Violent and troubling bible passage

[Petergee]

I was joking about needing bear repellant for the she-bears that might come after me. It was a joke.

I read the Messner article. Thanks for sharing that. It seems like other people are disturbed by this as well, so I’m not alone.

It doesn’t really change things if the victims were not “little children.” A God that would inflict such a disproportionate response on anyone, of any age, is one that I cannot worship. The justifications presented here make my stomach turn.

You mention only ONE of the facts Messner points out. The inescapable conclusion from ALL of the facts he points out, is that the response was not at all disproportionate, but Divinely just.

This is just one of many violent passages in the OT. There are many others where God lays waste to cities, encourages or demands mass murder, rape, and incest. God comes off as more like Saddam Hussein than “God is Love.” … My mind cannot get past this brutality and I cannot reconcile this with my own feelings about morality.

do you think that God “laid waste” to Haiti? You can’t impose your own feelings about moral standards on God; it’s your job to obey the laws He gives you.

Another passage that has troubled me for years is:

“Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man.” (Numbers 31:17-18)

Yikes.

As with every OT passage, it only truly makes sense in the light of the NT. God wanted His chosen people to be free from the idolatry of other races and tribes. A prototype of His Church in the NT. Instead of revealing all the Truth at once, God gradually led the Israelites out of primitive barbarity to His Truth and Love.

A couple of other points about this story:

1. The inspired author specifically notes that they were** she**-bears. Bears are very strong and powrful, but they do not prey upon man, and they will not go out of their way to attack a man unless provoked. But a she-bear will unhesitatingly attack anyone she perceives is a threat to her cubs, even if heavily outnumbered. A think the story is pointing out that the big crowd of hooligans who confonted and ridiculed God’s chosen prophet Elisha, were leading young Israelites away from the True Faith. Have a look what our Saviour says about the same sort of people (Matt 18:6, Luke 17:2) - pretty violent language from Jesus against people who merely say to a young Catholic things like “Hey you know what your pope, bishop and priest tell you might not be true” - a “disproportionate” response?

Also note the she-bears “mauled” or “injured” the ypoung men, not “tore them to pieces”.

 

[Petergee]

OK, so let’s make these kids 30-50 year old bikers, most of them murderers and ex-cons, shouting the gravest insults in our culture at nobody other than the Pope. Actually, let’s make it one better: they’re Romans soldiers crucifying Christ.

Did or would the Christian God cause she-bears to appear to inflict divine retribution? That’s not recorded. The best evidence, which was recorded, is from the mouth of God himself:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Jews and Romans mocked him as he was dying, and he never uttered a word, or asked for his Father’s retribution. No she-bears in sight. Very consistent with Christ’s message of forgiveness.

How can anyone reconcile the great disparities between these two reactions from the same God?

No disparity. The people who executed and mocked Jesus thought He was a blasphemer, and so they did just what God had told them to do to blasphemers. (If there were any of them who miocked Him knowing Who He was, they have surely received dire punishment far wose than being swatted by a she-bear.)

The hooligans who attacked Elisha knew exactly what they were doing. They knew he was the prophet of God and was calling them to obey God’s law and give up their idolatry and the sexual immorality that went with it. They didn’t want to.

 

[Stephen5]

He is the Lord:

If one thinks this is just figurative language … better think again

Psalms
2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Revelation
6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Dorothy]

Reading this thread has made me aware that there are passages in the Bible that are not easy for us, with our finite human mentality, to comprehend. I appreciated those, who having more Scripture knowledge than myself, were able to shed more light on the passages.

I thank the Holy Spirit who enables me to conclude that when there is a passage of Sacred Scripture that is not fully understandable, then it is because it was not given to me to fully understand it. Perhaps at a later time it might be, but meanwhile I know that our Lord is All-Holy, All- Powerful, All Merciful, and All-Just.

I trust Him, and I can rest in that.

 

[Cristian_B]

And a sin that God deems punishable by death? The same God who later said to “turn the other cheek” and “go the extra mile” can’t stand someone mocking his prophet’s bald head? What about practice what you preach?

At that time it was “eye for an eye” and “tooth for a tooth”.

 

[Cristian_B]

OK, so let’s make these kids 30-50 year old bikers, most of them murderers and ex-cons, shouting the gravest insults in our culture at nobody other than the Pope. Actually, let’s make it one better: they’re Romans soldiers crucifying Christ.

Did or would the Christian God cause she-bears to appear to inflict divine retribution? That’s not recorded. The best evidence, which was recorded, is from the mouth of God himself:

“Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Jews and Romans mocked him as he was dying, and he never uttered a word, or asked for his Father’s retribution. No she-bears in sight. Very consistent with Christ’s message of forgiveness.

How can anyone reconcile the great disparities between these two reactions from the same God? I haven’t seen anyone try that yet here. Just a lot of reading into the text nothing that actually is in it, that is somehow meant to justify God causing she-bears to tear some whipper-snappers limb-from-limb for making insults. I haven’t yet seen anyone take on the morality of God’s disproportionate action in doing so, just justifications for what might have set him off.

You fail to understand the Law. There is a difference between Jesus and Elijah’s successor. Jesus was dying because of what the Jews did. When Jesus said: “forgive them Father” He actually said: “Father, I’m dying in their steads”. The punishment of sin is death. Jesus was punished instead of us. “eye for an eye”. It is still applying. But since Jesus took all punishment from God upon Himself, He “gave His eye instead of ours”, so to speak. He said: “bless your enemies” because there was no reason to ask God to curse them, since Jesus was cursed (in a certain sense) instead of the sinner. The one who repents is not cursed by God becasue Jesus was “cursed” in the Christian’s stead. When we curse, we wish God to punish the sinner, but God punished His Son instead of the sinner, and that is why we “bless our enemies”, not because it is a new law, but because the curses are “fulfilled”, so to speak, and only blessings remain. I am in a hurry so I could not choose my words better, but I hope you will understand what I’m trying to say.

edit: it is not like we do not have to stone sinners anymore, but it is that Jesus was stoned instead of the sinner; it is not like the sinner does not have to die, but it is that Jesus died instead of the sinner. Since Jesus took upon Himself all the wrath of God, and freed the Christians from it, then there are only blessings remaining. You can either bless or curse (wish someone to be punished). Since Jesus was punished instead, then only blessings remain. That is why it is said: "bless instead of curse"

 

[rwillenborg]

Okay, wait a minute, so these bears ripped 42 of the young men apart, right? If they got 42 of them, how many were there total in that group? 50? 60? 70?
I might be guilty of what another poster pointed out, which is to look at this story through 21st century American glasses, but, uh…
I was born, raised, and still live in Detroit. If a group of 50 or 60, heck, even if it were just 42 young men approached me, even if every single one of them were no more than 13 years old and started making fun of me…that means something VERY BAD is about to happen to me. I mean very bad, like death. A group of young men, actually ESPECIALLY if they were still very young men, with nothing better to do than make fun of me and follow me around? Yeah, this was FAR MORE than teasing. Again, I might be guilty of seeing this through dark-colored glasses as it were, but I have trouble believing a group of 42 young men who clearly aren’t being very nice, would stop at just calling someone baldy.
And I have a different question. Can two bears really maul 42 boys? Seriously, did ANY of them run? 42 boys, of any age, could beat down a bear. It’s the numbers in this passage that have me thinking more than the event itself. So, I have to say this, too…in my head if I am to belive that two bears mauled 42 boys, I don’t know how they could have torn them all limb from limb. BEars can be aggressive, but, come on, 42 boys?

 

[Cristian_B]

Okay, wait a minute, so these bears ripped 42 of the young men apart, right? If they got 42 of them, how many were there total in that group? 50? 60? 70?
I might be guilty of what another poster pointed out, which is to look at this story through 21st century American glasses, but, uh…
I was born, raised, and still live in Detroit. If a group of 50 or 60, heck, even if it were just 42 young men approached me, even if every single one of them were no more than 13 years old and started making fun of me…that means something VERY BAD is about to happen to me. I mean very bad, like death. A group of young men, actually ESPECIALLY if they were still very young men, with nothing better to do than make fun of me and follow me around? Yeah, this was FAR MORE than teasing. Again, I might be guilty of seeing this through dark-colored glasses as it were, but I have trouble believing a group of 42 young men who clearly aren’t being very nice, would stop at just calling someone baldy.
And I have a different question. Can two bears really maul 42 boys? Seriously, did ANY of them run? 42 boys, of any age, could beat down a bear. It’s the numbers in this passage that have me thinking more than the event itself. So, I have to say this, too…in my head if I am to belive that two bears mauled 42 boys, I don’t know how they could have torn them all limb from limb. BEars can be aggressive, but, come on, 42 boys?

God was on the bears’ side in that case. Also, leaving the joke aside, the fear factor a bear produces is quite big. I don’t think that the group of men acted like a real gang. I barely believe that they had any team work at all. And when one kid starts screaming the others, because of the “contagious” fear, start screaming as well, and voila! no unity, everyone screaming around, everyone goes on their own way… the bears could have easily kill them one by one. They were adolescents, they weren’t in the army, they weren’t trained to work in groups.

 

[JValentinus]

No disparity. The people who executed and mocked Jesus thought He was a blasphemer, and so they did just what God had told them to do to blasphemers. (If there were any of them who miocked Him knowing Who He was, they have surely received dire punishment far wose than being swatted by a she-bear.)

I didn’t know that the Romans had been instructed by God to do anything. Weren’t they pagans?

The hooligans who attacked Elisha knew exactly what they were doing. They knew he was the prophet of God and was calling them to obey God’s law and give up their idolatry and the sexual immorality that went with it. They didn’t want to.

Exactly where in the text does it say this? I don’t see it anywhere.

I can make up stuff too that isn’t in the text to support my arguments, but I don’t do so.

 

[JValentinus]

You mention only ONE of the facts Messner points out. The inescapable conclusion from ALL of the facts he points out, is that the response was not at all disproportionate, but Divinely just.
do you think that God “laid waste” to Haiti? You can’t impose your own feelings about moral standards on God; it’s your job to obey the laws He gives you.

This is the problem I have with this. I cannot assent to follow such a deity. If Yahweh is really a such cosmic bully, I can’t worship him, along with all of the other violent gods that people have believed in over time. I’m disturbed by an obvious and complete contradiction between the message of Jesus and the actions of his Father. You can say there is no contradiction, and that God can do whatever he wants, but is there no logical, coherent explanation for this, that doesn’t appeal to God’s right to do whatever he wants?

As with every OT passage, it only truly makes sense in the light of the NT. God wanted His chosen people to be free from the idolatry of other races and tribes. A prototype of His Church in the NT. Instead of revealing all the Truth at once, God gradually led the Israelites out of primitive barbarity to His Truth and Love.

This arguments still makes no sense. How are the she-bears linked to idolatry?

How come Buddhism is such a peaceful religion and rejects idolatry and sexual immorality without the need for constant violent action from God?

 

[JValentinus]

Reading this thread has made me aware that there are passages in the Bible that are not easy for us, with our finite human mentality, to comprehend. I appreciated those, who having more Scripture knowledge than myself, were able to shed more light on the passages.

I thank the Holy Spirit who enables me to conclude that when there is a passage of Sacred Scripture that is not fully understandable, then it is because it was not given to me to fully understand it. Perhaps at a later time it might be, but meanwhile I know that our Lord is All-Holy, All- Powerful, All Merciful, and All-Just.

I trust Him, and I can rest in that.

I’m glad you feel that way, and I envy you. To me to accept such an approach would be to say, “stop thinking, and just believe.” I can’t do that! I have an unquenchable to desire to understand everything that I can about the world. Why would God fill the Bible with stuff we’re not supposed to understand? Why rely on it at all for anything, then?

 

[Moscati]

the"daughters" of Babylon is a symbol for “sins” and the rock is a symbol for Jesus Christ .
That’s how St Augustin intepreted this psalm

“What are the little ones of Babylon? Evil desires at their birth. For there are, who have to fight with inveterate lusts. When lust is born, before evil habit giveth it strength against thee, when lust is little, by no means let it gain the strength of evil habit; when it is little, dash it. But thou fearest, lest though dashed it die not; “Dash it against the Rock; and that Rock is Christ.”(2)”
clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/index.htm

Reading Origen and St Augustin is helpful to interpret the Old Testament.

ps: forgive my bad english

Thanks for this–I do love to read Augustine; but he was so prolific I haven’t gotten to very much yet.

 

[Dorothy]

I’m glad you feel that way, and I envy you. To me to accept such an approach would be to say, “stop thinking, and just believe.” I can’t do that! I have an unquenchable to desire to understand everything that I can about the world. Why would God fill the Bible with stuff we’re not supposed to understand? Why rely on it at all for anything, then?

I was making the point that we are not to rely on our OWN understanding.

Jesus Christ is Lord!

I am not a Bible Scholar, and don’t have the propensity to be one.

I can’t bring myself to nitpick details that don’t jibe with what others think.

I believe I can trust the Lord in the Old Testament and the New.

 

[Luke_K]

This is the problem I have with this. I cannot assent to follow such a deity. If Yahweh is really a such cosmic bully, I can’t worship him, along with all of the other violent gods that people have believed in over time. I’m disturbed by an obvious and complete contradiction between the message of Jesus and the actions of his Father. You can say there is no contradiction, and that God can do whatever he wants, but is there no logical, coherent explanation for this, that doesn’t appeal to God’s right to do whatever he wants?

It seems to me like your perception of God and humanity is that we deserve everything we desire, and God is obliged to give it to us. You’re rejecting the consequences and complexity of free will. In brief, God originally made humanity in a perfect state with no suffering, no sadness, and no evil. We chose to reject that paradise in favor of loving ourselves. We are a stiff-necked people, as God describes us. We prefer sadness and death and evil to God, and most of the time we can’t even admit or see that we are doing so. Do you think that God is going to win us back by giving us more independence and “stuff” to indulge ourselves in preference to Him? No! The process of bringing ourselves back to him is painful and harsh! See my signature.

There is a much bigger issue going on here for you besides the problem of evil. I mentioned it already. You have expressed the desire to believe, but feel your intelligence is getting in the way. It is a difficult, humbling, and initially repulsive thing to hear, but you need to accept that everyone, including you, are made foolish and crack their heads on the truth of the Bible. You must make yourself like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven, Christ says.

There is a book by Benedict Groeschel describing the psychology of spiritual development. In his description of the second phase of the first stage of spiritual development, faith, he says,

The religious belief of adolescence is based on clarity of ideas, or “what makes sense.” Certitude or clarity in the last analysis is mostly a subjective experience. This may not be philosophically true, but it is unquestionably true psychologically. What is clear to one person is not clear to another. Since clarity is relatively subjective, it is also intrinsically tentative and its tentative quality can be observed in two maladaptive attitudes: fanaticism and chronic uncertainty…

The greatest pitfall in moving towards mature faith, however, is not the false certitude of fanaticism, but rather a permanent fixation in an endless series of more sophisticated speculation. Some rather intellectually gifted people fall into the trap of repetitive experiences of tentative clarity, and interminable defense of these experiences…It is not unusual to find Christians of real intelligence and sensitivity wasting years formulating subtle theories and distinctions, yet failing to make the leap into faith which is beyond such exercises.

The solution to the dilemma is the leap into mature faith. This phrase may annoy those who need most to take the leap; thus a psychological analysis of mature faith may be helpful…

As we have seen, the faith of adolescence is based on clear ideas tentatively held until better explanations have been found. Mature faith, according to St. John of the Cross, is the opposite. Instead of being tentative it is certain because the author of this faith is God. In the case of mature faith, divine grace breaks into the ordinary processes of cognition through revelation and the personal enlightenment which enables the individual to believe. One cannot stress enough that mature faith, like the final struggles of moral integration, reveals personally and unmistakably the power of a dynamism outside self, namely, grace. I seriously question whether anyone who is subjectively unaware of this experience has arrived at the later phases of the purgative way.

…[St. John of the Cross says,] “…faith is not a knowledge derived from the senses, but an assent of the soul to what enters through hearing.”

This is not a purely Christian experience. As the author of that book says, “The spiritual illumination resulting from God’s grace is possible to members of all world religions and all spiritual seekers; [but] it is most correctly and fully understood in its constitutive elements when one is guided by Scripture and Christian tradition.” (although I’m sure that he wouldn’t include in that statement certain religious cults like Satanism or Wiccan…)

What I am trying to tell you is not “You need to throw away your intelligence for good if you want to be Christian.” What I’m saying is you need to humbly accept that even if you do arrive at an understanding of this issue, there will be many more in the future that will trouble you even more. I guarantee that there are many devout religious people who could come up with greater objections to our faith than anything you could think of, yet they still believe and you don’t. That is because they have humbly accepted and integrated the truth of Jesus’ message into their lives and the divine grace of faith that God has graciously gifted them. They have accepted that their sinfulness impedes their understanding.

“Creator of all things, true source of light and wisdom, origin of all being, graciously let a ray of your light penetrate the darkness of my understanding. Take from me the double darkness in which I have been born, an obscurity of sin and ignorance…Point out the beginning, direct the progress, and help in the completion. I ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.”

 

[Dorothy]

It seems to me like your perception of God and humanity is that we deserve everything we desire, and God is obliged to give it to us. You’re rejecting the consequences and complexity of free will. In brief, God originally made humanity in a perfect state with no suffering, no sadness, and no evil. We chose to reject that paradise in favor of loving ourselves. We are a stiff-necked people, as God describes us. We prefer sadness and death and evil to God, and most of the time we can’t even admit or see that we are doing so. Do you think that God is going to win us back by giving us more independence and “stuff” to indulge ourselves in preference to Him? No! The process of bringing ourselves back to him is painful and harsh! See my signature.

There is a much bigger issue going on here for you besides the problem of evil. I mentioned it already. You have expressed the desire to believe, but feel your intelligence is getting in the way. It is a difficult, humbling, and initially repulsive thing to hear, but you need to accept that everyone, including you, are made foolish and crack their heads on the truth of the Bible. You must make yourself like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven, Christ says.

There is a book by Benedict Groeschel describing the psychology of spiritual development. In his description of the second phase of the first stage of spiritual development, faith, he says,

This is not a purely Christian experience. As the author of that book says, “The spiritual illumination resulting from God’s grace is possible to members of all world religions and all spiritual seekers; [but] it is most correctly and fully understood in its constitutive elements when one is guided by Scripture and Christian tradition.” (although I’m sure that he wouldn’t include in that statement certain religious cults like Satanism or Wiccan…)

What I am trying to tell you is not “You need to throw away your intelligence for good if you want to be Christian.” What I’m saying is you need to humbly accept that even if you do arrive at an understanding of this issue, there will be many more in the future that will trouble you even more. I guarantee that there are many devout religious people who could come up with greater objections to our faith than anything you could think of, yet they still believe and you don’t. That is because they have humbly accepted and integrated the truth of Jesus’ message into their lives and the divine grace of faith that God has graciously gifted them. They have accepted that their sinfulness impedes their understanding.

“Creator of all things, true source of light and wisdom, origin of all being, graciously let a ray of your light penetrate the darkness of my understanding. Take from me the double darkness in which I have been born, an obscurity of sin and ignorance…Point out the beginning, direct the progress, and help in the completion. I ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.”

Excellent Post!

 

[JValentinus]

I agree, it is a very good post, thanks for taking the time to compose it. It makes some sense, but unfortunately doesn’t do anything for me. Sorry for troubling you folks. So long.

 

[Luke_K]

Exactly where in the text does it say this? I don’t see it anywhere.

I can make up stuff too that isn’t in the text to support my arguments, but I don’t do so.

Elisha was wearing the mantle of Elijah. In the beginning of Chapter 2, Elijah went to Bethel at the command of the Lord and Elisha accompanied him. The guild prophets there asked Elisha if he knew that God was going to take Elijah from him that day.

So it is not unreasonable in the least to assume that because Elijah, a prophet of God, had been in Bethel, and that Elisha was wearing the mantle of Elijah (2: 13-14), that the people knew that Elisha was a prophet of God and what he was doing.

Perhaps you’re reading too little of the text. Have you read the entire story of Elijah and Elisha before presuming that there is no other plausible interpretation than your own? How about all the books of the Bible preceding 2 Kings?

 

[warpspeedpetey]

The following is a passage that troubles me greatly. Some boys make fun of a prophet’s bald head, and as a consequence two she-bears rip 42 of them limb-from-limb. This is quite an overreaction, and doesn’t seem consistent with “God is Love.”

2 Kings 2:23-24 [NIV]

Elisha left Jericho to go to Bethel and on the way some boys came out of a town and made fun of him. “Get out of here, Baldy!” they shouted. Elisha turned around, glared at them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys to pieces.

Any takers?

sure. its really very easy.

death is no big deal to G-d. it is tantamount to sending your kids to bed early as a punishment.

you may think that death is some horrible thing becuase you want to stay here. kids think bedtime is a horrible thing too.

so… big deal

this was way too easy

p.s.

the niv is a protestant version of the Bible that is incomplete. use our Bibles, you can find them online easily enough here

usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml

 

[Luke_K]

death is no big deal to G-d. it is tantamount to sending your kids to bed early as a punishment.

Uh, no. Look at a crucifix, please.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Uh, no. Look at a crucifix, please.

physical death from G-ds point of view isnt permanent. nobody wants to die, and certainly not Christ… i dont think that the Crucifixion changes that.