to be where we are today. You should stop judging people of the past, who are long gone by now and have been judged by the true Judge.

This is why people in any society have to campaign for fairness and informed choices without fear or threat of physical, psychological, sexual abuse regardless of whether you live in 2000 BC or 2000 AD.

We don’t like God’s judgment here because he killed innocents as well as the soldiers of the Amalek people. However if they only killed the soldiers of the Amalek people, what would have happened by the next generation? They would have sprung up with a new army or the women of the Amalek people would have come and corrupted the men of the Israelite’s. A harsh reality called for a harsh judgment. This is turn though fell on the shoulders of the Israelite’s because killing them was only necessary because they were all too weak to prevent themselves from being corrupted by them. You have to understand how civilizations reacted to each other back then to understand why God took the steps he did.

Nate13, can you imagine what an absolutely barbaric world we would live in now if we executed all the civilians during/after war? Not just the men but executing the women, children, infants down to their livestock? Can you imagine if we applied your reasoning on the Germans after WWII and killed every German man, woman, child, and infant after the war and eliminated Germany from today’s map of the world? Slaughter them all for living under the Nazi Regime? What happen’s to individual justice and accountability?